There is too little greytide

[CPTANT]

Bottom post of the previous page:

There is. I rarely have to do with greytide at all while playing security.

In fact I would say a server culture has developed where greytide is seen as a bannable offence and a form of "being a shitter".

The fact is that greytide makes things interesting. Both for security and the tide.

A server culture has also developed where security either doesn't care about your crime, or outright perma's/ executes you.

I think at the core of this is the severity with which greytide and escalation from greytide (labeling such acts as banbaiting) are currently treated by the admin team.

[Screemonster]

if you're going to act like that special sort of cunt that security players don't want to have to put up with giving them trouble for the entire round then don't be surprised when they toss your ass in perma just so they don't have to deal with your bullshit any more.

Kinda like the longstanding policy that if someone kicks your ass out of their department and you deliberately go back to fuck with them a second time, they're allowed to do whatever's necessary to ensure you don't fuck with them again.

[cedarbridge]

Kinda like the longstanding policy that if someone kicks your ass out of their department and you deliberately go back to fuck with them a second time, they're allowed to do whatever's necessary to ensure you don't fuck with them again.

Story time:

>chemist in what turns out to be a really long extended round
>greyshirt welds into chem shed
>sec chases him off
>comes back, breaks in, makes a bunch of thermite
>other chemist has been shooting herself up with a cocktail of the most awful narcotics she can manage all round
>apparently kept a syringe of the shit in her syringe gun
>greyshirt eats a cocktail of meth, krok, crank, rotatium and who knows what else
>goes down, table cuff, onto a roller bed and drag him to the fridge I've been stocking for an hour to pull him out of crit
>stable, take him to sec
>apparently sec managed to all get killed or something
>take him back to med, stuff some jerky in his face
>keep him around as a medical test dummy for a few minutes until I'm satisfied that my patches and pills work as intended
>set him loose
>model citizen for the rest of the shift
>other chemist comes running in as a screaming zombie and the Cap manages to blow up escape with a BSA

[cedarbridge]

Not sure if its just a product of all the new players from the hub, but I've noticed an awful lot of non-antag general smash and grab in rounds. Medbay gets busted up and every window bashed out by some random mime. Every window in the meta command hallway is smashed by some asshole with an axe. On and on and on. I'm sure sec and the greys get their jollies out of it but its really frustrating for the departments that have to deal with them and the nearly non-existent sec response because sec frankly has more important things to be doing than dealing with some faggot breaking windows and harassing medbay staff. However, this has the added effect of making departments even more insular than they already were. Chemists and CMOs start making chloral/neurotox/beepsky every round to deal with the inevitable tiding. Robotics/R&D make prods to deal with the #lootcrew. Engineering does the same thing when the break-ins over gloves come as they always do. I mean, its not hard to understand why greys get zero respect from the actual department positions and why greys attempting to be respectful and helpful end up getting shit on in the crossfire. There's just too many dicks using their no-responsibility job position to cause trouble for everyone until the shuttle gets called.

[Owegno]

I'm 95% sure what you are describing is a product of the hub cedar since it never happened on Basil before the hub and I didn't see it on Sybil during that month basil was down. I don't even feel bad about getting a mute+instant stun mix in my hypospray every round as CMO.

[ShadowDimentio]

Ctrl F

Replace [greytide] with [nonantag crime]

Save

[Cobby]

People feeling entitled because they didn't meet the arbitrary "Shitty enough to be banned" quantity yet still act like garbage is the reason I consider most things IC issues. If people want to be trash, It doesn't really bother me. However, if people want to be trash, they should realize they aren't going to get the protections a person who isn't being a burden on other players has. This is especially true with assistants. I tend to give the legitimate greytiders even less protection because of the constant abuse of the job to soft-antagonize the station. Some people have gotten tired of it and will readily up it to lethals because greys have a knack for escalating it into lethals.

It is obnoxious to see people almost "weaponize" administrators because they got dunked/impaired after being a nuisance to others. People don't want to spend half the round getting bwoinked [or worse, banned for "improper escalation"] because they had to deal with someone being a pest to their round.

In short, if you want more greytide: stop asking us to put ourselves in every situation regardless of which side of the toolbox you're on.

