Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by oranges » #251854

Bottom post of the previous page:

Can we please please please make it a policy to not extend a ban because someone dared to bother appealing it and defending themself?

The current example would be sk upping robustins one day ban to a three day one - I think there have been a few in the past but I always argued against them as well and can't really be bothered to find the exact threads.

Irrespective of what they did to receive the original ban this is a highly toxic thing to do in a community because it dissuades people from appealing their bans even when they are particularly unjust or based on faulty information because you might catch an admin in a bad mood and just get more time added to your ban.

People should be allowed to argue their case without fear of further retribution - when someone continues to argue beyond the point of reasonableness the answer is to tell them that and then ignore future attempts to engage, not up their ban length. Also I find that the whole concept of someone being a "rules lawyer" is inherently silly anyway, it's not a crime to exhaustively detail and lay out your defense in a ban, and admins should at least respect the effort the person is putting in, if not the effect it has.

To me it seems like the admin team are no longer interested in justifying their own bans!

Anyway i hope you will consider it, it's not a good tool to have in the admin toolbox and in my opinon it's worth removing the ability to do so.
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Cobby » #252571

Steelpoint wrote: Bans are meant to ensure the banned player is given time to reflect on why they were banned and how to avoid it in the future. With the hope that they won't commit that act again and they'll be a better player for it.
So you agree with SK in the fact that bans COULD be raised if the banning administrator does not feel the initial ban length has given the individual adequate time to reflect on why they were banned and avoid it in the future?

At what line do you want the moderator to stop at when they feel as though someone is not getting the message? Is it possible that "making an appeal" and "not understanding why you're banned" are convoluted together [because "extending bans because someone appealed" is misleading]?

I'm just a little confused as to where people want to draw this moderator-equivalent of "rule 10" where sometimes you just lose at explaining to someone why they're wrong, and why is that okay when it [particularly this incident] negatively impact's people on the game [which could be yourself next-time].

I mean the alternative to this is to ban for longer and shorten as they appeal, but telling people to appeal for their ban to be lessened just seems like busywork for both them and the administrator.
Last edited by Cobby on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
Wyzack
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
Byond Username: Wyzack

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Wyzack » #252572

I miss Big Faggot he was funny
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3
certified good poster
User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Arianya » #252634

My feelings in a few bulletpoints:

1. Extending bans is probably okay if the ban appeal reveals the player doesn't really show any contrition or regret for what they did.

1a. Obviously, this shouldn't affect things if they are such because they believe their action itself wasn't wrong/against the rules

1b. It'd probably be okay to make extending bans a headmin only decision as part of a ban appeal resolution.

2. Ban appeals isn't for getting an explanation of your ban. That should either happen before the ban or in #supportbus. Its Ban Appeals not Ban Explanations.

2a. We have PMs on the forums! If you can't get ahold of your banning admin on IRC for whatever reason, shoot him a PM. If you're lucky hes an unobservant turd and you can complain to the headmins about him ignoring you!

3. lmao why does robustin get to complain about an admin standing his ground in an appeal when he linked to a thread where he, as an admin, continued to complain about a behaviour after a then-headmin told him it was allowed and resolved the appeal.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by oranges » #252670

If someone doesn't get the point of the ban they will reoffend, at which point you can feel free to lay down the biggest ban in your arsenal, doing it because they appealed is prosecuting them before they commit the crime.
User avatar
John_Oxford
Github User
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:19 am
Byond Username: John Oxford
Github Username: JohnOxford
Location: The United States of America

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by John_Oxford » #252677

>be oranges
>post a thread in FnR about admins doing something shitty
>lots of people agree with him
>oxford agrees with him
>he fails to realize one true meme

>admin accountability


On a serious note however, yes. This is a very valid point, what i'm trying to say is even if we all mutually agree its a shit thing to do i sincerely doubt it'll have an effect on the outcome of any of the current or future bans because admins are held to a standard by the host, not the community. It's just smoke in the mirror, a illusion that players control what admins do.
Bill Rowe - Used for everything // SYS-OP - AI // SYS-USR - Cyborg
https://gyazo.com/07cbe7219ba24366c1f655ad6c56a524

Signature Content:
Spoiler:
Offical In-Game rank:
Image

Image

Image

Image
TechnoAlchemist wrote:you where always right john, you where always right
>implying the admin conspiracy wasen't just confirmed by a admin.
see, i told you motherfuckers.
NikNakFlak wrote:this isn't a game you can't just post whenever you want
I don't even know what the fuck tg is.

Image

Image
User avatar
Qbopper
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:34 pm
Byond Username: Qbopper
Github Username: Qbopper
Location: Canada

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Qbopper » #252695

John_Oxford wrote:It's just smoke in the mirror, a illusion that players control what admins do.
if the admin team doesn't take the opinions of the playerbase seriously, people will leave and the server will die
Limey wrote:its too late.
Jacough
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:24 pm
Byond Username: Jacough

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Jacough » #252699

Wyzack wrote:I miss Big Faggot he was funny
How does one butt fuck that which has no anus?

