/tg/Station 13

What is the appropriate response when security attacks you/abuses you/arrests you FNR for 20 minutes?

Adminhelping about cell times or false arrests is generally "IC issue," but retaliating violently will get you banned. If you retaliate non violently they'll "escalate" to murdering you or permabrigging you. They're allowed to break into anywhere they want, take what they want, etc. Nobody IC will care because everyone knows they can't be antagonists.

Is there an appropriate response other than rolling over and dying/letting the guy mess with your round?

And no this isn't just about that recent ban appeal, this has been something that's been bothering me for a while. We have a class of player who is more or less rules free yet it's bannable to retaliate or protect yourself.

We're at this shitty inbetween where sec gets free reign because we gave them more leniency to deal with an uprising of general shitters, pubbies and people in general see an "IC issue" happen so they go and take that as they can fuck about and do dumb shit if they join sec. Then they do so and here we are.

This is the polar opposite to say, when SoS was around and sec wasn't allowed to do anything, so nobody played it, then the shittery started to rise.

It's like the actual tide, and this is probably the start of the crackdown back into SoS-tier shitting on sec until it loops back around to where we are now again.

It's like the actual tide, and this is probably the start of the crackdown back into SoS-tier shitting on sec until it loops back around to where we are now again.

Trapped in the cycles of our griff

Kor wrote: And no this isn't just about that recent ban appeal

And while it's not exclusively about that ban, "guy and his friend broke into your department without provocation, shot you, shot your boss, hit you with a toolbox" and then you get banned for killing them is a pretty great example of the rules being completely different when one guy is wearing red.

Kor is getting too pure for this sinful universe.

Really though, they should be subject to the same "act like an antag and get your cunt kicked in" as everyone else, for all another player without a sechud knows you could be a ling impersonating an officer, an antag assistant who sweet-talked the HoP/HoS into a transfer into sec, or any number of things that foil the "sec officer, must be trustworthy even when they do rampantly untrustworthy things" meta.

Screemonster wrote:Kor is getting too pure for this sinful universe.

Really though, they should be subject to the same "act like an antag and get your cunt kicked in" as everyone else, for all another player without a sechud knows you could be a ling impersonating an officer, an antag assistant who sweet-talked the HoP/HoS into a transfer into sec, or any number of things that foil the "sec officer, must be trustworthy even when they do rampantly untrustworthy things" meta.

Argh but where do we draw the line "acting like an antag"? We already have people resorting to lethals over short brig sentences.

I agree that it's really not possible to talk to security. The other day I spent 15 minutes being dragged around in cuffs for getting teleported into the vault when there was apparently a brown medibot teleporting people everywhere. I tried explaining, with various levels of salt and rage, to the captain and two different security officers that I was teleported. Nobody listened until I repeatedly went to sleep on an officer who dragged me into interrogation for "illegal drugs"(I was a chemist) resulting in them dragging me back out, and a fourth officer finally asking the warden why I was even in the brig and the warden accepting my story because there was indeed a teleporting medibot strolling around.

Spending a quarter of a round not even actually jailed but instead dragged around because security is deaf as a post is shittier than getting double esworded to death 15 minutes in because you accidentally found the traitor in maint since apparently there is no higher authority than taser authority.

i usually just wait out my sentence and then avoid sec for the rest of the round, it works pretty much every time

Usually watch and note players and ckeys for repetitive security abuses that are really not warranted. Security isn't a license to be an asshole and we secban plenty for grievous abuse of the position. Yet at the same time you can't really help with security acts stupid and/or is new to their role which was the case that triggered this thread more than anything.

Theoretically this is the lawyer's realm

Quit bitching and impose a cutoff from new people for sec jobs. Sec is getting fucked by shitters who dindu nuffin and new people in sec jobs. Just Yesterday as HoS I had

A brig that got raided by roundstart sec new people who left to be assistants with sec gear
An HoP who was giving out sec access
A captain who two humaned the AI as nonantag without telling anyone
Grey tide slamming the station
A cult
And a warden that used all our mindshield implants on round start officers

You need to start widdling down sec pubbies. Lock out the new people, then focus on sec players who grief. For instance, excessive times and theft of gear.

You also have to keep in mind that each sec officer will time things differently and shitters will say they dindu nuffin. Yesterday I had an assistant who the HoP gave sec access to without my go ahead. So I detain him and drag him to the HoP to fix it. After that I pull him outside the HoP office to release him and he screams AI HOS IS HARMING ME! So I gulag the shitter for 300 points. He later claimed that pulling him outside the HoP office to release him was "pulling him all over the station cuffed".

