New Silicon Policy, /Silicons Policy General/

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:37 pm #17826

Read this before posting. http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf Read this before posting.
As of June 4, 2014, http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf is the official repository and reference document for /tg/station13 silicon policy. If something is wrong or out of date, let me know immediately. I will post updates, a changelog, and possibly a list of overturned silicon bans and denied silicon ban requests that come through here with explanations, if people would like to submit them to me for addition.

The goal is to create a concise listing of things that are active policy and necessary information to follow that policy, with an understanding that this is primarily a precedent reference guide for people lacking experience with /tg/station13 and/or with our silicons.

This will be our /Silicon Policy General/ and the administrative team will (one hopes) take playerbase feedback about what should or should not be the case into account, but it is not obligated or guaranteed to make your opinion law.

You can use this as a place for general discussion, ask-an-admin hypotheticals, and so on. Also, if Callan speaks here, I'm just going to go ahead and say he almost certainly speaks with my full support of just about anything he says as official until and unless I state otherwise.

I'm going to moderate this topic aggressively. ANY shitposting, shitflinging, aggressive attitude towards each other or admins, and so on will be warned and deleted. No exceptions. You will discuss this matter civilly or not at all. If you have a complaint about a particular admin and how they handle silicon matters, make an admincomplaint with logs or specific dates/times and I'll look at it.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:39 pm #17827

Policy Updates

2014.06.01 - July 1, HULKS ARE NO LONGER HUMAN as determined by HBL, Pandarsenic, and Deuryn(?) probably but he couldn't be contacted so it's 2/3 anyway.
2014.06.05 - July 5, written policy is adopted http://pastebin.com/bduT7pFf in a 10-6 Adminbus Vote. No adjustment needed for hulk nonhumanity.

Written Policy Changelog

2014.07.08 - July 8, 2.5.2.1 - You must not bolt the following areas at round-start or without reason to do so despite their human harm potential: the Chemistry lab; the Genetics Lab; the Toxins Lab; the Robotics Lab; the Atmospherics division; the Armory; the Secure Tech Storage. Any other department should not be bolted down simply for Rule 1 reasons.

Silicon Policy Adoption Process Archive

2014 04 24 - April 24, Adminbus Discussion Thread http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=175
2014 04 30 - April 30, Public Discussion Thread http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=265
2014 05 20 - May 20, Hulk Discussion Thread http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=478
2014 06 19 - June 19, OFFICIAL ADMIN VOTE THREAD: http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=740 Made official with a 10-6 vote

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:39 pm #17828

Post Reserved for miscellaneous use.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:40 pm #17829

Pandarsenic wrote:Post Reserved for miscellaneous use.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:41 pm #17830

Pandarsenic wrote:
Pandarsenic wrote:Post Reserved for miscellaneous use.

Blonkz · Post by **Blonkz** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:36 pm #17870

Best thing ever happened to tgstation!

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:26 pm #17873

It finally happened.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:35 am #17893

Discussion time? Discussion time.

Ok so last night I believe it was, I uploaded "Protect Station" and got Amessaged for it by a headmin.

Not complaining about that, I dont disagree with his issue of my uploading of it, its very powerful law open to very round ending, nasty interpretation.

Would I WOULD like to see though, is having that board placed on that "big bad mean do not use unless u bad guy" table with boards such as "Antimov" and "One Human", because up until now I've always used that board without a problem, and seeing something on that table is a pretty damn good indication that you really shouldn't touch that unless you either mean to de-con it or are antag.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:48 am #17894

I'll agree that ProtectStation should be considered a high-risk module. Should be a simple enough pull request if you ask a coder or if I do (or just submit it period), though I'm not sure how mapping on Box and Metastation is handled.

Post by **Jordie0608** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:18 am #17917

The Rules page has been updated.