[CPTANT]

People feeling entitled because they didn't meet the arbitrary "Shitty enough to be banned" quantity yet still act like garbage is the reason I consider most things IC issues. If people want to be trash, It doesn't really bother me. However, if people want to be trash, they should realize they aren't going to get the protections a person who isn't being a burden on other players has. This is especially true with assistants. I tend to give the legitimate greytiders even less protection because of the constant abuse of the job to soft-antagonize the station. Some people have gotten tired of it and will readily up it to lethals because greys have a knack for escalating it into lethals.

It is obnoxious to see people almost "weaponize" administrators because they got dunked/impaired after being a nuisance to others. People don't want to spend half the round getting bwoinked [or worse, banned for "improper escalation"] because they had to deal with someone being a pest to their round.

In short, if you want more greytide: stop asking us to put ourselves in every situation regardless of which side of the toolbox you're on.

I have always been a proponent of more things being IC and having less admin intervention. In my opinion security can fend for itself.

[kevinz000]

People feeling entitled because they didn't meet the arbitrary "Shitty enough to be banned" quantity yet still act like garbage is the reason I consider most things IC issues. If people want to be trash, It doesn't really bother me. However, if people want to be trash, they should realize they aren't going to get the protections a person who isn't being a burden on other players has. This is especially true with assistants. I tend to give the legitimate greytiders even less protection because of the constant abuse of the job to soft-antagonize the station. Some people have gotten tired of it and will readily up it to lethals because greys have a knack for escalating it into lethals.

It is obnoxious to see people almost "weaponize" administrators because they got dunked/impaired after being a nuisance to others. People don't want to spend half the round getting bwoinked [or worse, banned for "improper escalation"] because they had to deal with someone being a pest to their round.

In short, if you want more greytide: stop asking us to put ourselves in every situation regardless of which side of the toolbox you're on.

I have always been a proponent of more things being IC and having less admin intervention. In my opinion security can fend for itself.

Half the time security can't fend for themselves even if I babysit them (I don't.)

[ShadowDimentio]

I'm soft on minor crimes, but very intense of crimes I deem shitty. Example: A clown can slip to his heart's content, but if he's using lube I'll gulag him the moment I can get my hands around his neck.

If the tiders come and start smashing up my windows and trying to break in though they'll be shot until they stop, and if they keep doing it they're getting killed. It's only fair.

[cedarbridge]

I mean, if we're going for an "every department fends for itself" then I'm sure medbay will appreciate the new organ donors.

[Gun Hog]

I could always use another 'dummy' for bomb 'testing'.

[Armhulen]

The singulo always loves more food

[XDTM]

Nations vs greytide when

[CPTANT]

Anyway, when we have ban threads like this:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9671

It is quite clear why we have arrived at the situation we are now.

[Wyzack]

>tfw want to get tossed into perma for IC reasons and be a hardened criminal but do not want to just be a griefing shithead and make people miserable just to justify getting tossed there

complex kinda feel

[Armhulen]

I had a prison job idea awhile ago. You get a random crime in memory and the rest is to you. We'd have to make perma harder to escape, though.

[Qbopper]

>tfw want to get tossed into perma for IC reasons and be a hardened criminal but do not want to just be a griefing shithead and make people miserable just to justify getting tossed there

complex kinda feel

b-but RP is just ERP in the bar with lizards

[Reece]

>tfw want to get tossed into perma for IC reasons and be a hardened criminal but do not want to just be a griefing shithead and make people miserable just to justify getting tossed there

complex kinda feel

b-but RP is just ERP in the bar with lizards

TFW I tried RP'ing as an ashwalker selling 'dragon eggs' to the chef to get our brood on station.
female captain takes me into her office to negotiate deal.
strips down and emotes 'captain rubs her crotch'
FUCKING WHY!

[Armhulen]

>tfw want to get tossed into perma for IC reasons and be a hardened criminal but do not want to just be a griefing shithead and make people miserable just to justify getting tossed there

complex kinda feel

b-but RP is just ERP in the bar with lizards

TFW I tried RP'ing as an ashwalker selling 'dragon eggs' to the chef to get our brood on station.
female captain takes me into her office to negotiate deal.
strips down and emotes 'captain rubs her crotch'
FUCKING WHY!

captain (banned)

[Qbopper]

>tfw want to get tossed into perma for IC reasons and be a hardened criminal but do not want to just be a griefing shithead and make people miserable just to justify getting tossed there

complex kinda feel

b-but RP is just ERP in the bar with lizards

TFW I tried RP'ing as an ashwalker selling 'dragon eggs' to the chef to get our brood on station.
female captain takes me into her office to negotiate deal.
strips down and emotes 'captain rubs her crotch'
FUCKING WHY!