There's a whole multitude of issues that need to be addressed first with code and then with moderation.

Code won't bloody work. For all we know, we might end up with less people and they're ALL shitters.

I was thinking about this as well.

I frequently play security and I feel sec is currently to heavily protected by admins.

Not in that the way that they should get bwoinked for every arrest again, but moderation strikes way to hard on people who oppose sec.

Sec does not need this babysitting, they can deal with people who try to mess with them just fine in game.

Archie700 wrote:Code won't bloody work. For all we know, we might end up with less people and they're ALL shitters.

Have you ever heard of quality over quantity?


What reason is there to not lock out new players from security? None. These people don't understand the modes nor the game.

So instead of having 3 competent officers but 4 new people who get robusted and stripped of their sec gear, ot hold people in place in the brig outside a cell for 20 minutes figuring out what to do, you have 3 competent officers

See, this is the issue with sec. New people can join and fuck over actual sec who know what they're doing. When you suggest keeping new people from sec they say NO THAT DOES NOTHING.

Have you considered that new players will just make a preference for sec?

Have you also considered that some of the old players may be shitters as well?

Archie700 wrote:Have you considered that new players will just make a preference for sec?

Have you considered that it's possible to code a round lockout so they have to learn the game first?

Jesus christ this selective reading.

>widdle down sec numbers to experienced players
>admins can easily check if it's just a new shitter because timelock kicked out most

PKPenguin321 wrote:i usually just wait out my sentence and then avoid sec for the rest of the round, it works pretty much every time

Avoiding sec for the rest of the round might work if you're an assistant, but most people would like to go to their workplace and do their job.

Incoming wrote:Theoretically this is the lawyer's realm

lol

I stopped playing security for ages because fucking pubbies shit it up., Take both servers off the hub, if you let in a tide of shit you can't expect the overflow to be clean as a whistle, security is getting singled out, but the engine getting freed every other round, bombs ripping open the station on extended and the armoury getting looted by non antags 'just in case we get attacked' are also symptoms of this. I had a five minute argument with the CE yesterday as the AI because he didn't think you needed emitters, he assumed the grounding rods kept the tesla in.

That is the level of newness that security is getting dumped on its lap. There are dozens of good security players that no one talks about because you never even deal with them if they're doing their job properly; the shitstaffel that we've got currently is a result of greener than grass people running into a job they don't understand the responsibility (and yes there is actual responsibility in playing sec seeing as how you can royally fuck someone without being called on your shit), to be honest it's infesting all command roles. Just add a timer to each department and a general one to sec, you have to play X amounts of rounds as X job to be eligible for department head, or you have to play X amount of time to be eligible as security. No one will care, and if they do they really aren't ready for the thankless, paranoid grind that security is and should be.

I blame protect from antag partially. Since people actively know they can't be antagonist: admins will give way too harsh punishments on people for fighting """innocent""" sec officers, officers will fail to regulate each other because omg he's not an antag i'll get shit canned, no reason not to act like a colossal retard because no one is properly keeping an eye on them for antagonistic activity this especially covers captains.

Also pubby tide what did you expect?

OH IF ONLY THERE WAS SOME ROLE THAT COULD INVESTIGATE AREAS WITHOUT HAVING TO BREAK IN, COULD ARREST CRIMINALS WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO HARM THEM, WOULD BE OBLIGED TO STOP SECURITY FROM GOING MAD WITH POWER AND HAVING TO KILL EVERYTHING THAT SLIPS OR DISARMS THEM.

IF ONLY THERE WAS SUCH A ROLE.

Incomptinence wrote:I blame protect from antag partially. Since people actively know they can't be antagonist: admins will give way too harsh punishments on people for fighting """innocent""" sec officers, officers will fail to regulate each other because omg he's not an antag i'll get shit canned, no reason not to act like a colossal retard because no one is properly keeping an eye on them for antagonistic activity this especially covers captains.

^
It is especially egregious when command staff like the HOS or captain act like utter psycopaths. Normally they don't, but ever since the pubbening I've had to stop playing sec roles because every other round I'd be tempted to tase them for trying to genocide X, or perma'ing all assistants on a whim, I once saw during cult the HOS perma the chaplain so he could go and get his valids and kill the cultists rather than deconvert.