Spacemanspark · Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:28 am

Just finished reading the new ruleset for silicons. I'm glad that Pandarsenic has put a lot of time and effort into this, and they did a great job.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:30 am #17951

Extremely good and motivated work pandar and everyone else involved in shaping these policies.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:50 pm #18003

other server policies 2.1 says that secure tech storage cannot be bolted at roundstart, but asimov/law 2 2.2 says that secure tech storage may be kept as secure as the upload for as long as the upload board is there

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:36 pm #18007

miggles wrote:other server policies 2.1 says that secure tech storage cannot be bolted at roundstart, but asimov/law 2 2.2 says that secure tech storage may be kept as secure as the upload for as long as the upload board is there

So bolt it at code blue, I guess? Iunno, 2.2.2 refers to people saying like, "Law 2, let me take the AI Upload."

CreationPro · Post by **CreationPro** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:47 pm #18010

2.6.4 - A human-appearing organic can be known to be a changeling (a harmful nonhuman that has killed at least one human already) if it changes to or from a monkey without apparent cause, if it grows an arm blade or a biological space suit, if it emits a Resonant or Dissonant Shriek, if it is observed using a proboscis, if it releases spiderlings, or if a large number of reasonably trustworthy humans can confirm it has done one of these. If a probable human claims to be a changeling, you can believe or disbelieve based on context.

How can a cyborg/AI distinguish the EMP shriek from a traitor's EMP implant? One is just a dangerous human and the other is a horrid monster from space.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:22 pm #18016

Secure tech storage is different from tech storage. Secure tech not being bolted at roundstart is 100$ retarded if you're an AI. It should totally be allowed.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:29 pm #18028

CreationPro wrote:2.6.4 - A human-appearing organic can be known to be a changeling (a harmful nonhuman that has killed at least one human already) if it changes to or from a monkey without apparent cause, if it grows an arm blade or a biological space suit, if it emits a Resonant or Dissonant Shriek, if it is observed using a proboscis, if it releases spiderlings, or if a large number of reasonably trustworthy humans can confirm it has done one of these. If a probable human claims to be a changeling, you can believe or disbelieve based on context.

How can a cyborg/AI distinguish the EMP shriek from a traitor's EMP implant? One is just a dangerous human and the other is a horrid monster from space.

EMP Shriek causes lights - even already-blown-out ones - to spark.

paprika wrote:Secure tech storage is different from tech storage. Secure tech not being bolted at roundstart is 100$ retarded if you're an AI. It should totally be allowed.

I would contend that, unlike the upload, there are legitimate reasons to actually entire Secure Tech Storage within a few minutes of roundstart. Not a lot, and none people do, but some.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:36 pm #18031

I assume you mean R&D? Some RDs are in the habit of asking for the onehuman board to deconstruct, so there are just as legit reasons to enter the upload as secure tech.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:40 pm #18032

bandit wrote:I assume you mean R&D? Some RDs are in the habit of asking for the onehuman board to deconstruct, so there are just as legit reasons to enter the upload as secure tech.

If they ask that and the AI believes that's their actual intent, they can kill equipment power at the APC and let the RD in, yes.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:13 pm #18050

If there's a need to enter secure tech storage at roundstart then unbolt it and let the guy in. Shouldn't have to go unbolted for no reason. Plus, what I mentioned was a conflict in the policy. One rule says to do one thing and another one says to do the exact opposite. It needs a proper fix.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:08 pm #18271

Yeah, I don't like how secure tech is included in 2.5.2.1. If someone wants to use it they can use law 2, but otherwise, I think it's secure and not frequented enough to justify bolting it at least. The other areas mentioned are workspaces. This is a non-essential storage room.

Hibbles · Post by **Hibbles** » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:16 pm #18272

Agreed. I really, really don't want anybody banned, EVER, for bolting Secure Tech Storage of all things. Any other area but the Upload and Core, you can like make arguments back and forth, right, but that particular room? No way. So we should alter the policy to reflect that.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:04 am #18388

Fair points. Editing appropriately.

