Security Job Policy

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PotatoMcWhiskey
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:15 am
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Security Job Policy

Post by PotatoMcWhiskey » #237373

Hi guys, I've been playing SS13 on goon/tg/various codebased-lineage servers for many years. Recently I started playing on the tg Sybil and Basil servers[after quite a long hiatus] and I've noticed a very troubling trend with regards to the security line of jobs/roles on these stations.

Now just to give some context before I launch into things, I cut my teeth on one of the goonstations back when it was listed publicly on byond and was fairly popular. These servers had fairly strict rules with regards to the application of space law and what was or wasn't considered shitcurity. So my expectation in terms of the robust application of space law is already pretty high. This is after all a silly little role playing game, to discard that in it's entirety kind of makes the game lose it's sheen in my opinion.

One of the first things I've noticed on this server is that Detectives seem to act as if they are just security guards wearing cool jackets. Now I absolutely respect that sometimes you get bored as a detective and you just want to run about chasing people and being the hero, however I feel that the Detective was intended to be played more as a support or goofball role in comparison to a standard security officer. I have seen a very disturbing trend of detectives running around as if they were simply Security officers, arresting people, handing out sentences, basically avoiding all the things they are "supposed" to be doing in the role. [Smoking cigars, taking pictures, investigating crimes and getting drunk]

I feel this is actively devaluing what should be, an interesting an fun role to play around.

The second portion of this trend I've noticed on the servers is that Security guards are way too heavy handed and unrobust. I am primarily a Security Officer/Medical Doctor when I play and especially when I am a Security Officer I expect a certain level of light grief and rough housing from the crew's greyshirts. You know, an assistant throws you on the ground, so you give chase and you wrestle a bit, maybe you arrest him and give him a 2 minute sentence just to annoy him. Fun stuff and comes with the territory. Generally you avoid going nuts on a dude unless he was being a shit and trying to commit a real crime or steal your ID/Taser/Stunbat.

This is not the case with the stations current generation of security officers. For example, the other day the HoP was slow to come to his office. So myself and a few other jobless peons started a fairly harmless riot [We were hitting the windows with our shoes, not actually damaging them and declaring riot over the radio because space mexicans took our jobs or something] and of course a sec responds, they see its just dicking around and leave us alone. But then another sec comes who doesn't like it and starts attacking people while talking shit. So naturally, I assume he's just down for some roughhousing and I knock him down and drag him around for about 15-30seconds. It turns out this was not the case and he legitimately thought he was enforcing space law. After I stopped robusting him and said "Alright lets truce and go about our business" he immediately gets up arrests me and sentences me to 7 minutes in the brig when he was the one who attacked me. Of course by the time I was release the HoP had been blown up and my round was effectively over because some security couldn't take a self defense disarm on the chin.

This is not an isolated incident, I have several times run headlong into security who is far too trigger happy and loose with their understanding of the rules of space law with an inability to decipher what is play fighting[Hint: you're not wounded] and what is a legitimate attempt on their life[Hint: you're probably dead]. There have also been a staggering number of times where I'm dicking around doing something fairly harmless, for example in a recent couple of rounds I have been shot with lethals within 10 seconds of picking up a potted plant on Basil. Now I'm not saying theres never a time to use lethals, but to immediately open up on a moving potted plant that is casually heading to escape is madness - bear in mind this has happened several times!

It only gets worse when there are no admins on, and I haven't even gotten to wardens, HoS, Captains or HoP who think they're sec. I would say on an average day when there is no admin on there is at least 1 rounds where the security team deserve Job bans/Temp bans. Now obviously it is unreasonable to expect there to always be an admin online however far, far too many people are freely allowed play security who should be allowed nowhere near the role.

I have seen security guards tase their own friends and leave them to be butchered by the grey tide, when they easily could have pulled them to safety. I have seen security strip their own head of department of his gear as he lay wounded and bleeding on the floor easily saved with a bit of CPR and a med-kit. This level of unrobustitude, whether intentional or not, is in no way acceptable for the security department who often have the biggest impact on whether a round is fun or shit for a huge number of crewmembers.

I have seen wardens talk shit to their officers when they ask for people to be set to arrest. I have seen wardens loot the armoury with a dufflebag only to be promptly murdered and butchered by the rev grey tide unintentionally distributing weapons to an entire crew. I have seen HoS running around in riot gear harm batoning people for the thrill of it. I have seen the Captain order the execution of a crew member simply for being obnoxious over the radio. I have seen HoP's raid the armoury and build a fortress in Cargo. All of these things are fine, in moderation my friends, but the sheer frequency of shititude to the entire security team is staggering in my opinion.