I don't believe this because it hurts to think it's true

[PKPenguin321]

that's actually hilarious, would have penetrated her with my spear and stolen her all access if you catch me
legalize ERP

[CPTANT]

And once more:

Ban reason and length: Reason: "(MANUAL BAN) Raiding the armory FNR as non-antag assistant. Ended up validing someone while in there [despite raiding the armory themselves]. Raiding the armory as nonantag is NOT OK. The only reason this isn't longer is because he suicided at brig." 2 days

Since fucking when is raiding the armory NOT OK. It was always an IC issue unless done repeatedly or when killing the people trying to stop you.

[cedarbridge]

And once more:

Ban reason and length: Reason: "(MANUAL BAN) Raiding the armory FNR as non-antag assistant. Ended up validing someone while in there [despite raiding the armory themselves]. Raiding the armory as nonantag is NOT OK. The only reason this isn't longer is because he suicided at brig." 2 days

Since fucking when is raiding the armory NOT OK. It was always an IC issue unless done repeatedly or when killing the people trying to stop you.

There's a reason security is allowed to gun you down to breaking into the armory. If you're doing it you're likely one of two things: a validseeker looking for guns or an antagonist looking for guns. One should be there and the other is doing their job.

[tedward1337]

Oh boy, steno is back. We've come full circle

[CPTANT]

And once more:

Ban reason and length: Reason: "(MANUAL BAN) Raiding the armory FNR as non-antag assistant. Ended up validing someone while in there [despite raiding the armory themselves]. Raiding the armory as nonantag is NOT OK. The only reason this isn't longer is because he suicided at brig." 2 days

Since fucking when is raiding the armory NOT OK. It was always an IC issue unless done repeatedly or when killing the people trying to stop you.

There's a reason security is allowed to gun you down to breaking into the armory. If you're doing it you're likely one of two things: a validseeker looking for guns or an antagonist looking for guns. One should be there and the other is doing their job.

classic mistake, one side being right to gun down people in the armory doesn't mean the other side is wrong.

Anyway I belief a year or so ago raiding the armory was explicitly stated as one of those things that are IC.

[onleavedontatme]

It seems weird that we have a rule about how to handle people in the armory IC if people entering the armory is an OOC issue

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Secu ... Precedents

6 . While it is up to the discretion of the security player, lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig. Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armoury, is in the armoury, or is leaving it

[cedarbridge]

It seems weird that we have a rule about how to handle people in the armory IC if people entering the armory is an OOC issue

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Secu ... Precedents

6 . While it is up to the discretion of the security player, lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig. Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armoury, is in the armoury, or is leaving it

The problem with the rule has always been that it produces asymetrical conditions which are difficult for some players. Breaking into the armory gets you guns but it gets you shot. Sec is authorized to shoot you but you're not authorized to shoot back. Leads to a lot of "4noraisn" complaints because Shit McGrey made a bad choice and got removed from the round for doing it. I think it started getting admin attention to head it off at the pass and save the headaches from complaints from all parties.

[Qbopper]

And once more:

Ban reason and length: Reason: "(MANUAL BAN) Raiding the armory FNR as non-antag assistant. Ended up validing someone while in there [despite raiding the armory themselves]. Raiding the armory as nonantag is NOT OK. The only reason this isn't longer is because he suicided at brig." 2 days

Since fucking when is raiding the armory NOT OK. It was always an IC issue unless done repeatedly or when killing the people trying to stop you.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the issue here the part where he killed someone else? Raiding the armory FNR is just icing on the cake

[captain sawrge]

The use of "valid" in the ban reason is kind of confusing. Was the kill valid or not? If it was, banning for it isn't all that fair, and if not, I'd prefer we stick to the more understandable nomenclature.
I don't really see the problem with raiding the armory considering it's usually a fairly difficult task and puts you on the run for the rest of the round. Security will likely shoot to kill if they catch you and your only real option to fight back is with non lethals or simply evading them. I think it's only an issue if it's (extremely) frequent or if the perpetrators use them being wanted as an excuse to murder.