The greytide is always awful, just apply baton until it stops. Always strip people in jails and WARDEN DO YOUR JOB. Although when nonantags break all brig windows it gets annoying.

TheColdTurtle wrote:The greytide is always awful, just apply baton until it stops. Always strip people in jails and WARDEN DO YOUR JOB. Although when nonantags break all brig windows it gets annoying.

Yeah no not happening. Because of the greytide sec gets fucked by both them and antags. The greytide lately has been extremely bad and the people who do it scream I DUNDU NUFFIN and get more people to greytide.

It's especially bad with shitters who grab people from sec. I'm in the verge of just executing them instead of giving them the same time as the person they freed because they never stop.

remove security and issue guns to the general crew

Atlanta-Ned wrote:

Screemonster wrote:Kor is getting too pure for this sinful universe.

Really though, they should be subject to the same "act like an antag and get your cunt kicked in" as everyone else, for all another player without a sechud knows you could be a ling impersonating an officer, an antag assistant who sweet-talked the HoP/HoS into a transfer into sec, or any number of things that foil the "sec officer, must be trustworthy even when they do rampantly untrustworthy things" meta.

Argh but where do we draw the line "acting like an antag"? We already have people resorting to lethals over short brig sentences.

That's the problem, 'cause clearly the bar has to be higher than normal crew given that stunning and cuffing people and hauling them away is a part of their job. If they're breaking into places for no damn reason though, then they're no different from any other tider.

Incomptinence wrote:I blame protect from antag partially. Since people actively know they can't be antagonist: admins will give way too harsh punishments on people for fighting """innocent""" sec officers, officers will fail to regulate each other because omg he's not an antag i'll get shit canned, no reason not to act like a colossal retard because no one is properly keeping an eye on them for antagonistic activity this especially covers captains.

Also pubby tide what did you expect?

^this, bring back antagsec and you'll see a steep decline in ahelps about them, there is a vast amount of regular griff ny nonsec that goes unreported simply because the victim assumed they were antags, or only noticed they were non-antags at round end when nothing matters anymore. Newbie engineers release tesla AND singulo at roundstart and ruin everyone's round, while the lonely loose cannon officer who made the assistant lose 5 minutes of his life gets under the magnifying glass. It should be noted that newbies are everywhere, and for every officer who executes the clown for being funny there is a greyshirt who breaks shit and immediately says ((I ahelped)) when an officer dares to arrest him. Make sec antag again, bring back paranoia, watch people be wary around sec and even *gasp* think twice before outright antagonizing them because that redshirt could just drag them around the corner and shoot them in the back of the head.

If you don't do crimes, you probably won't get arrested by security. I've never been arrested for no reason. Ever. Harassed after I was arrested? Yes. But arrested for no reason? No. The officer has always had a valid reason to detain me, and if I treated him like a real human being, I generally get out of the brig faster and don't return again.

Example from a round yesterday: Some officer was running around as an unknown in a corgi costume and stunning someone. I assaulted the officer and got arrested for it, and then I realized that it wasn't a traitor, but an officer. I felt like I was brigged unfairly, but I didn't excessively scream on comms, shout at the officer, or attempt escape. I tried reasoning with the officer, which failed, so I took the five minutes. This is the point where people would seek revenge because lol valids and maybe I could've gotten away with revenge on this one, but I chose not to mess with security anymore and I enjoyed the rest of the round.

If people were less obsessed with getting escalation valids and "revenge" then this wouldn't be a problem.

>bring back antagsec

Do we want to bring back a bloody terrible idea to solve this.

Even antag detective was quietly reverted after a few weeks because of how much it affected detective.

The hub was a fucking mistake, and continues to be a mistake

I don't think abusive or even incompetent security is limited to new players.

Kor wrote:I don't think abusive or even incompetent security is limited to new players.

It's a huge factor, but you're right because you are an example of bad sec.

You got robusted by a naked lizard with a hat on.

oranges wrote:remove security and issue guns to the general crew

Oranges going the ancap style

just giving sec the same "act like an antag asshole, get your teeth kicked" deal seems like the simplest fix to me
or maybe having some kind of IA role
but then it's like
what if security just kicks the shit out of IA guy too
or what if IA is to shitcurity, what shitcurity is to the crew
this truly is a dillema

Add teeth removal when you are beaten in the mouth when

danno wrote:just giving sec the same "act like an antag asshole, get your teeth kicked" deal seems like the simplest fix to me
or maybe having some kind of IA role
but then it's like
what if security just kicks the shit out of IA guy too
or what if IA is to shitcurity, what shitcurity is to the crew
this truly is a dillema

Fucking christ NO. Sec already has greytiders screaming REEEE SEC ARRESTED ME FOR BEING IN A SECURE AREA. Making sec valid for arresting people is no.

