Antags, Security and Admin Policy

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Wyzack
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Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Wyzack » #256373

Bottom post of the previous page:

So this is a discussion that i think we have needed to have for a while, not only related to our game policies but the type of game we want this to be. While I felt compelled to make this thread after the little snafu this morning with Elynia's note for impersonating security, thread here, it is not i think the only reason we need to talk about it.

history lesson wall of text spoilered
Spoiler:
A long time ago any role could be an antagonist, including all of security and the captain. In a lot of ways these days were very bad. I remember being a bright eye'd newbie chef back in 2013 and being so excited that the Head of Security asked me to the brig to ask me a few questions about potential crime i had seen, only to have him fucking murder me in interrogation and toss my corpse in a locker never to be found. At the time i was shocked and a little mad, but in hindsight it was pretty fucking funny.

My memories of the transition are not terribly clear, but i seem to recall we were having some other issues with mistrust of security at the time combined with some pretty hefty greytide problems and it was decided to try exempting security from antag roles. I was just really hitting my stride for playing sec at the time and i was all for it. At the time i think it was a positive thing as it along with a few other things like loosening scrutiny of sec post-SOS era dealt with the issues we were having at the time
Cut to current day. Because of these exemptions and lax restrictions on sec we have seen a few fallout effects. Security has this sort of weird OOC meta trust which in my opinion has become very unhealthy for gameplay. As seen in that note appeal if an antag successfully impersonates someone from security (in my opinion a difficult and interesting way to use your traitor round) they become nigh untouchable because people are too afraid to retaliate against obvious shitsec due to fear of admin repercussions. This also means that nonantag sec are able to get away with more flagrant acts of shitcurity, as they will likely not get any OOC intervention due to sec having more leeway and everyone being too afraid to retaliate IC.

This also causes secondary problems such as a lack of minor IC crime, people are less willing to fuck about and get in conflicts that do not fly to murder on either side as non antags for fear of overwhelming security repercussions and being labelled a shitter. This has been the status quo for long enough now that it is becoming more accepted as the norm by admins and players alike, and i really really truly believe that this is seriously hurting the game and making it less fun overall.

I am a firm believer in less admin intervention/more IC resolution of conflicts, but regardless of how you feel about these things i think that at the very least it is worth trialing security and captains in antagonist roles again. In a game that was built on paranoia, mistrust and imperfect information people having more OOC guarantees about things really takes away from the experience and causes administrative nightmares. Sorry for the fuckhueg wall of text.


TL:DR please consider bringing back antagonist security and headroles, I really believe that it will cause an increase to the quality of gameplay once the initial shock has passed
Last edited by Wyzack on Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by CPTANT » #258311

Steelpoint wrote:The day you could do whatever you want to someone who breaks into Caps office at round start was a glorious day indeed.

Considering we are going this far off topic, it seems this discussion has run to a halt, at least to the contents of the OP.

Perhaps Security Antag may be, imo, more viable if we see a combat rework and make stuns less ggnore.
Yes even though it is still stated literally in the precedents that it is ok.
6. Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.
I decided to test that as HoS and I dumped an assistant who broke into captains office and punched the captain at roundstart out of an airlock.

Then I got an admin tirade about how it it wasn't ok, and not fun for the other party bla bla.
Last edited by CPTANT on Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Steelpoint » #258315

Then that admin is in the wrong. Plane and simple.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by PKPenguin321 » #258461

^ yeah that
If you got a note for that or whatever let me know when I get back later this week and I'll remove it for you and talk to the handling admin

Once when I was captain a mime broke into my office so I lasered him to death, defibbed him, lasered him again, then tossed him to the geneticists. In other words I can confirm this is fine to do rules wise
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by bandit » #258471

The topic has wandered somewhat from my original point, which is that "restoring sec antag will make graytiders drag away criminals!" is a bullshit argument because this happens whether sec is antag or not.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Arianya » #258719

The point is that sec mistrust makes secs job harder, which makes antags jobs much easier.

Its already not uncommon for nukies/revs to get a leg up because un-antagged greytiders are fucking with sec in various ways, leading to the round be a complete wash, and this is the case when sec officers are 100% never antagonists.

If you give people reasonable cause to suspect sec, as well as the requisite change whereby people can "retaliate" for being arrested, you're also going to have to rebalance every antagonist around a lessened security presence.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Reece » #258832

Yeah real talk. The moment some shit murders an officer is the moment I start lethallling criminals.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by ShadowDimentio » #258853

bandit wrote:The topic has wandered somewhat from my original point, which is that "restoring sec antag will make graytiders drag away criminals!" is a bullshit argument because this happens whether sec is antag or not.
The difference is if they do that now they have practically no defense for their actions when get ahelp'd or executed besides "I wanted to save my metafriend" whereas bringing sec antag back means they can claim "I thought sec was antag" for whatever reason.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Qbopper » #258974

ShadowDimentio wrote:
bandit wrote:The topic has wandered somewhat from my original point, which is that "restoring sec antag will make graytiders drag away criminals!" is a bullshit argument because this happens whether sec is antag or not.
The difference is if they do that now they have practically no defense for their actions when get ahelp'd or executed besides "I wanted to save my metafriend" whereas bringing sec antag back means they can claim "I thought sec was antag" for whatever reason.
And then you ask "what made you think that" - if they say "they arrested my friend" then you can laugh at them
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Davidchan » #259182

Arianya wrote:The point is that sec mistrust makes secs job harder, which makes antags jobs much easier.
Generally a player problem though. Greytide doing what they do and somehow not getting a ban for repeated bullshit, and security players basically doing the same thing but its okay when they do it because they spawned with a stunclub so their just enforcing TEH LAWZ (even though said law is optional and security can drag off anyone for any made up charge)
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by WarbossLincoln » #259262

I haven't read the whole thread yet but it seems like a big concern about traitor sec is that they have too much gear.

