/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

if it's for no reason (roundstart assault, random shove stun fnr, tabling kevinz fnr) yeah ahelp that shit.

but I see pax with a welder and a welding fuel tank, I'm shooting that tank even if it gibs/dismembers his body

same goes with the other metagroups, if I arrest one and he screams for help, I'm locking down the brig and sitting in a closet with a shotgun waiting for them to arrive.

It's human nature to learn and adapt.

J_Madison wrote:but I see pax with a welder and a welding fuel tank, I'm shooting that tank even if it gibs/dismembers his body

i don't think i've ever seen anyone dig their own grave as aggressively as this

like, seriously, I don't think it matters if you're right or wrong, outright admitting to this sort of thing in a ban appeal is a horrifically bad idea

Just have J_Mad play on some different servers and then come back and appeal in a few months if he can get a few admins to vouch for him as a decent individual. If he can get a few admins on other servers to feel that he's a cool guy and fun to play with then yeah, it's probably a good sign he's changed and should be given another chance. If not, well that just confirms he's just a toxic individual that just doesn't belong on the server.

Kevinz - an admin at citadel was well aware and was invited to the channel itself, as was later Owegno should want to keep an eye on my promises.

Uh what are you talking about
I'm on the channel but there's no fucking way I'd approve of a server raid. Doesn't matter what restrictions you would place on it (I wasn't even aware of this ..? I just heard oh hey let's go raid citadel tomorrow evening)

Also for the "ruined 3/4 of the game to validhunt" you'd think I stopped otherwise I would have run into issues by now hmm?

Qbopper wrote:

J_Madison wrote:but I see pax with a welder and a welding fuel tank, I'm shooting that tank even if it gibs/dismembers his body

I don't think it matters if you're right or wrong, outright admitting to this sort of thing in a ban appeal is a horrifically bad idea

Do you want to continue playing your round?

Are you going to lie to yourself about what is right or wrong, and what you're going to do?
There's nothing wrong with admitting you'll let someone walk over your round without consequence if that's what you like.

I want to play my round with as little disruption as possible.
It's me or you.

If I don't shoot, I might go into crit, may lose a leg, could die, maybe someone pickpockets me when I'm down.
And what're they gonna do? Take my stuff, mark it down as an IC issue, continue to greytide or welderbomb?

kevinz000 wrote:

Kevinz - an admin at citadel was well aware and was invited to the channel itself, as was later Owegno should want to keep an eye on my promises.

Uh what are you talking about
I'm on the channel but there's no fucking way I'd approve of a server raid. Doesn't matter what restrictions you would place on it (I wasn't even aware of this ..? I just heard oh hey let's go raid citadel tomorrow evening)

Also for the "ruined 3/4 of the game to validhunt" you'd think I stopped otherwise I would have run into issues by now hmm?

Never said you approved. I just said you were aware and in the channel and you knew it.

Yeah I know you stopped, sort of, beam rifles, flight suits, adrenals implants in RND. I just found it infuriating that my gameplay is being marked down when there's a million times worse.

Here are some suggestions:

Read the rules and the precedents. Don't assume you understand them, and don't read them with the intent of finding ways out of whatever you think you did or didn't do. Just read them fresh, and think about the motivations behind the rules and why they might be there.

Think about how your actions and opinions and behavior might be viewed by someone who's enforcing those rules, but who doesn't have the knowledge of your intent or motivation. Don't do this from the perspective of explaining it to someone or vindicating yourself, just think about why people might react to you the way they do.

Try not to approach this ban as something improper that you have to correct, as something someone is accusing you of, or as anything else which results in you dismissing or explaining away any possible reasons for banning you.

Give the administration the benefit of the doubt here, at least a little: from our perspective, there are outstanding issues with your play style and behavior which have not been resolved. Read the posts that have already been made which explain those problems, and think about why we might feel that way about them rather than just dismissing or explaining why we're wrong.

Think about this: the vast majority of our regular players go hundreds or thousands of connections with very few notes, positive or negative.

Take some time to chill and let others chill. This is a spectacle at this point and the more annoying and troubling the ban appeal becomes for the administration to deal with, the less likely a rule zero ban is to be lifted, as that administrative overhead is usually a factor in the ban being placed in the first place.

I know you care about this game, but you weren't banned in a vacuum.

My bad I took your comment the wrong way.

imblyings wrote:It's not a successful appeal when an admin removes it because a rule 0 is going on.

You stated that you applied a rule 0 because you didn't feel like defending the ban. That's giving up on the ban, conceding so to speak. That sounds like a successful appeal to me.

Pedantic as the result of that ban appeal has no hold on this one regardless

MrStonedOne wrote:

imblyings wrote:It's not a successful appeal when an admin removes it because a rule 0 is going on.

You stated that you applied a rule 0 because you didn't feel like defending the ban. That's giving up on the ban, conceding so to speak. That sounds like a successful appeal to me.

Quote from the other thread:

This particular ban was lifted since jmad is not a patient person nor do I feel like contesting a ban I would have lifted after some time had passed.

