There is too little greytide

[CPTANT]

There is. I rarely have to do with greytide at all while playing security.

In fact I would say a server culture has developed where greytide is seen as a bannable offence and a form of "being a shitter".

The fact is that greytide makes things interesting. Both for security and the tide.

A server culture has also developed where security either doesn't care about your crime, or outright perma's/ executes you.

I think at the core of this is the severity with which greytide and escalation from greytide (labeling such acts as banbaiting) are currently treated by the admin team.

[TheColdTurtle]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
funny joke

[onleavedontatme]

You fell into the language trap CPTANT

Greytide is bad. Nobody wants 20-30 angry guys killing all of security for no reason. That isn't fun.

What you really mean is "there is not enough minor nonantagonist crime that doesn't attract admin attention and more and more things are classified as grey tide"

I wish people would stop using the same phrase (greytide) to refer to mass murder of all security as well as breaking windows or punching the clown.

[onleavedontatme]

This thread is also dumb you're out of your mind if you think you're going to convince admins of anything with a thread titled "people should grief more"

[CPTANT]

You fell into the language trap CPTANT

Greytide is bad. Nobody wants 20-30 angry guys killing all of security for no reason. That isn't fun.

What you really mean is "there is not enough minor nonantagonist crime that doesn't attract admin attention and more and more things are classified as grey tide"

I wish people would stop using the same phrase (greytide) to refer to mass murder of all security as well as breaking windows or punching the clown.

Well I never used the word to include mass murder of security or something, but whatever. That is basically what I mean.

[CPTANT]

This thread is also dumb you're out of your mind if you think you're going to convince admins of anything with a thread titled "people should grief more"

Hey exactly the problem! minor crime is seen as greytide/grief.

[TheColdTurtle]

There is also the fact cosmic that some admins do not allow metagaming, as in not giving people a harsher sentence because they do x every round. Also

>inb4 this turns into another ban request thread

[calzilla1]

New minor (?) antag:Greytide
1 in a hundred chance fire ALL round start assistants to get the objective "FUCK SHIT UP" and after 10-20 minutes the station gets a CentCom announcement saying: "[greytide assistants] are Rouge and are [legal word for valid]"

[TheColdTurtle]

>AI just locks down everyone
Good gamemode

[danno]

i think it's the duty of players to get up to nonsense that'll get you a 3-5 minute timer

[Armhulen]

New minor (?) antag:Greytide
1 in a hundred chance fire ALL round start assistants to get the objective "FUCK SHIT UP" and after 10-20 minutes the station gets a CentCom announcement saying: "[greytide assistants] are Rouge and are [legal word for valid]"

be assistant

accidently misclick disarm an officer

HOS PERMISSION TO EXECUTE

tho really how do people misclick in this game, you almost deserve it

[Okand37]

Minor IC conflict in itself isn't bad and it is encouraged for players to make fun. There is however, a difference between doing it in good taste and fun for those involved, versus doing it to be disruptive and rude to others trying to enjoy the game in a way different than your own.

On the topic, it is a very loose word that different people associate with different actions. Someone may consider breaking station objects or stealing to be greytide, while another might associate it with running around with a spear and picking fights with people. In a general sense, its classified under griefing in most cases, but its important to note the aforementioned; if people are having fun and its not forcing anyone to be involved who don't want to be, there's not really an issue.

I hope this example gives you an idea for perspective: Someone breaking all the windows in the security cells and dismantling the grilles can be considered by disruptive, and generally effects all of the security players on board the station, and might not be so well received. Messing with a single person as you both escalate it between the two of you might be more accepted if both parties are enjoying the action!

[bandit]

As an admin, I can see both sides to this. Griff is bad. But it's also hard to punish things more leniently when players scream at you in adminhelp for anything less harsh than an instant ban. Even when -- especially when -- it was partly the adminhelper's fault, or if they provoked it.

[TheColdTurtle]

Last round on bagil even the HOS and captain were shitters. This is more of a player problem.