I have even been executed for trying to help the security team throughout a round with the admin's response being "I'll talk to them, they were a bit execution happy". Now forgive me, but when I cut my teeth on the game back in the day I got a 1 day ban just for threatening to space someone during an interrogation. Granted I had dragged them to an airlock and I was being very convincing but still. That was the day I learned torture isn't allowed on the goonstation.

And so now I get to the point of my post.

TL;DR

- tg security players of all roles are generally unrobust in gameplay, knowledge and application of spacelaw.
- Security is essentially a license to grief on /tg/ especially when there are no admins.
- There is no way for a non-antag player to interact with shitcurity positively or in a fun way.
- Admins give way too much leeway to shitcurity in terms of sentencing.
- Security Players make 0 effort to resolve things IC.
- I'm saying this as a primarily Sec player.


I want some policy confirmation:

A: Is it /tg/ policy that heads of staff can order the execution of crew members who have not committed a crime?
B: Is it /tg/ policy that detectives can arrest like sec issue sentences for crimes at whatever level they feel with no consultation of space law even if there is a warden to determine a sentence?
C: Is it /tg/ policy to let consistently shit players who don't do their job correctly continue to be shit in the security role?
D: Is it /tg/ policy to let security players attack crewmembers and then use their self defense as justification for the attack?
E: Is it /tg/ policy for admins to let blatant server rule infractions and space law infractions by security to go unpunished with a "talking to"?

Because I have witnessed all of this in the last couple weeks that I came back to play on /tg/ stations and I'd like to know if I have had just bad luck or this is the norm as even A-Helping it during the round has not resolved pretty blatant rule breaking.

Edit: Basically want to know if I'm also allowed be as shit as these guys and not get banned because I don't want to be holding myself to a really high standard of security play for no reason. I didn't want to just start going around doing the things these people have done without clarifying if they were withing the rules of the server/space law. I didn't want my first post on these forums to be a ban appeal if I started being as shit as these guys because I'm used to what they're doing getting me banned from a server.
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Saegrimr
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Saegrimr » #237377

I ain't reading all that but we know shitcurity is currently a thing and are working to curb this. Keep setting a good example.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
PotatoMcWhiskey
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by PotatoMcWhiskey » #237380

Saegrimr wrote:I ain't reading all that but we know shitcurity is currently a thing and are working to curb this. Keep setting a good example.
The top half is basically me roleplaying as an angry old sec player, read the bit after TL;DR.
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J_Madison
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by J_Madison » #237382

PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:I ain't reading all that but we know shitcurity is currently a thing and are working to curb this. Keep setting a good example.
The top half is basically me roleplaying as an angry old sec player, read the bit after TL;DR.
new sec players are a response to new player attitudes.

I can rarely give any leeway for players or it needlessly escalates. A lot of players can't take a joke and the game becomes serious all the time.
Players feel entitled to respect, differential treatment, and gameplay bonuses simply because of their name, buddy, or playstyle and will remove you from the round if you don't shift your gameplay around them.
And rounds end up being "if you affect my round, I will remove you from it". And rightfully so when people shift entire rounds around their egos.

if sec players deserve bans, then so do the players that cause them to be so strung up. ask yourself what happened to the good sec players and ask what happened to the chill grey tides.

What's missing here is SS13 is a goofy byond game that's meant to be taken lightly, but when players take it seriously, it's a do or die if you want to stay in the round or spectate for 40 minutes after dying.
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Saegrimr
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Saegrimr » #237383

I dunno what you want to hear, nobody is going to come here and tell you "Yeah man go be a turbo fucking shitass and cave some skulls in!"
As for your points.

>A: Is it /tg/ policy that heads of staff can order the execution of crew members who have not committed a crime?
No. Here's the tricky part, did they know you did not commit a crime or are they convinced you did? As in there's reports of "some engineer attacked a guy in science maint" and a few minutes later you wander in, run into sec and get your ass tased. (Not to say that isn't flimsy as fuck for executions but you get the idea)
There's this retarded thing going on where Captains get a lot of leeway in how the station is run and people have been abusing that way more than they have making cool shit happen.