[onleavedontatme]

"Seeking valids" is a terrible phrase because "valid" means "allowed by the rules."

Literally nothing wrong with seeking out and killing violent antagonists either.

[Luke Cox]

Personally, I'm pro greytide and pro sec. People should be allowed to be shitlers (within reason), and sec should be allowed to bash their faces in.

[TheNightingale]

Raiding the Armory isn't "minor" IC crime. It's gaining access to the second most secure location on the station (AI Core is first) and stealing weapons you could easily kill someone with. If you're not an antagonist, and you're not doing it because Sec's dead and there's someone shooting up Medbay, then... don't?

[Haevacht]

Also if you do manage it anyway don;t steal all the fucking guns people need empty out a flashbang box and steal that and carry your internals in it or something steal USELESS shit.

[Deitus]

im gonna post here basically what i've posted elsewhere: there is too MUCH IC crime. every single goddamn round there's a few chucklefucks that law 2 into the hop office and start fucking around, or greyshirt mcbeat breaking windows for no reason, or snowflake name the clown slipping people and stealing their shit; there's so much shittery and IC crime that sec way more often than not has too much on their hands to deal with actual round antags, and when nar'sie gets summoned or the nuke goes off there's always the "woooow sec did absolutely nothing that round gg" from the people we had to deal with. if you want more ic crime, be ready for longer/harder ic punishments from me, at least.

[Screemonster]

there's so much shittery and IC crime that sec way more often than not has too much on their hands to deal with actual round antags

This is a good thing, it means traitors can actually do literally anything other than just going loud and murderboning
If the only crime taking place is antags and security have time to laser-focus down on every little hacked door and ggnore them then whats the fucking point

and when nar'sie gets summoned or the nuke goes off there's always the "woooow sec did absolutely nothing that round gg" from the people we had to deal with.

This, on the other hand, is not a good thing. If you're gonna get up to your fuckin' shenanigans and distract security just to get a reaction out of them, don't be a cunt about the reaction you get.

[cedarbridge]

there's so much shittery and IC crime that sec way more often than not has too much on their hands to deal with actual round antags

This is a good thing, it means traitors can actually do literally anything other than just going loud and murderboning
If the only crime taking place is antags and security have time to laser-focus down on every little hacked door and ggnore them then whats the fucking point

I don't follow. Your support for non-antags smashing up the place is that their non-antag shittery is good cover for the real antags that don't know how to cover their own tracks?

[Qbopper]

im gonna post here basically what i've posted elsewhere: there is too MUCH IC crime. every single goddamn round there's a few chucklefucks that law 2 into the hop office and start fucking around, or greyshirt mcbeat breaking windows for no reason, or snowflake name the clown slipping people and stealing their shit; there's so much shittery and IC crime that sec way more often than not has too much on their hands to deal with actual round antags, and when nar'sie gets summoned or the nuke goes off there's always the "woooow sec did absolutely nothing that round gg" from the people we had to deal with. if you want more ic crime, be ready for longer/harder ic punishments from me, at least.

surprisingly reasonable post from deitus actually, I agree

[calzilla1]

>Perma clown for being a faggot (on extended no less)
>He breaks out and warden lets him loose
>What ever, just dont fuck with sec
>making clown mech
>take the chasis and sax a bit to show the clown how it feels when people steal your shit
>clown attacks later during a rad storm
>stun cuff, and throw him the fuck out. Let god sort him out
>he rages in OOC after round
>justice has been served

[Qbopper]

>stun cuff, and throw him the fuck out. Let god sort him out

on the one hand, wew lad

on the other it's a clown he deserved it

[onleavedontatme]

If you don't want to deal with crime why are you playing security

[CPTANT]

If you don't want to deal with crime why are you playing security

This.

last round we had a non antag try to break in the armory, after some fucking up on my part he got my weapons and id, about 20 minutes later he got cornered and lynched.

problem solved.

[captain sawrge]

I don't get what people expect out of sec if not crime. Solving crimes and dealing with crimers is literally all you have to do.

[TheNightingale]

Crime should be from the antagonists, whose responsibility is to do suspicious stuff to spice up the round. Not from the average greyshirt with budget insuls, a stunprod and a fetish for spacing Ian.