[TheColdTurtle]

Oh fuck I broke my own inb4

[oranges]

The eternal cycle continues

[danno]

Last round on bagil even the HOS and captain were shitters. This is more of a player problem.

ahahahaha everyone had fun but you, man

what does it even have to do with the topic

[Oldman Robustin]

I've been saying it for years. Security is generally a shitty job if your only purpose is to bust antags. Sec's generally unfun in traitor rounds because the dudes who you can beat in a fight simply won't start shit while you're around, and the ones who can beat you in a fight will almost certainly do so because Sec kills are a JACKPOT for traitors and when it comes to ebows/eswords/revolvers security might as well be an assistant with a "VALID ME" sign on their backs. Anyway I'm getting off track...

Point is - sec is a better job when you get to crack a few assistant skulls because they wanted to start some shit for the same reason you want them to... you're both bored.


I think this isn't an issue 95% of the time because its pretty synergistic. The problems comes up when someone's harassment of security causes far greater consequences for the sec player. Like if an assistant runs up, disarms your baton (you deserve it for running around with your baton out), and then stuns you with it once and runs off. Classic assistant tactics. Only this time while the officer is stunned some cultist/traitor/changeling walks up and kills the officer on the spot. When/If the officer realizes they died because of non-antag harassment, they'll be seeing red and demanding the assistant gets a ban. Nobody is going to ahelp if assistants AREN'T harassing them, they'll just get bored and go braindead. I just think this game is better if you are being entertained during most rounds, while occasionally get pissed off, rather than having dozens of rounds where nothing objectionable happens (in terms of the rules) and you're bored out of your mind for most of them.

[Arianya]

I want to play on this magical server where sec is permaing and executing people at the drop of a hat, because as the HoS/Warden I've only executed someone maybe once or twice (there have been some accidental deaths, sure, but I'm counting actual, "fuck this guy for the crime he did") and perma even less because people constantly fucking escape from there by busting the window and going for a spacewalk.

Also, greytide is really dumb, meaningless conflict. Whether its griefing for griefings sake or "I broke into engineering because I wanted insulated gloves to hack doors with!" its generally this kind of behaviour that results in the biggest "GRR FUCK SEC" arguments because the arrestee feels hard done by for doing shit that they feel others get away with and sec feels hard done by because people are shittalking them for enforcing the law like its their goddamn job.

If this were a High RP or Med RP server I'd say "shoot for natural conflict that actually makes sense" but thats never gonna happen here so.

Also danno your avvy looks fucking perfect with the party hat.

[imblyings]

>i want a human being to log on to a 2d atmos simulator in space
>i want them to first waste enough of their life lurking on /tg/ enough that they understand what is acceptable grief in our server culture
>I also want them to be selfless and mature and responsible adults who will sacrifice their time for me and play along with my desires as follows
>i want them to spend their time carefully griefing so I can stop them but without admins having to stop them
>i want to arrest and crack their skulls but they have to never escalate beyond non-lethal uses of force while I get to gradually up their sentences to perma or execution
>if they decide to resist and escalate and kill me instead, I will in all likelihood complain to admins

wait no I understand where you're coming from, chasing up small crimes can be very relaxing rp when you and the perp understand how it is, instead of high-stakes pre-memorized rote antag-validing but still

[Whoisthere]

understand what is acceptable grief in our server culture

I've been playing for several years on and off and I still don't understand what acceptable grief is.
I'd like to, though.
I mean dismantling all the cells/making a space tunnel into permabrig/building a supermatter engine in maint all seem like acceptable grief to me intuitively. I don't do that much (or ever I think?) but I assume most people would be unhappy with it for some reason.

What is acceptable grief? Disarming a sec dude of his stunbaton fornoraisin? Getting into a verbal alteraction with the barman that escalates to spacing?

[tedward1337]

This thread is also dumb you're out of your mind if you think you're going to convince admins of anything with a thread titled "people should grief more"

Hahahaha you say that, but I'm pretty convinced :^)

[danno]

pro tip:stop trying to figure out what grief is "acceptable" and just push it as far as you can go

not that I would ever do something like that

[Lumbermancer]

I've been saying it for years. Security is generally a shitty job if your only purpose is to bust antags.

That's only if you play Sec for PvP and want more of it.

[Whoisthere]

pro tip:stop trying to figure out what grief is "acceptable" and just push it as far as you can go

not that I would ever do something like that

I legitimately don't want to upset other players too much. I guess I should just stop playing with this attitude.