>B: Is it /tg/ policy that detectives can arrest like sec issue sentences for crimes at whatever level they feel with no consultation of space law even if there is a warden to determine a sentence?
Wardens at this point are a glorified armory watchdog at best. Honestly I think half the shitcurity issues could be solved if there were exceptional wardens kicking sec officers out of the brig and taking over handling prisoners. Too many times I see a sec officer set a ridiculous timer and run off, once the timer's up the guy leaves his cell and then gets re-arrested for "being in the brig".

>C: Is it /tg/ policy to let consistently shit players who don't do their job correctly continue to be shit in the security role?
This has nothing to do with "policy" in the slightest.

>D: Is it /tg/ policy to let security players attack crewmembers and then use their self defense as justification for the attack?
This is the kind of shit sec that should be getting banned.

>E: Is it /tg/ policy for admins to let blatant server rule infractions and space law infractions by security to go unpunished with a "talking to"?
Admins are lazy fucks and most admit to calling things "IC issues" so they don't have to look into weird grey area situations, or even blatant shit because laziness.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
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Haevacht
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Haevacht » #237385

Space law is a fucking guideline, not set as a rule that has to be followed.
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D&B
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by D&B » #237386

1. This isn't goon and space law is a suggestion, not a guideline or modus operandi for sec.

2.Again, not goon. If a detective is nearby and arrests someone, they're supporting sec. If during their sleuthing around they find a culprit, they're not expected to stand idle with a dick in the ass while the culprit escapes. Even more so, due to how the mars 38 counters some weapons, detectives are often threaded as another tip of the sec Trident.
If people enjoy helping sec like this, how does it devaluate the role? Would you rather have another armed lawyer that just sits in the brig waiting to get their gun stolen due to drunkenness?

3. A security officer has no way of knowing what you mean to do or not. They act based on actions and what other sec officers do. Maybe if you don't want to get shitcanned don't attack a sec officer that's breaking up a self proclaimed riot. I don't know how combat works on goon, but in the a stun or being knocked down is basically a GG no re. Was the sec officer heavy-handed? Probably.

4. On the plant thing. Are you sure that's all that happened? Are you leaving something out?

5. We have no whitelist for sec department or heads. A reasonably new person can enter the round as CE. This affects all roles, not just sec.

A. Heads of staff can order demotions and in extreme circumstances security intervention. Admins will tell you that it's better to keep people in the round but you can usually stick shitters in perma or the Gulag and they will ghost out of their own accord.

B. Space law is a suggestion, not a baseline. TG is more combat oriented, light rp than goon. This is a trend that is more noticeable now that both servers shifted pop and hub openess.

C. Yeah, but define shit.

D. Not. If you bothered to read the rules you'll realize that's banbaiting.

E. Space law is a suggestion, not a fucking rule book.

You know maybe it would help you more to ghost around and observe a few rounds rather than make a policy thread that shows you made almost a null effort to be informed on the rules of the server.
Spoiler:
[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?
J_Madison wrote: that's a stupid fucking stat
you don't play, you've never played
lying little shit with your bullshit stat
fuck you
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PotatoMcWhiskey
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by PotatoMcWhiskey » #237394

D&B wrote:1. This isn't goon and space law is a suggestion, not a guideline or modus operandi for sec.

2.Again, not goon. If a detective is nearby and arrests someone, they're supporting sec. If during their sleuthing around they find a culprit, they're not expected to stand idle with a dick in the ass while the culprit escapes. Even more so, due to how the mars 38 counters some weapons, detectives are often threaded as another tip of the sec Trident.
If people enjoy helping sec like this, how does it devaluate the role? Would you rather have another armed lawyer that just sits in the brig waiting to get their gun stolen due to drunkenness?

3. A security officer has no way of knowing what you mean to do or not. They act based on actions and what other sec officers do. Maybe if you don't want to get shitcanned don't attack a sec officer that's breaking up a self proclaimed riot. I don't know how combat works on goon, but in the a stun or being knocked down is basically a GG no re. Was the sec officer heavy-handed? Probably.

4. On the plant thing. Are you sure that's all that happened? Are you leaving something out?

5. We have no whitelist for sec department or heads. A reasonably new person can enter the round as CE. This affects all roles, not just sec.

A. Heads of staff can order demotions and in extreme circumstances security intervention. Admins will tell you that it's better to keep people in the round but you can usually stick shitters in perma or the Gulag and they will ghost out of their own accord.