Consider:
1) Eliminate unprovoked IC crime [read: no spacing Ian just because the HoP won't give you all-access]
2) This means Security is less hell to play, but also means they focus on actual antags more...
3) ... so we also make it bannable to validkill antags just because you can [read: if you find an emag on someone, charge them with possession of contraband, interrogate them for a bit, don't execute them on the spot].

"But wait, won't this mean antags come back with a revolver and kill Security?"
Maybe. If that happens too frequently, we just make antags need proper reasons to go postal.

[cedarbridge]

Crime should be from the antagonists, whose responsibility is to do suspicious stuff to spice up the round. Not from the average greyshirt with budget insuls, a stunprod and a fetish for spacing Ian.

Consider:
1) Eliminate unprovoked IC crime [read: no spacing Ian just because the HoP won't give you all-access]
2) This means Security is less hell to play, but also means they focus on actual antags more...
3) ... so we also make it bannable to validkill antags just because you can [read: if you find an emag on someone, charge them with possession of contraband, interrogate them for a bit, don't execute them on the spot].

"But wait, won't this mean antags come back with a revolver and kill Security?"
Maybe. If that happens too frequently, we just make antags need proper reasons to go postal.

This would be swell, on a server with RP requirements where this would make sense.

[Qbopper]

Crime should be from the antagonists, whose responsibility is to do suspicious stuff to spice up the round. Not from the average greyshirt with budget insuls, a stunprod and a fetish for spacing Ian.

Consider:
1) Eliminate unprovoked IC crime [read: no spacing Ian just because the HoP won't give you all-access]
2) This means Security is less hell to play, but also means they focus on actual antags more...
3) ... so we also make it bannable to validkill antags just because you can [read: if you find an emag on someone, charge them with possession of contraband, interrogate them for a bit, don't execute them on the spot].

"But wait, won't this mean antags come back with a revolver and kill Security?"
Maybe. If that happens too frequently, we just make antags need proper reasons to go postal.

Sounds great

Also sounds like something that will never happen on /tg/, the server just doesn't play that way and the effort it would take to rewrite rules/convince players seems unlikely to ever happen

EDIT: I'm not trying to be sarcastic btw, I actually would think that's fun, but that's just not really feasible imo

[Cobby]

> sec officer kills person
> why
> they stole a toolbox and only antags can steal

hmmmm

[confused rock]

What nightingale is saying is "instead of annoying greytide and murderbonong antags, lets make all nonantag crime ooc and antags petty criminals" wtf

[captain sawrge]

crime and the conflict it creates is a massive part of the game and trying to remove/limit it shows an incredible amount of ignorance

[TheNightingale]

I'm saying, don't steal someone's toolbox for no raisins. It's not about the act, it's about the principle of "don't be a dick". You need that guy's toolbox real bad, and it has to be that one (e.g. syndie toolbox, and you work rnd)? Ask him for it. Does he rudely tell you to bugger off? Okay, *now* you can steal it.

Yes, crime is important, but unprovoked crime is bad. If you spend your shift helping people and being nice at every opportunity, the only ones doing you wrong should be the antagonists. But if you act abrasively (e.g. taking all the diamond as a Roboticist), expect retaliation (e.g. the Scientists stunning you and taking it back).

If you're going to do something that screws someone else over, ask yourself why. Is your answer "idk lmao"? Don't do it.

[CPTANT]

I'm saying, don't steal someone's toolbox for no raisins. It's not about the act, it's about the principle of "don't be a dick". You need that guy's toolbox real bad, and it has to be that one (e.g. syndie toolbox, and you work rnd)? Ask him for it. Does he rudely tell you to bugger off? Okay, *now* you can steal it.

Yes, crime is important, but unprovoked crime is bad. If you spend your shift helping people and being nice at every opportunity, the only ones doing you wrong should be the antagonists. But if you act abrasively (e.g. taking all the diamond as a Roboticist), expect retaliation (e.g. the Scientists stunning you and taking it back).

If you're going to do something that screws someone else over, ask yourself why. Is your answer "idk lmao"? Don't do it.

except don't be a dick is a terribly worded rule because people are dicks to each other all the time.

The game is driven by conflict, caused by differences in interests.

[TheNightingale]

I think what people don't realise is that, although conflict is one way to create fun, it's also not the only way. You can have fun in extended rounds where nobody self-antags and tides... but there's no conflict in sight.