[Cw3040]

New minor (?) antag:Greytide
1 in a hundred chance fire ALL round start assistants to get the objective "FUCK SHIT UP" and after 10-20 minutes the station gets a CentCom announcement saying: "[greytide assistants] are Rouge and are [legal word for valid]"

If this was added I'd actually appeal my ban just to try it out.

[kevinz000]

This thread is also dumb you're out of your mind if you think you're going to convince admins of anything with a thread titled "people should grief more"

I nearly got killed by a bunch of tiders who rushed the armory because luke gadow was arrested.

[D&B]

At least you didn't get map text on you

[Cobby]

There are people who hate greytide of any form. No Conflict outside of antags = fun for them. They have a pseudo-ban on sec, since they'd rather play non-conflict oriented roles, OR they are banned from sec because they only have the role for valid hunting.

There are people who hate varying levels of greytide. Minor conflict outside of antags + antag conflict = fun for them, it's just that the spectrum varies from person to person [admins included] which means policy will never be a happy medium [hence why there is no hard line on it].

There are people who love greytide altogether. They're banned from assistant.

Then here's little old me who is stuck between a rule 10 and a grey place.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Honestly I think anyone using the term "greytide" as a sub-in for "any nonantag crime" should be banned because it makes every discussion confusing.

[Qbopper]

the problem as I see it is a. the language trap mentioned and b. sec's response to minor crimes

I've been baffled at the sentences sec players hand out to assistants doing little more than carrying a stunprod and jabbing folks with a (regular) pen - I think people end up thinking they need to commit serious crimes or nothing at all, because a lot of sec players don't seem to differentiate

[kevinz000]

As a security player I can tell you that there is enough greytide to go around.

[Davidchan]

As a player who regularly shifts between sec and assistant, I can tell you security is doing itself no favors by treating every member of the crew not implanted like utter shit, and then often escalating the situation. Wordlessly tasing or stun batoning someone IS an attack, if they retaliate or someone aids them when the most common brig sentencing is death despite zero fucking proof, then yeah they are in the right for defending their life against a crime they probably didn't commit.

As for sec officers who say they HAVE to immediately stun and cuff people to do their job. No, you're just being shit. The only officers I see do this are the same officers who murder people in the halls for disarming them. Stand with 1-2 tiles between you and your target. Use your hailer, tell them to lay down/rest so they can't run or resist, and inform them of their crime. It makes a world of difference in the cooperation you get from suspects when you give them a chance to cooperate to begin with. If you walk up and tase me fnr expect me to do anything in my power to resist you. It's fucking human nature.

[Digdugxx]

I'm not saying anyone's in the right but its far too easy to robust a sec officer like that

[kevinz000]

As a player who regularly shifts between sec and assistant, I can tell you security is doing itself no favors by treating every member of the crew not implanted like utter shit, and then often escalating the situation. Wordlessly tasing or stun batoning someone IS an attack, if they retaliate or someone aids them when the most common brig sentencing is death despite zero fucking proof, then yeah they are in the right for defending their life against a crime they probably didn't commit.

As for sec officers who say they HAVE to immediately stun and cuff people to do their job. No, you're just being shit. The only officers I see do this are the same officers who murder people in the halls for disarming them. Stand with 1-2 tiles between you and your target. Use your hailer, tell them to lay down/rest so they can't run or resist, and inform them of their crime. It makes a world of difference in the cooperation you get from suspects when you give them a chance to cooperate to begin with. If you walk up and tase me fnr expect me to do anything in my power to resist you. It's fucking human nature.

I'm not telling someone to lie down so they can memebow me, but if they retaliate I'm not executing them either. Executing for simple retaliation is not allowed, but security is nowhere near required to talk it out instead of shooting you and asking after you get cuffed.

[CPTANT]

As a player who regularly shifts between sec and assistant, I can tell you security is doing itself no favors by treating every member of the crew not implanted like utter shit, and then often escalating the situation. Wordlessly tasing or stun batoning someone IS an attack, if they retaliate or someone aids them when the most common brig sentencing is death despite zero fucking proof, then yeah they are in the right for defending their life against a crime they probably didn't commit.