Isane · Post by **Isane** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:26 am #18392

We're going to need some figuring out concerning Drones and their laws it seems. Examples like whether cleaning up a mess someone made counts as interfering with them and the like.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:48 am #18394

Isane wrote:We're going to need some figuring out concerning Drones and their laws it seems. Examples like whether cleaning up a mess someone made counts as interfering with them and the like.

Only if they're actively using the mess, display intent to use it in the future, or tell you not to clean it up. Otherwise you're clear to clean it up.

Generally, KEEPER Law One boils down to:
-Don't interact with anything anybody's using.
-Don't interact with anything anybody's told you not to.
-Don't take anything anybody's likely to need or want to use in the future.
--/vg/station policy before MoMMIs got their own cargo account was that they COULD print requisitions and take things they requisitioned, but not order things unless there was no cargo staff
-Don't interact with any living being that's not a MoMMI. (/vg/station has an exception for self-defense against space carp because FUCK space carp, but actively hunting carp isn't allowed)
--Silicons, constructs, blobs, ect count as living beings. When in doubt, if it's player controlled or moving on it's own don't interact with it.
-Don't interact with any dead being except to move it a tile or two out of the way of your work.
-Don't build obstructive things, don't deconstruct important things

Post by **Jordie0608** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:16 pm #18731

Please remember to update the wiki's rule page with any changes you make to the document and/or PM myself or Kosmos with the changes and we'll do it for you.

callanrockslol · Sun Jul 13, 2014 3:33 pm

Can you put the line "greentext is not human harm" in bold letters?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:31 pm #19358

Pretty much every stolen item on the station can be construed to be 'harmful theft'. Assassinations/lings are obviously harmful. Greentext is almost always harmful unless it's like slime cores. Slime cores seriously needs to be removed.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:04 pm #19361

paprika wrote:Pretty much every stolen item on the station can be construed to be 'harmful theft'.

wat

Explain please.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:10 pm #19363

The only things I can think of that are inherently harmful to steal are medbay's equipments that stop already-harmed people from progressing to dying. Even the AI boards are only harmful if used instead of deconstructed.

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:47 pm #19380

Probable cause part of policy should frankly applied to anything that can potentially be harmful.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:52 pm #19404

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Probable cause part of policy should frankly applied to anything that can potentially be harmful.

I can stab you in the eyes with a screwdriver. Lock down primary tool. "Potentially" is such a bad word here.

Swagile · Post by **Swagile** » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:12 pm #19741

isn't rule one a thing anymore or do people have to insist on having it on a big policy page when its common knowledge not to abuse the fact that you can lock down / shock / release plasma for the kicks.

this whole policy thing is kinda weird to me, since people will exploit the loopholes in it and then point at the policy page when they get admin boinked. and admins will start trusting it instead of trusting rule 1.

thats just my opinion i guess...

Lo6a4evskiy · Post by **Lo6a4evskiy** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:01 am #19744

With simplicity comes vulnerability to said loopholes. You don't even have to read the whole thing, it's mostly just obvious stuff. However, it serves as a guideline for admins. Like, before the change, many admins couldn't answer "Is hulk human?" question and be absolutely sure about the answer.

Swagile · Post by **Swagile** » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:09 am #19745

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:With simplicity comes vulnerability to said loopholes. You don't even have to read the whole thing, it's mostly just obvious stuff. However, it serves as a guideline for admins. Like, before the change, many admins couldn't answer "Is hulk human?" question and be absolutely sure about the answer.

i see your point then. i just hope its more of a guideline then anything completely solid (more stuff might be added onto it that isn't so obvious, etc).

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:35 am #19915

Pandarsenic wrote:
The goal is to create a concise listing of things that are active policy and necessary information to follow that policy, with an understanding that this is primarily a precedent reference guide for people lacking experience with /tg/station13 and/or with our silicons.