B. Space law is a suggestion, not a baseline. TG is more combat oriented, light rp than goon. This is a trend that is more noticeable now that both servers shifted pop and hub openess.

C. Yeah, but define shit.

D. Not. If you bothered to read the rules you'll realize that's banbaiting.

E. Space law is a suggestion, not a fucking rule book.

You know maybe it would help you more to ghost around and observe a few rounds rather than make a policy thread that shows you made almost a null effort to be informed on the rules of the server.

1. I didn't say it was goon. I'm mainly explaining where I'm coming from when I approach these things as a relative newcomer to /tg/.

2. I'm pretty obviously not suggesting the detective stand around with his dick out. What I am saying though that the Detective is generally played incorrectly as per the wiki.

"You are not Security. You are an investigator. Your revolver is only for self-defense." Its perfectly acceptable in my view if people bend this a bit and do a bit of law enforcement here or there but I don't think the detective should just be a sec officer in a pretty set of clothing.

3. I think the fact that they attacked me first, and the fact that I stunned them and ran around with them without instantly killing them or even hurting them is a pretty big hint considering as you said, usually a stun is a kill. I'm a sec player and I can almost always tell if shits going to be to the death or if its just a brawl.

4. What I said happened multiple times. I have been shot to crit/dead several times on this server for carrying a potted plant.

5. Thats fine, whitelists I think are not the right approach, but I think for the general quality of the game sec(and the people who interact with sec) need to be held to a higher standard and 1hour/1day bans/job bans need to start being handed out for bad behavour.

A: Right so the execution I received was definitely against the rules.

B: I respect that, but its part of the game for a reason. The reason space law exists is so that sec can enforce the law without looking like arbitrary cockweasels out to be fucking space hitlers. A good sec officer knows to tell the guy who disarmed him that the space law sentence is 5 minutes, but that you're reducing it to 3 minutes because he was pretty chill about the arrest. Thats how you avoid the fucker hypergrudging you and trying to ruin your round. Far too many sec just get mad over some small shit and hand out arbitrarily long sentences and then wonder why 10 minutes later that guy starts peeling his fucking skin off while he's tied to a chair. Sec right now is treated as a license to ruin rounds with arbitrary application of IC law when it is the single most compelling role on the station because you get to interact with literally every department.

C: Huge sentences, not remembering to take people off arrest, not reading the security radio channel, acting like a redshirt admin immune grey tider with a license to grief sort of levels of shit.

D: I did read the rules and yet I have witnessed this happening multiple times with no response from A-Help due to it being an "IC-Issue" or some other shit.

E: Sure it is, but you forgot the part about server rule infractions. Space law is a guide but that doesn't mean you can just go about executing people because reasons. Spacelaw should be somewhat enforceable within reason in the extreme cases like permabrigging and execution.

I mean I've played hundreds if not thousands of rounds on Goon/tg/whatever servers over the years but I've never seen a security team be consistently shit and get away with it in the 30 or so rounds I've played on this server over the last couple weeks.
Haevacht wrote:Space law is a fucking guideline, not set as a rule that has to be followed.
Yeah I get that, but I'm making a point about sec officers even attempting to do shit IC and just being arbitrary with the sentences which just leads to crew grudging and murderboning waves of greytiders out for sec blood who are mad because you brigged them for 9 minutes over a doorhack. Space Law exists for a reason and it serves an important purpose in shaping the culture of a station.

The Sec team sets the standard for the interactions of the playerbase on a server. If the security team becomes arbitrary and trigger happy then the crew becomes murderous and distrustful of sec. You can very clearly see this on the server. This becomes a positive feedback loop of who can react the fastest once a sec walks into a room instead of people having a bit of chit chat back and forth before they start trying to kill each other.

If Sec is shit everyone becomes shit by necessity basically.
Saegrimr wrote:I dunno what you want to hear, nobody is going to come here and tell you "Yeah man go be a turbo fucking shitass and cave some skulls in!"
As for your points.

>A: Is it /tg/ policy that heads of staff can order the execution of crew members who have not committed a crime?
No. Here's the tricky part, did they know you did not commit a crime or are they convinced you did? As in there's reports of "some engineer attacked a guy in science maint" and a few minutes later you wander in, run into sec and get your ass tased. (Not to say that isn't flimsy as fuck for executions but you get the idea)
There's this retarded thing going on where Captains get a lot of leeway in how the station is run and people have been abusing that way more than they have making cool shit happen.