Just as an example. I was the captain last week. A mime was being a shitter breaking into places. On their 3rd arrest a lawyer beat them. The mime came back later in a phazon, shot up security to kill the lawyer, then shot at the security and myself who went after the mech that just fucked the brig and murdered someone. So I as captain execute them. They get cloned 4 times and try to kill me each time, despite all the shit they did as a non antag.

The admin said it was an IC issue.

Adminhelping about cell times or false arrests is generally "IC issue," but retaliating violently will get you banned.

make it not bannable


breaking the law in game(general mayhem) should not be cause for banning

just let the fights be an ic issue

Man_Shroom wrote:

Adminhelping about cell times or false arrests is generally "IC issue," but retaliating violently will get you banned.

make it not bannable


breaking the law in game(general mayhem) should not be cause for banning

just let the fights be an ic issue

>be shitter
>grief sec
>get long timer
>its ok to kill them now

Lakart wrote:I agree that it's really not possible to talk to security. The other day I spent 15 minutes being dragged around in cuffs for getting teleported into the vault when there was apparently a brown medibot teleporting people everywhere. I tried explaining, with various levels of salt and rage, to the captain and two different security officers that I was teleported. Nobody listened until I repeatedly went to sleep on an officer who dragged me into interrogation for "illegal drugs"(I was a chemist) resulting in them dragging me back out, and a fourth officer finally asking the warden why I was even in the brig and the warden accepting my story because there was indeed a teleporting medibot strolling around.

Spending a quarter of a round not even actually jailed but instead dragged around because security is deaf as a post is shittier than getting double esworded to death 15 minutes in because you accidentally found the traitor in maint since apparently there is no higher authority than taser authority.

I'd say the average security player being inattentive/too wrapped up in chasing down the greyshirt who called him a fag than to pay attention to the radio is definitely one of the big problems with security acting shitty. Even working with security can be an awful experience because of this.

I was chaplain once, a cult was outed, and a suspicious clown was carted into security. I fill him up with holy water, give the all clear to the officer restraining him, and walk about the brig. Nobody took him off of arrest. For nearly the entire round I heard officers asking about the same fucking clown over and over, with the clown pleading to anyone who would listen to be released. I was getting sick of having to remind them and had half a mind to wander into maint to die fighting the cult just to free myself from the torment.

make all of security secborgs

ban for every law infringement

easy

or

airmarshalstation13

half of all the assistants aboard get 44 caliber pistols and a license to enforce the law

what could go wrong

it's not that hard to serve your sentence guys, alt tab if you have to

PKPenguin321 wrote:it's not that hard to serve your sentence guys, alt tab if you have to

This goes beyond "don't do the crime, don't do the time."

Kor wrote:Adminhelping about cell times or false arrests is generally "IC issue," but retaliating violently will get you banned. If you retaliate non violently they'll "escalate" to murdering you or permabrigging you. They're allowed to break into anywhere they want, take what they want, etc. Nobody IC will care because everyone knows they can't be antagonists.

While I haven't been unable to admin much lately I have and will continue to bwoink security officers that falsely arrest someone either out of malice or extreme incompetence, you signed up as a role that really set the flow of the game and who's competence can make or break a lot of peoples enjoyment so act professional. I strongly encourage all admins to not pussy foot around sec issues (Or just ignore sec related ahelps, something I was guilty of when I was a new idon'twanttodohardthings-admin) and actually start dealing with something that very negatively effects someones enjoyment of the game. Security and antags tend to write most of the rounds story, the game becomes un-enjoyable for most people if the supposed "Hero's" act like the villains, or are depressingly incompetent.

Wyzack wrote:The hub was a fucking mistake, and continues to be a mistake

Its almost like people should actually listen to players or things end poorly, who knew the opinions of the people who actually play the game have value. But hey we did get Okand.

I mean, one time security kept trying to arrest me for something entirely illegitimate so i geared up with a syringe gun and the drink chemical for self defense anytime they tried to arrest me.

I then pdad the hos, put the weapons/tasers in a secure area and was told id be okay to continue doing my doctor role.