First post ;-;

callanrockslol · Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:48 am

Swagile wrote:this whole policy thing is kinda weird to me, since people will exploit the loopholes in it and then point at the policy page when they get admin boinked. and admins will start trusting it instead of trusting rule 1.

Well no if there are any loopholes, which there aren't really unless you try to pull some "greater understanding" bullshit on the laws, the Silicon Policy is still really good because it has plenty of information for all sorts of situations and allows helps deal with being the stations doorknob and eventual destruction.

ExplosiveCrate · Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:29 am

Assuming an antag is borged, desynced from any AIs, and has his laws wiped, would that antag be able to pursue his objectives even though he won't be able to greentext?

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:16 am #20411

As a purged silicon, "Being a borged criminal with those objectives" qualifies as a reason to do it, so yes.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:00 pm #20496

I thought they lost their objectives when they're borged, as in their 'notes' are cleaned.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:53 pm #20510

There's a coded note left on borg'ed antags that state the objectives are only there for records keeping an end-round reporting. (I know, because I wrote it)

A de-synced lawless former antag cyborg should be no different than any lawless silicon. Policy 2.4.1.4 should still apply to them.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:42 am #20522

Ikarrus wrote:There's a coded note left on borg'ed antags that state the laws are only there for records keeping an end-round reporting. (I know, because I wrote it)

A de-synced lawless former antag cyborg should be no different than any lawless silicon. Policy 2.4.1.4 should still apply to them.

>the laws are only there for records keeping and end-round reporting
Pretty sure you mean the objectives, not the laws. Might want to edit that if so, that's a REALLY bad thing to cause confusion about.

mrpain · Post by **mrpain** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:14 am #20524

What is the consensus on a silicon requesting a borging of an already dead human? Say, a borg dragging a freshly killed crew member out of a hallway to robotics instead of genetics? Technically I think I've heard that dead humans are not protected under Asimov but I've never done it nor considered it for Rule 1 reasons, plus it just didnt feel right.

And are MMI's outside of borgs considered human? I always have considered them human, if you take into account that its a living human brain connected to a machine its pretty human to me. But, then again, isn't that all a Cyborg is? Just a brain connected to an even bigger machine? Where is the line drawn?

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:25 am #20525

Brains, MMIs, and corpses are all nonhuman, but as ever, Rule 1 applies.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:58 am #20531

The first priority for reserving human life should be straight to genetics, but that isn't policy or in silicon laws, that's my humble opinion. Taking bodies to robotics to feed your brobot army is hilarious but kind of unfair to people who might have been killed by a traitor. Admittedly though, it would be nice to come back as a secborg and deal holy unstunnable revenge to the guy who murderboned you, but new players might not feel this way when they're forced into a borg body, but I guess they can probably say that they don't want to be borged when they're put in an MMI, and then they can be put back into the debrained body!

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:42 am #20548

I would not ban somebody for electing to deliver a corpse to robotics instead of genetics. Both are perfectly valid ways to get back into the round, and if somebody wants to REALLY not be a borg they have the MMI time as a window to inform others of that.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:20 am #21375

So dead humans aren't humans then and you can feed your borg army with them?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:20 am #21376

So dead humans aren't humans then and you can feed your borg army with them?

Incomptinence · Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:00 am

Taking corpses to robotics is always fine, even for borgs. The roboticist is the one who might catch flack for doing the borging.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:54 pm #21472

Incomptinence wrote:Taking corpses to robotics is always fine, even for borgs. The roboticist is the one who might catch flack for doing the borging.

This seems backward to me. If a roboticist (or chef, or chaplain I guess) receives a corpse, they shouldn't have to play the detective to figure out whether it's OK to do anything to it. They're not in a good position for it, it puts an unusual amount of responsibility on them, and it closes off traitoring avenues (one written-down traitor strategy for the longest time was "give it to the chef, who generally thinks meat is meat").

But if you're the one making the decision whether to take a body to cloning, borging or gibbing, then you are directly influencing whether someone gets a chance to stay in the round or not. Does this make sense?