As for sec officers who say they HAVE to immediately stun and cuff people to do their job. No, you're just being shit. The only officers I see do this are the same officers who murder people in the halls for disarming them. Stand with 1-2 tiles between you and your target. Use your hailer, tell them to lay down/rest so they can't run or resist, and inform them of their crime. It makes a world of difference in the cooperation you get from suspects when you give them a chance to cooperate to begin with. If you walk up and tase me fnr expect me to do anything in my power to resist you. It's fucking human nature.

"hello good sir, I saw you running from that crime scene completely covered in blood, may I look in your bag?

*Revolver to the face.

There is no such thing as preventing people from running or resisting without stunning them.

You taze them, bring them to a secure location, THEN you have time to tell them why and perform searches. If there is no reason to hold them longer you release them.

Trying to resist arrests happening in this way is completely natural too. That's the entire point of the game, you have conflicting interests that lead to actual conflict.

[Davidchan]

I'm not telling someone to lie down so they can memebow me,

Something about being oblivious

I'm not saying anyone's in the right but its far too easy to robust a sec officer like that

Gee, if ONLY we had the means to make items in hand appear on a sprite so that if suspect a tries something a halfway decent security officer can react.

Oh wait, you can infact see a person's hands, and its fairly obvious when someone pulls out a weapon. I'm not saying that security should never tase someone commiting a crime or otherwise about to do something dangerous. But in the last few weeks the only times I've ever been arrested, searched or approached by security the first thing they did was tase me. Regardless of what I was doing or had done for that entire round even gave them a valid reason to drag me to the brig.

[CPTANT]

I'm not telling someone to lie down so they can memebow me,

Something about being oblivious

I'm not saying anyone's in the right but its far too easy to robust a sec officer like that

Gee, if ONLY we had the means to make items in hand appear on a sprite so that if suspect a tries something a halfway decent security officer can react.

Oh wait, you can infact see a person's hands, and its fairly obvious when someone pulls out a weapon. I'm not saying that security should never tase someone commiting a crime or otherwise about to do something dangerous. But in the last few weeks the only times I've ever been arrested, searched or approached by security the first thing they did was tase me. Regardless of what I was doing or had done for that entire round even gave them a valid reason to drag me to the brig.

Ohw yeah because you can't go from having something in your backpack to having it into your hand and shooting it in 0.05 seconds.

Good luck reacting to that.

Simply running away also instantly increases the difficulty of hitting someone immensely.

You are delusional if you think talking first doesn't give a huge advantage to the person you are approaching.

[Davidchan]

Ohw yeah because you can't go from having something in your backpack to having it into your hand and shooting it in 0.05 seconds.

Good luck reacting to that.

Simply running away also instantly increases the difficulty of hitting someone immensely.

You are delusional if you think talking first doesn't give a huge advantage to the person you are approaching.

So you're admitting that you're not robust enough that in time it takes for someone to move their cursor from their bag slot to your sprite and click on you, you can't click on them once even with the advantage of already having your taser drawn and cursor on them?

[CPTANT]

Ohw yeah because you can't go from having something in your backpack to having it into your hand and shooting it in 0.05 seconds.

Good luck reacting to that.

Simply running away also instantly increases the difficulty of hitting someone immensely.

You are delusional if you think talking first doesn't give a huge advantage to the person you are approaching.

So you're admitting that you're not robust enough that in time it takes for someone to move their cursor from their bag slot to your sprite and click on you, you can't click on them once even with the advantage of already having your taser drawn and cursor on them?

That is completely right since the average human reaction time is 0.25 seconds, which is plenty of time to shoot first. And that is without lag or any time to actually make a judgement call of what someone has in their hand.

But hey, who am I to stop you from getting yourself dunked.

[kevinz000]

Ohw yeah because you can't go from having something in your backpack to having it into your hand and shooting it in 0.05 seconds.

Good luck reacting to that.

Simply running away also instantly increases the difficulty of hitting someone immensely.

You are delusional if you think talking first doesn't give a huge advantage to the person you are approaching.