Solution: Scaling TC for traitor sec. Maybe sec officers get half TC. Maybe the HOS and Warden get no TC because they have armory access. IC logic could be that maybe since they are under more scrutiny the syndicate couldn't slip them as good of an uplink, or no uplink.


Also, one of my fondest moments in SS13 was as a traitor CMO. I got some clothes that kinda looked like a big game hunter's outfit. Made a chloral syringe(back when it was almost instant) and put it in a gun. I hid behind a plant and waited for the clown to come by. Once I bagged the clown I took him to surgery and implanted a signaler grenade full of polyacid smoke(again back when it was anabolic). I tagged the clown with a labeler and released him back out into the wild and waited. When the shuttle arrived I saw the clown standing next to my target in line so I triggered the grenade and gassed my target and like 6 other people. Best green text ever.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by WarbossLincoln » #259269

Arianya wrote: Its already not uncommon for nukies/revs to get a leg up because un-antagged greytiders are fucking with sec in various ways, leading to the round be a complete wash, and this is the case when sec officers are 100% never antagonists.
I played a round once where some random assistant stole the nuke disk near round start. Turned out to be a nuke ops round and the ops found him in maint somewhere and shot him.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by bandit » #259737

Qbopper wrote:And then you ask "what made you think that" - if they say "they arrested my friend" then you can laugh at them
Yeah, part of being an admin is learning to tell when people are bullshitting you, fortunately most graytiders are poor at bullshitting
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by cedarbridge » #259796

bandit wrote:
Qbopper wrote:And then you ask "what made you think that" - if they say "they arrested my friend" then you can laugh at them
Yeah, part of being an admin is learning to tell when people are bullshitting you, fortunately most graytiders are poor at bullshitting
Some don't even try.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Qbopper » #259846

cedarbridge wrote:
bandit wrote:
Qbopper wrote:And then you ask "what made you think that" - if they say "they arrested my friend" then you can laugh at them
Yeah, part of being an admin is learning to tell when people are bullshitting you, fortunately most graytiders are poor at bullshitting
Some don't even try.
the best part is when they admit to wrongdoing and then get angry they got banned anyways
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by cedarbridge » #259848

Qbopper wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
bandit wrote:
Qbopper wrote:And then you ask "what made you think that" - if they say "they arrested my friend" then you can laugh at them
Yeah, part of being an admin is learning to tell when people are bullshitting you, fortunately most graytiders are poor at bullshitting
Some don't even try.
the best part is when they admit to wrongdoing and then get angry they got banned anyways
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Wyzack » #259850

This has been a pretty good thread in terms of discussion stuff. I think it is pretty clear that if we ever did re-trial it again we would need certain caveats for security role antagonists, such as specific shitcurity objectives or less/no TC as was suggested here.

I want to consider trialing this once the next batch of headmins are in and i have had a chance to get back into the game a bit more
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Qbopper » #259855

we should trial "if you play sec and you deal any damage to anyone you get perma'd"

EDIT: oh shit this isn't the hut what am I doing
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Wyzack » #259858

Its okay Qbopper shitposting is a way of life. ONE OF US ONE OF US ONE OF US
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by Qbopper » #259859

Wyzack wrote:Its okay Qbopper shitposting is a way of life. ONE OF US ONE OF US ONE OF US
I'm in TOO FUCKING DEEP
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by starmute » #260167

Wyzack wrote:

TL:DR please consider bringing back antagonist security and headroles, I really believe that it will cause an increase to the quality of gameplay once the initial shock has passed
Here's the thing. While I understand where you are coming from somewhat I disagree with you too. Security is often undermaned and people CAN and DO infiltrate it. I don't like the idea of the RD beating security to death for coming into his department.

example :https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=7759



Now here's how I would get AROUND the problem.

Make a fake sec implant bug so it looks like you are a sec officer without the sec uniform. Combine that with a chamelion shirt you might be able to pass yourself off as a sec officer and abuse the trust of sec.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by NikNakFlak » #260262

The fact that you use one of the most autistic threads on the forums as an example of anything just instantly makes your argument bad. That thread is literally legendary for being stupid.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by starmute » #260369

NikNakFlak wrote:The fact that you use one of the most autistic threads on the forums as an example of anything just instantly makes your argument bad. That thread is literally legendary for being stupid.
It literally shows the point of why you shouldn't have antag sec. Yes it is one of the shittiest threads yet it shows how shitty people can be and you should show the worst case scenario first.
Last edited by starmute on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Antags, Security and Admin Policy

Post by NikNakFlak » #260441

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