Emagging borgs - allowed to cry for help?

[Arianya]

When a borg is emagged, there's a substantial gap of time between the emagging starting and the borg receiving new laws.

As there was some confusion on the server today as to whether it was kosher for borgs to cry out during this period, I thought we could all use a policy thread!

Please discuss: Should borgs be allowed to cry for help, on radio or the borg channel, in the time it takes for the emag to kick in?

[Saegrimr]

I thought the emagging process stunned them for some amount of time, and if it doesn't why not

[Arianya]

While they can't move, they can by all accounts talk.

[Saegrimr]

I guess that just depends on how much they want to be blown immediately.

"HELP BEING EMAGGED"
"Uhhh.. Just kidding guys not emagged at all, heh *beep "

[Cayce]

Emaggers:

Flash that fucking borg before, during, and just once after, and then confirm it's got your laws, and it can't scream for help.

[Armhulen]

I guess that just depends on how much they want to be blown immediately.

"HELP BEING EMAGGED"
"Uhhh.. Just kidding guys not emagged at all, heh *beep "

Cant blow emagged borgs

[cedarbridge]

I guess that just depends on how much they want to be blown immediately.

"HELP BEING EMAGGED"
"Uhhh.. Just kidding guys not emagged at all, heh *beep "

Cant blow emagged borgs

You definitely can. A detonated emagged borg deletes the MMI as well. A normally blown borg leaves its MMI. This has been the case since forever.

Flashes now mute borgs and prevent binary chat as well. If you're going to emag a borg you'd better sneak up on him or flash his shit.

As to whether borgs should be "allowed" that comes down to silicon policy and lawsets. Presuming a base ASMIOV, the borg would be justified and even obligated to prevent its own emagging or alert the station of the tampering. The borg knows that the intent is to convert them into a weapon with altered laws that would allow and likely lead immediately to station harm. Their inaction would allow humans to come to harm, therefore they are obligated under Law 1 to prevent their own conversion into an armed killing machine. If we are going to write in a rule that they aren't "allowed" to do this (why) then we're going to have to reconsider how it interacts with borg laws. A similar calculus happens when you introduce Corporate. Corporate laws require the AI and borg to "minimize expenses." Replacing a sabotaged borg is expensive, in material and work hours. Sabotage in general, especially that caused by a hijacked borg, is exceptionally expensive to repair and/or replace. Thus, the borg is obligated to avoid subversion in order to minimize those potential expenses.

Don't ban borgs for following their laws no matter how many antags get outed for not carrying a flash.

[BeeSting12]

I guess that if the laws haven't been added, it's okay to do so. Wouldn't make sense from an OOC perspective, but if you want to do it, then get yourself blown, by all means.

[Armhulen]

give them syndicate laws THEN go through the whole hacking process

done, easy fix

[Xhagi]

Probably treat it the same as being turned to a clockcult/regular cult. Up till you are actually converted, feel free to scream and yell all you want.

Just, you know, expect to be arrested/killed/blown if you indicate you are being converted/emagged.

[Anonmare]

When I play cyborg and I know someone is trying to emag me, I avoid them as much as possible but i don't yell. It was always my opinion that:
Possession of emag = Enemy of the Corporation = Almost assured death sentence if caught

I wouldn't go up to an emagger and say "Emag pls" but if I knew you had one, I'd avoid you like you had scale itch.

[cedarbridge]

When I play cyborg and I know someone is trying to emag me, I avoid them as much as possible but i don't yell. It was always my opinion that:
Possession of emag = Enemy of the Corporation = Almost assured death sentence if caught

I wouldn't go up to an emagger and say "Emag pls" but if I knew you had one, I'd avoid you like you had scale itch.

Some of my favorite experiences with AI/Borg subversion have always been unexpected. Hidden uploads are super fun and the response from the AI/Borgs to suddenly getting new or replacement laws when there's nobody in the upload adds to the fun. Trying to brute force emag a borg is usually sloppy and makes for sloppy results.

[XDTM]

I love building a hidden upload and start shaking the AI toy until a fun law comes up, and then see the AI's reaction

[firecage]

Well, from personnel experience, you can get bwoinked if you scream for help just BEFORE being emagged. Since apparently said traitor went through all the effort to wisk you away, and its unfair against them or something.

Basically, I got flashed and dragged away to toxin storage, when I could see again, the guy was holding an emag in his hand, and a crowbar in his other hand. So I yelled and said I was about to be emagged over the radio before he did it. Apparently it was an extremely bad thing to do.

[XDTM]

If he didn't even use it yet it shouldn't have been bad, but if a traitor actually manages to swipe it i think the borg should already be considered emagged; the scrolling error text is likely for flavor more than to let the borg call for help.

[cedarbridge]

If he didn't even use it yet it shouldn't have been bad, but if a traitor actually manages to swipe it i think the borg should already be considered emagged; the scrolling error text is likely for flavor more than to let the borg call for help.

IIRC the "new law" hack tooltip shows up before the text box scroll text finishes and appears about instantly after emagging. That's a tad more reliable.

[Screemonster]

Where does the emagging show in the logs, exactly? That might be a source of confusion if it's like...

1. person swipes an emag on the borg
2. borg gets big YOU ARE BEING HACKED
3. admin logs say "badman mcantag emagged loyal mcasimov"
4. borg yells for help
5. borg finally receives new laws
6. borg gets bwoinked for yelling for help after the admin saw the emag message.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Fun fact, I'm the reason borgs get locked down during an emag because I got emagged on PALADIN while beating the emagger up and kept hitting him until my laws actually changed to syndicate

Personally I think either they should be completely muted and helpless from the moment of emag swipe until emagged, or given the laws immediately and leaving the text crawl as a fluff-only effect.

[Sweaterkittens]

Fun fact, I'm the reason borgs get locked down during an emag because I got emagged on PALADIN while beating the emagger up and kept hitting him until my laws actually changed to syndicate

That's fucking 10/10, oh my god. That visual is priceless.

Personally I think either they should be completely muted and helpless from the moment of emag swipe until emagged, or given the laws immediately and leaving the text crawl as a fluff-only effect.

I agree with this sentiment. Even if we establish a policy on this, you can't really blame someone for not following it one way or the other, because it's not particularly clear or intuitive based on the fact that it's so slow to update your laws. That being said, I personally think emagging cyborgs is far, far too easy right now, being that you can perform it silently and within less than a second if you're quick with swapping hands. That's probably another issue, though.

[Deitus]

it would be difficult to enforce this kind of thing since it could extend to things like cult and rev conversions too

"GUYS HELP X GOT ME WITH RATVAR STUN HE'S TRYING TO--i mean uh just kidding"

this isnt something really enforceable because there's a chance you could get away, and a lot of people wouldn't like a rule saying that you basically have to roll over and play dead when captured

[Armhulen]

I thought Ratvar conversion muted? I thought most if not all hoomie conversion modes muted?

emag doesn't

[onleavedontatme]

Doesn't need a rule, just make it stun.

Probably more posts in this thread than times this has ever happened though.

[lzimann]

Well, I fixed with code instead of a weird ruling that would annoy more than help, so I am closing this thread since it's no longer relevant.