They then attempted to keep arresting me so finally I ahelped it, and an admin gave me permission to go lethal on them as security kept escalating the situation while it was attempted to be dissolved.

Security has/will always be the one job people play that get to do whatever they want so they think, then they cry and moan on the forums about how a doctor/grey tide actually defended themselves against shit curity and how I was expected to roll over for them.

Imo if security attempts to detain you/does so for lets say cleaning extremely bloody hallways with the infinite foam toy like I used to, just to get something to do they should have to state the reasoning, and if they confiscate the item they should not be allowed to use it.

Security always takes insulated gloves from assistants who get it from the vending machine, they've taxed me in the hall before when the round had just started and I got the gloves from using the silver coin and took them from me as well as my toolbelt.

I'm rambling on but tl:dr
Make security actually process people instead of "You did this we take your shit, grief you and throw you back out"

No, sirnat, people who hack into places are not getting their tools and gloves back. Likewise, officers taking things on a whim on my watch are getting demoted to assistant.

DrPillzRedux wrote:

Kor wrote:I don't think abusive or even incompetent security is limited to new players.

It's a huge factor, but you're right because you are an example of bad sec.

You got robusted by a naked lizard with a hat on.

This right here is the problem with sec. It's shitty fucking player like pillz, who think that to be a good sec they literally have to kill and redtext every antag at the expense of everything else.

Fuck you pillz, go back to ostation where your cancer can be contained.

oranges wrote:

DrPillzRedux wrote:

Kor wrote:I don't think abusive or even incompetent security is limited to new players.

It's a huge factor, but you're right because you are an example of bad sec.

You got robusted by a naked lizard with a hat on.

This right here is the problem with sec. It's shitty fucking player like pillz, who think that to be a good sec they literally have to kill and redtext every antag at the expense of everything else.

Fuck you pillz, go back to ostation where your cancer can be contained.

When did I say I try to kill antags? I just arrest people and let the warden/HoS judge, unless they try and kill me.

I was a whitelisted HoS on goon. Do you know how laid back you have to be? I was calling out sec last year for straight out killing captured antags.

You need to lay off the citrus.

I guess I misunderstood what you meant

The big thing goon sec had over tg sec was their mindset. Goon sec revolved around just having fun. Whenever I caught a traitor on goon who wasn't murderboning I just did something silly, took their syndie gear, then let them go. Removing them from the round just made it stagnant and uninteresting.

Making two traitors fight to the death with the clowns severed legs was fun for all.

tg sec on the other hand punishes incompetence. As most traitors here just murderbone all sec can do is take them out, as if they're released they'll just kill people again. If a Warden/HoS/Captain releases a traitor, even with no gear, often they're revolted against and exiled or executed for incompetence.

If you get collared by Sec and you didn't do anything, don't resist (unless there's a really good reason to believe Sec's rogue - e.g. "help someone killed Officer Redshirt and took his clothes"). That means no saxxing, no shouting about how you dindu nuffin and Sec is the worst and you'll bomb them when you get out.

Listen to the officer, see why you're being arrested, then calmly explain you didn't do it. No dice? Serve your time, and ahelp "hey, I didn't do it, is Officer Redshirt griffon". Maybe they're acting on bad info and you got framed, lr maybe they're just being bad Sec.

The admin rules it as an IC issue. Now leave it here. Do your time and don't provoke Sec. Are you still on arrest? Tell an officer or the Captain or something.
If they get enough ahelps about one person, they'll take action. Until then, do your part by assuming good faith and not saxxing around shouting WGW when you're getting arrested.


And if Sec could stop going for the valids on every antag they find, that'd be swell too, but that's a whole new can of worms.

Oranges might just be the most sensible... thing in this thread. What fucking loopy land did I walk into.

@penguinz not breaking space law and serving sentances would be doable if space law wasn't optional and applied equally. Thze entire point of this discussion is sec is doi ng what ever they want and getting 0 repricussions for it. If anyone without an implant did half the shit sec does they'd get banned. When's the last time you saw sec arrest one of their own for taking things too far?

@pillz the problem is sec isn't just using the stick on tiders. But everyone. And its generally veteran sec players who s
shit on the crew and randomly decide they have the authority to assault, steal, imprison or even execute without the slightest scrap of evidence to support their claim that x is a baddie. If security was only going after tiders and showing the slightest bit of respect to departments this discussion wouldn't be happening.

Guys what if

wait

no what if

we ban shitty sec players from sec

I know Kor has an aversion to this whole ban thing but


you kno

what if