>B: Is it /tg/ policy that detectives can arrest like sec issue sentences for crimes at whatever level they feel with no consultation of space law even if there is a warden to determine a sentence?
Wardens at this point are a glorified armory watchdog at best. Honestly I think half the shitcurity issues could be solved if there were exceptional wardens kicking sec officers out of the brig and taking over handling prisoners. Too many times I see a sec officer set a ridiculous timer and run off, once the timer's up the guy leaves his cell and then gets re-arrested for "being in the brig".

>C: Is it /tg/ policy to let consistently shit players who don't do their job correctly continue to be shit in the security role?
This has nothing to do with "policy" in the slightest.

>D: Is it /tg/ policy to let security players attack crewmembers and then use their self defense as justification for the attack?
This is the kind of shit sec that should be getting banned.

>E: Is it /tg/ policy for admins to let blatant server rule infractions and space law infractions by security to go unpunished with a "talking to"?
Admins are lazy fucks and most admit to calling things "IC issues" so they don't have to look into weird grey area situations, or even blatant shit because laziness.
A: Yeah they knew. I had even helped them, saved a few of them from certain death and was granted items by a sec officer for helping him out. But they got pissy over some back and forth we had over the radio and decided they would settle it by executing me. The Admin said executing someone for being a bit shit over radio is fine so I'm taking that as a carte blanche to execute people when I'm a power role and I don't like what they have to say.

B: Wardens are definitely core to Security not being shit, but sadly the Wardens are worse that the Sec officers from what I've seen.

C: I think it does because I've seen people who in my opinion deserve job bans play the same shit level round after round. So I'm wondering if its policy to not job ban people for being shit basically.

D: Agreed.

E: Ah, that explains a lot actually.
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Lumbermancer
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Lumbermancer » #237416

Saegrimr wrote:I ain't reading all that but we know shitcurity is currently a thing and are working to curb this. Keep setting a good example.
Are you saying you want to make the Space Law great again?
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kevinz000
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by kevinz000 » #237418

I find nothing wrong with detectives, HoSes, and captains having security gear and doing the job of security, and I do it myself.

- tg security players of all roles are generally unrobust in gameplay, knowledge and application of space law
I beg to differ
- There is no way for a non-antag player to interact with shitcurity positively or in a fun way.
False, not all security players are shit.
- Security Players make 0 effort to resolve things IC
By this do you mean they ahelp everything or what?

"But then another sec comes who doesn't like it and starts attacking people while talking shit. So naturally, I assume he's just down for some roughhousing and I knock him down and drag him around for about 15-30seconds. It turns out this was not the case and he legitimately thought he was enforcing space law. After I stopped robusting him and said "Alright lets truce and go about our business" he immediately gets up arrests me and sentences me to 7 minutes in the brig when he was the one who attacked me. Of course by the time I was release the HoP had been blown up and my round was effectively over because some security couldn't take a self defense disarm on the chin." If he beat/harmed them that shouldn't be acceptable unless he was mobbed. If he simply started stunning people then in my opinion it's completely within his rights as you're hitting windows with shoes. Even if it isn't doing damage it's borderline on riot/greytide. Don't cause trouble if you don't want to get hit by security. This is about some security players being shit, and greytiding only justifies their shit treatment of non-security. I personally wouldn't start arresting over that but it's completely within the bounds of security to do so if a bunch of people start hitting windows, without damage or with.

Also, do you play security on Sybil or Bagil? We try to minimize the differences between the communities but this does matter.
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Arianya
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Arianya » #237419

A: Is it /tg/ policy that heads of staff can order the execution of crew members who have not committed a crime?
Technically I believe only the Captain and the HoS have "kill-order" rights but this line is a little blurred. As Saeg said, assume imperfect knowledge. If you're executed FNR then ahelp it and the admin can investigate, but saying "you didndu nuffin" in the forums afterwards doesn't really help anyone because they might have had very good reasoning to suspect you.
B: Is it /tg/ policy that detectives can arrest like sec issue sentences for crimes at whatever level they feel with no consultation of space law even if there is a warden to determine a sentence?
Yes, Detectives are functionally treated as sec officers in terms of arresting rights. Space law is a suggestion, not a requirement (and when I follow space law I tend to get people complaining I'm too harsh anyway so). The warden is *ideally* involved in sentencing decisions but currently its not a requirement.
C: Is it /tg/ policy to let consistently shit players who don't do their job correctly continue to be shit in the security role?
Generally speaking, incompetence is not treated as a admin-issue unless

a) Its a head role with significant round impact (I.e. Captain leaving the disk)
b) The incompetence is so stark as to be considered malicious

Where these lines fall is largely up to the admins though.
D: Is it /tg/ policy to let security players attack crewmembers and then use their self defense as justification for the attack?
Define "attack". If you mean an attempt to stun and arrest, then yes, officers can escalate the effort of their attacks if you resist arrest.