So you're admitting that you're not robust enough that in time it takes for someone to move their cursor from their bag slot to your sprite and click on you, you can't click on them once even with the advantage of already having your taser drawn and cursor on them?

^ The man forgot that antags normally know how to dodge, and the person chasing is at a disadvantage due to how projectiles work. Also, the time it takes for them to click on the object in their bag and click you is about 0.3 seconds if they're your average oldfag antag player.

[Sweaterkittens]

I think you guys are neglecting to remember the most pivotal reason that people tase first and ask questions later - that the game does not adequately support both communication and action simultaneously. If you stop to talk, especially with your weapon out, you are completely helpless. You can't move, you can't fire, you can't do shit until you finish typing. Which means that it's objectively safe to just tase someone who you're suspicious of, THEN talk to them.

Now, if they're tasing out of the blue, taking your shit and brigging you wordlessly when you didn't do anything - THAT'S shit.

[PKPenguin321]

As a security player I can tell you that there is enough greytide to go around.

not sure if this is the language trap or you just werent around for actual greytide

[WarbossLincoln]

As others brought up, we shouldn't use "grey tide" to refer to all non-antag crime. Non-antag crime is fine and can create interesting situations. Grey tiding is griefing. It's really not that hard.

Smashing a few windows: fine
Stealing non job-critical items: fine
Steal an id: fine
Start a fistfight: fine if you don't go overboard, don't ahelp if you get dunked
Break into someone's workspace: same as above, don't go overboard
Breaking a brig window: maybe once in awhile.
Breaking all the brig windows: not cool
3 assistants rescuing a violent criminal from sec: not cool
Setting someone on fire because they stole your 2d space violin: not cool

Most of the ones that are ok are not ok if you do them too much or hurt people in the process for no reason. It's not hard to not get banned.

[CPTANT]

As others brought up, we shouldn't use "grey tide" to refer to all non-antag crime. Non-antag crime is fine and can create interesting situations. Grey tiding is griefing. It's really not that hard.

Smashing a few windows: fine
Stealing non job-critical items: fine
Steal an id: fine
Start a fistfight: fine if you don't go overboard, don't ahelp if you get dunked
Break into someone's workspace: same as above, don't go overboard
Breaking a brig window: maybe once in awhile.
Breaking all the brig windows: not cool
3 assistants rescuing a violent criminal from sec: not cool
Setting someone on fire because they stole your 2d space violin: not cool

Most of the ones that are ok are not ok if you do them too much or hurt people in the process for no reason. It's not hard to not get banned.

breaking someone out of jail as a group is fine if there are IC reasons for it.

[DemonFiren]

stealing IDs is something incredibly shitty to do tbh

[Armhulen]

Nonantag criminals should atleast cooperate when in the brig. Making security's life hell, ghosting after first brigging and all that is a huge way to find shitters that should be banned

Like be a dick, fine, but at least own up to it.

[Cobby]

I guess this is also applicable to here as well, I was getting confused because I knew I had just posted about this [in another thread].

I guess the issue is that we're stuck between "Greytide is obnoxious" and "Minor conflict is pivotal in rounds to act as a distraction to antag activities and keep rounds interesting where antags are making it feel like pseudoextended".

Basically we're at a point where If you're above the "grey[tide] area" you will be banned, and if you're below the "grey[tide] area" you are "protected" in terms of other players having to deal with your shitty-but-not-yet-deemed-bannable behavior numerous times and risk being killed depending on how they escalate the conflict before they can get you out of their hair.

[Haevacht]

Nonantag criminals should atleast cooperate when in the brig. Making security's life hell, ghosting after first brigging and all that is a huge way to find shitters that should be banned

Like be a dick, fine, but at least own up to it.

This. Also make it obvious you're cooperating, get out of lockers/boxes and the like, rest. You'll probably still cop a tase but you make it an easy shot which is nice.

[Screemonster]

if you're going to act like that special sort of cunt that security players don't want to have to put up with giving them trouble for the entire round then don't be surprised when they toss your ass in perma just so they don't have to deal with your bullshit any more.

Kinda like the longstanding policy that if someone kicks your ass out of their department and you deliberately go back to fuck with them a second time, they're allowed to do whatever's necessary to ensure you don't fuck with them again.