The Big Faggot knows
Image
User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Cobby » #252705

Qbopper wrote:
John_Oxford wrote:It's just smoke in the mirror, a illusion that players control what admins do.
if the admin team doesn't take the opinions of the playerbase seriously, people will leave and the server will die
You fell for the oxford trap where even if he says I'm serious he really isn't serious
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint
Location: The Armoury

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Steelpoint » #252707

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:So you agree with SK in the fact that bans COULD be raised if the banning administrator does not feel the initial ban length has given the individual adequate time to reflect on why they were banned and avoid it in the future?

At what line do you want the moderator to stop at when they feel as though someone is not getting the message? Is it possible that "making an appeal" and "not understanding why you're banned" are convoluted together [because "extending bans because someone appealed" is misleading]?

I'm just a little confused as to where people want to draw this moderator-equivalent of "rule 10" where sometimes you just lose at explaining to someone why they're wrong, and why is that okay when it [particularly this incident] negatively impact's people on the game [which could be yourself next-time].

I mean the alternative to this is to ban for longer and shorten as they appeal, but telling people to appeal for their ban to be lessened just seems like busywork for both them and the administrator.
If someone appeals their ban, and fails to understand why they were banned to the point of being obtuse, then the mere fact that they are being warned by admins that their prior actions will result in a ban should be warning enough for them to not do it again. Also if they do then proceed to do the same act again you'll be fully justified to ban them for a very long time.

I disagree with extending someone's ban if they appeal because there's little chance their ban would have been extended if they never appealed in the first place.
Image
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by oranges » #254921

headmin response
Cw3040
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:33 pm
Byond Username: Cw3040

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Cw3040 » #255393

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:I'm guilty of this shit myself but it really is a pretty shitty thing to do, even if they do deserve it.
You're a shit admin for doing this.

Less shit for admitting it, but still very shit.

Any admin who does this should be fired on the spot.
Really fires up those neurons.
Spoiler:
GREYTIDE STATIONWIDE
ImageImage
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by oranges » #255752

beerobot wrote:headmin response
pls
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by oranges » #256505

beerobot wrote:
beerobot wrote:headmin response
pls
headmins pls
User avatar
Qbopper
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:34 pm
Byond Username: Qbopper
Github Username: Qbopper
Location: Canada

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Qbopper » #256570

beerobot wrote:
beerobot wrote:
beerobot wrote:headmin response
pls
headmins pls
literally the equivalent of praying 30 times in one round for a TC trade
Limey wrote:its too late.
User avatar
lntigracy
Confined to the shed
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:23 pm
Byond Username: Intigracy

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by lntigracy » #256585

more equivalent to adminhelping someones griefy behavior in one round over the course of multiple rounds when your initial adminhelp is completely ignored by lazy admins my man
Image
in advance of my eventual forum ban, I just wanted to say
you are mom is gay
User avatar
Armhulen
Global Moderator
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: bazelart
Location: The Grand Tournament

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Armhulen » #256591

beerobot wrote:
beerobot wrote:
beerobot wrote:headmin response
pls
headmins pls
our wonderful headmins
okand - left
krusvik - inactive
tehsteveo - good boy but looking above probably swamped in work
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by oranges » #256594

you realise lzimann replaced okand right?
User avatar
Armhulen
Global Moderator
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:30 pm
Byond Username: Armhulenn
Github Username: bazelart
Location: The Grand Tournament

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by Armhulen » #256599

i was wondering why we had that site moderator thing

okay well that's better than i thought
User avatar
TehSteveo
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:31 am
Byond Username: TehSteveo
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by TehSteveo » #257252

Extending bans due to appeals does set a bad precedent; which is why I lifted Oldman's ban early due to the extension. I made clear when I responded that it didn't mean they were right; just that the extension wasn't the greatest.

As far as extension to bans when someone appeals; they should relatively be reserved more for Headmin and host. Something that is a tool available but shouldn't be utilized often. Similar to I suppose rule zero as rule zero bans can either be really flimsy which get overturned or have a strong case to support them.
Freedom
User avatar
starmute
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:48 pm
Byond Username: Starmute

Re: Extending bans because someone appealed your ban

Post by starmute » #259503

Steelpoint wrote:At the end of the day, extending someone's ban because they appeal it is simply one of the worst things a admin can do to demonstrate they should not be a admin.

Bans are meant to ensure the banned player is given time to reflect on why they were banned and how to avoid it in the future. With the hope that they won't commit that act again and they'll be a better player for it.

Banning someone for appealing a ban when they think they have grounds to do so serves no purpose what so ever, but in fact it serves to do the opposite.

Also as I mentioned earlier, I believe that banning someone for making a ban appeal is one step below banning someone for criticising a admin. The moment /tg/ becomes known for banning people for criticising admins and banning people for appealing possibly unfair or misunderstood bans is the moment /tg/ will end, or at least never recover in population outside of server hub players.

EXACTLY

Steelpoint have a beer

.~~~~.
i====i_
|cccc|_)
|cccc|
`-==-'
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]