If you mean "he ran at me with a toolbox and tried to bash my head in", then no, that would not generally be valid and should be ahelped.
E: Is it /tg/ policy for admins to let blatant server rule infractions and space law infractions by security to go unpunished with a "talking to"?
Different admins rest on different points in regards to lenience. First of all, space law is a suggestion not a rule, so that part is irrelevant, but also bear in mind that "blatant" server rule infractions may have reasonable explanations that you're not aware of. The shitcurity who from your perspective just fucked you up for no goddamn reason may have had very good reason, even if mistaken, and so the admin may lean towards a warning and a note as opposed to a ban.

But, as Saeg says:
I ain't reading all that but we know shitcurity is currently a thing and are working to curb this. Keep setting a good example.
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CPTANT
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by CPTANT » #237449

The actual tl:dr of this thread:

"I was rioting and when a security officer came to arrest me I resisted arrest, attacked him and now I am salty I got 7 minutes in jail"
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by PotatoMcWhiskey » #237460

kevinz000 wrote:I find nothing wrong with detectives, HoSes, and captains having security gear and doing the job of security, and I do it myself.

- tg security players of all roles are generally unrobust in gameplay, knowledge and application of space law
I beg to differ
- There is no way for a non-antag player to interact with shitcurity positively or in a fun way.
False, not all security players are shit.
- Security Players make 0 effort to resolve things IC
By this do you mean they ahelp everything or what?

"But then another sec comes who doesn't like it and starts attacking people while talking shit. So naturally, I assume he's just down for some roughhousing and I knock him down and drag him around for about 15-30seconds. It turns out this was not the case and he legitimately thought he was enforcing space law. After I stopped robusting him and said "Alright lets truce and go about our business" he immediately gets up arrests me and sentences me to 7 minutes in the brig when he was the one who attacked me. Of course by the time I was release the HoP had been blown up and my round was effectively over because some security couldn't take a self defense disarm on the chin." If he beat/harmed them that shouldn't be acceptable unless he was mobbed. If he simply started stunning people then in my opinion it's completely within his rights as you're hitting windows with shoes. Even if it isn't doing damage it's borderline on riot/greytide. Don't cause trouble if you don't want to get hit by security. This is about some security players being shit, and greytiding only justifies their shit treatment of non-security. I personally wouldn't start arresting over that but it's completely within the bounds of security to do so if a bunch of people start hitting windows, without damage or with.

Also, do you play security on Sybil or Bagil? We try to minimize the differences between the communities but this does matter.
Fuck I had a decent response written but my shit refreshed and I lost it.

You're free to disagree about whether sec players are shit but I haven't seen any evidence to contradict my assesment so you'll understand why I'm making that assessment. I also want to make it clear that I'm not saying that every Sec is shit, just that the frequency, consistency and level of shit that I have witnessed is far in excess of what was my expectation from reading the rules, and I'd wager there are a lot of people who feel the same as me. A bit of Sec shitness comes with the territory, but I feel that this level is out of hand.

By not resolving things IC, I mean they are not making an effort to actually play their role. Now maybe my minimum standards are a bit high for Sec, I'm obviously not asking people to roleplay or write up notes to plays for bad behavior but there is a minimum level of job competency that is required, such as making sure released prisoners get their arrest status set correctly, using space law to resolve disputes with players in a way so as not to radicalise them against sec, taking the time to send a couple of messages to people(obviously, not in a high pressure situation, shooting first makes sense) before you just go ham on them. The current generation of Sec are creating a more hostile crew in my opinion, and this is something I've witnessed. The security department currently plays like an independent nation who's only export is grief. I have seen Sec officers being griefed and bullied, and yet when I am Sec that rarely happens to me. The positive feedback loop that Security is creating for itself, especially with the Admin-Anti-Grief missile shield they have is madness. Security is shit -> Crew is shit in response -> this justifies Sec' Shitness -> Increase Micro-Hitler level -> Return to start.

I think my point is that what should have been a positive interaction between two people with a bit of light rioting "roleplay" became a shit interaction for two people because the Detective couldn't handle getting disarmed by someone he attacked. We could have just roughhoused each other a bit and let it be that but he had to escalate things to a level that satisfied his internal micro hitler because he couldn't handle being disarmed by someone he attacked. This sort of shit is how you foster mistrust and resentment from the round's crew. It could have been a bit of goofy fun but Sec have no chill so it was ruined for both people.

I play on both servers.

Technically I believe only the Captain and the HoS have "kill-order" rights but this line is a little blurred. As Saeg said, assume imperfect knowledge. If you're executed FNR then ahelp it and the admin can investigate, but saying "you didndu nuffin" in the forums afterwards doesn't really help anyone because they might have had very good reasoning to suspect you.
I was executed for telling security they are shit over the radio basically after spending the round helping them. I had actually assisted them multiple times throughout the round. They had perfect knowledge that I was not a tator. My round was ruined because someone didn't like what I said and the Admins handling it were extremely apathetic to what was a pretty extreme breach of the server rules. I'm not here to talk about any individual case however, I'm here to talk about the general level of shittery I've witness in the security roles and the lassez faire approach the admins are taking to it. I think its negatively affecting many people's experiences on the server.
Yes, Detectives are functionally treated as sec officers in terms of arresting rights. Space law is a suggestion, not a requirement (and when I follow space law I tend to get people complaining I'm too harsh anyway so). The warden is *ideally* involved in sentencing decisions but currently its not a requirement.
I know that space law is a suggestion, but it seems that nobody understands why Space Law exists in the first place. Space Law exists specifically to provide a framework and guide for Sec players to not be shit. I'm not saying it needs to be enforced to the letter of the law.
Generally speaking, incompetence is not treated as a admin-issue unless

a) Its a head role with significant round impact (I.e. Captain leaving the disk)
b) The incompetence is so stark as to be considered malicious

Where these lines fall is largely up to the admins though.
Thats fair, it perhaps is simply my expectations are out of line with the server community's.
Define "attack". If you mean an attempt to stun and arrest, then yes, officers can escalate the effort of their attacks if you resist arrest.

If you mean "he ran at me with a toolbox and tried to bash my head in", then no, that would not generally be valid and should be ahelped.
I have had numerous instances where I have been attacked with lethals, AHelps were either non-existent or ambivalent.
Different admins rest on different points in regards to lenience. First of all, space law is a suggestion not a rule, so that part is irrelevant, but also bear in mind that "blatant" server rule infractions may have reasonable explanations that you're not aware of. The shitcurity who from your perspective just fucked you up for no goddamn reason may have had very good reason, even if mistaken, and so the admin may lean towards a warning and a note as opposed to a ban.
Thats fair, I think encouraging warnings and notes above instant bans might be the right approach, I'm just used to being instantly banned on other servers for some of the shit I've seen Sec pull. I think in this instance it was extremely clear that I was an ally and asset to the station and the crew decided to execute me because they were a bit tired of me given them shit, which from my perspective was giving me shit considering I had saved multiple officers from danger, cloned them etc.

It was one of those exceptional times where I wish I had recorded the round as I reckon there would be legitimate bans handed out had it been handled correctly. Thats kind of irrelevant though as I'm not here to get anyone banned, more to talk about the general shitness of sec, the ambivalence of the admins and how Sec Job policy isn't being enforced with enough rigor. I am willing to admit it might be my expectations don't line up with the servers actual gameplay. These things are simply examples to back up the claims I'm making about the state of Sec.
CPTANT wrote:The actual tl:dr of this thread:

"I was rioting and when a security officer came to arrest me I resisted arrest, attacked him and now I am salty I got 7 minutes in jail"
Thats just one single instance of shitcurity. It was merely an example to illustrate a typical interaction with a security that could have been fun for both people ended up fostering resentment for the security department.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Reece » #237562

Oh wow, you have no concept of shitsec then. You cause a riot and I'd have slammed you in the perma, or blown your brains out in the security boot out front to make a point.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by PotatoMcWhiskey » #237566

Reece wrote:Oh wow, you have no concept of shitsec then. You cause a riot and I'd have slammed you in the perma, or blown your brains out in the security boot out front to make a point.
Just got done with a round earlier where the sec officers beheaded every person who was arrested with a fireaxe tot or not.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #237569

PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:
Reece wrote:Oh wow, you have no concept of shitsec then. You cause a riot and I'd have slammed you in the perma, or blown your brains out in the security boot out front to make a point.
Just got done with a round earlier where the sec officers beheaded every person who was arrested with a fireaxe tot or not.
Did you ahelp them?
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by PotatoMcWhiskey » #237579

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:
Reece wrote:Oh wow, you have no concept of shitsec then. You cause a riot and I'd have slammed you in the perma, or blown your brains out in the security boot out front to make a point.
Just got done with a round earlier where the sec officers beheaded every person who was arrested with a fireaxe tot or not.
Did you ahelp them?
Indeed I did. No response. None were online unfortunately.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Reece » #237600

PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:
Reece wrote:Oh wow, you have no concept of shitsec then. You cause a riot and I'd have slammed you in the perma, or blown your brains out in the security boot out front to make a point.
Just got done with a round earlier where the sec officers beheaded every person who was arrested with a fireaxe tot or not.
Holy shit...that's a bit, that's a bit intense.
I mean I just finished a round where the shittery from the greys got so bad we basically started running a space version of the Gestapo to stop it from all falling apart, but we at least actually investigated.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by DrPillzRedux » #237611

Probably antags as admins always respond to stuff like that through IRC messaging.
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a correct post by pillz
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by PotatoMcWhiskey » #237622

DrPillzRedux wrote:Probably antags as admins always respond to stuff like that through IRC messaging.
Can sec guards spawn as antags?
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by BeeSting12 » #237623

PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:
DrPillzRedux wrote:Probably antags as admins always respond to stuff like that through IRC messaging.
Can sec guards spawn as antags?
no
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Haevacht » #237624

But they can become cultists, and revs if effort is expended.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Saegrimr » #237630

PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:Indeed I did. No response. None were online unfortunately.
Fixed.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by John_Oxford » #237640

Ill speak my mind because even as the master of paragraphs, i ain't reading all that shit.

It's a light RP server that's evolved to be heavily focused on combat.

We sit on the line between tactical space call of duty and rainbow six siege with jobs and rules.

Detectives being security officers is irrelevant and totally dependent on RP. Once you start restricting what a job can do, you step over the line of light RP.

Generally speaking, admins moderate themselves enough to know when security is just being blatantly shit.

As a rule of thumb, don't fuck with security or do things that would otherwise break the law unless you intend to be able to robust that security officer completely. From what i understand, if you break space law by doing something that non-chalantly wouldn't actually warrant a arrest. And a security officer tries to a arrest you, but you robust him. Expect to be treated like shit if you get caught. All of security trying to chase and kill you is what creates conflict for our security team, we aren't like other servers were rules are absolutely enforced on security with absolutely no fun allowed on either parts.

Basically it's fine how it is now, stop trying to increase RP levels. Its a light-rp server. Admins will handle people being shit constantly, said people have received security bans. Don't break space law and you won't get fucked up.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by oranges » #237646

^ reasons why shitcurity exist
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by John_Oxford » #237664

^ can't come up with a argument so shitposts

like i expected more from you, citrusfag
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TechnoAlchemist wrote:you where always right john, you where always right
>implying the admin conspiracy wasen't just confirmed by a admin.
see, i told you motherfuckers.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by PKPenguin321 » #237734

Remember when we had like 5 sec policy threads a day and they all got shedded?
Good times
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Armhulen » #237736

PKPenguin321 wrote:Remember when we had like 5 sec policy threads a day and they all got shedded?
Good times
those times aren't these times :(
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by Owegno » #237741

Honestly just brig people based off intent and use your investigative skills to figure out that intent and you will be good.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by TehSteveo » #237793

PKPenguin321 wrote:Remember when we had like 5 sec policy threads a day and they all got shedded?
Good times
I lack the powers to banish threads here to the shed. I guess I could just lock threads but, eh. Sec discussions always happen. Cycle of life.
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Re: Security Job Policy

Post by kevinz000 » #238641

TehPear wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:Remember when we had like 5 sec policy threads a day and they all got shedded?
Good times
I lack the powers to banish threads here to the shed. I guess I could just lock threads but, eh. Sec discussions always happen. Cycle of life.
Headmins don't have global mod?
That's sad.
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