It really doesn't sound like they "gave up on the ban" since they wanted to lift it anyway, sooner or later.
It's also quite unusual to instantly appeal a permaban, I doubt that anyone would accept the appeal under normal circumstances. Honestly, I really don't see how anyone can truly call it successful.

Lexorion wrote:It's also quite unusual to instantly appeal a permaban, I doubt that anyone would accept the appeal under normal circumstances. Honestly, I really don't see how anyone can truly call it successful.

Not to mention a permaban regarding metacomms which is typically dealer with harshly due to the fact that is one of the few ways to cheat in the game. Ironic that J_Mad claims that he doesn't expect double standards but expects to simply be excused for something that usually involves waiting a few months to appeal and even if successfully appealed typically involves harsh conditions such as only one person in the metacomms group being unbanned as well as a strict probation period where even a small offense warrants another permaban.

feem wrote:Here are some suggestions:

Read the rules and the precedents. Don't assume you understand them, and don't read them with the intent of finding ways out of whatever you think you did or didn't do. Just read them fresh, and think about the motivations behind the rules and why they might be there.

Think about how your actions and opinions and behavior might be viewed by someone who's enforcing those rules, but who doesn't have the knowledge of your intent or motivation. Don't do this from the perspective of explaining it to someone or vindicating yourself, just think about why people might react to you the way they do.

Try not to approach this ban as something improper that you have to correct, as something someone is accusing you of, or as anything else which results in you dismissing or explaining away any possible reasons for banning you.

Give the administration the benefit of the doubt here, at least a little: from our perspective, there are outstanding issues with your play style and behavior which have not been resolved. Read the posts that have already been made which explain those problems, and think about why we might feel that way about them rather than just dismissing or explaining why we're wrong.

Think about this: the vast majority of our regular players go hundreds or thousands of connections with very few notes, positive or negative.

Take some time to chill and let others chill. This is a spectacle at this point and the more annoying and troubling the ban appeal becomes for the administration to deal with, the less likely a rule zero ban is to be lifted, as that administrative overhead is usually a factor in the ban being placed in the first place.

I know you care about this game, but you weren't banned in a vacuum.

Alright man. I know you mean mean good at heart, there's a lot of perception and reality that we just can't check for everyone.

I would take my time to chill, I just want this cleared out. It feels like a forced chill on what normally wouldn't have happened.

I hate to stress out the administration over this. I and all the admins involved didn't expect this to turn into a full on rule 0.
Everyone expected PKP to handle it and was likely lifted.
That's what is stressing me and giving me the hubris to fight on.

I expect the same honesty I give out. I don't want to hold back or sugarcoat anything that has happened.

It's much easier to compare myself with others and ask "why aren't they banned? why am I the one in the firing line" than to accept my part in things right now.


I'd like some benefit of the doubt here given to me that there's a lot of false perceptions about me and the reality is only seen by a handful of people. I believe ausops is a fine admin that has been here for a long time, but things take a toll when everything is brought to argument. Yanking names and screaming "hey you missed a spot" isn't helping and is certainly not what I want to do.


There's a lot unresolved and a lot unanswered for.
I'll bear the truth and reality of what I do twisted and made into lies, though neither friends or haters can affect me, they can count on me but not too much.
I can wait and not tire of waiting, and I don't deal in lies.

Considering this ban was more on the basis of Jmad's role in the community in general, it might be wise to start talking about that rather than the previous metacomms ban.

Voice in the community. I just have to say that I have never seen someone so convinced they're above the law outside of white collar crime or politics.

He tries to weasel out of everything, and I feel like his insane bid to buy Byond or even just his old complaints of "I pay for the server listen to me or I'll stop!" are nothing more than bids for power to change the server rules so he never gets kicked for his antics. My god, if you wanna play politics so bad j_mad run for office.

Posting as someone who has been affected by jmads fuckery.

He was very slightly right in his ligger suspicions, as I told him privately, but stalking people is fucking stupid. You're not a mod, jmad.

Further, I know admins would use him to stalk people. Why encourage this shit?

He also needs to stop acting like he is the god of ss13, and that he decides what is right and wrong. This is prevalent based on his security issues. If multiple headmins say something you did or said was wrong, drop it.

I don't think he should be rule 0'd though. Not yet at least.

So, I started typing a post where I attempted to help explain this ban to J mad so he might have a better understanding.

Only the more I tried, the more I realized I myself don't actually understand this ban.

DrPillzRedux wrote: Further, I know admins would use him to stalk people. Why encourage this shit?

care to elaborate?

MrStonedOne wrote:So, I started typing a post where I attempted to help explain this ban to J mad so he might have a better understanding.

Only the more I tried, the more I realized I myself don't actually understand this ban.

why not have a chat with your headmins then instead of fueling the public spectacle

danno wrote:

DrPillzRedux wrote: Further, I know admins would use him to stalk people. Why encourage this shit?

care to elaborate?

It was discussed in the old discord last year, can't remember who said it. I think kor? It was about how a few admins were using jmad as an investigator in place of niknak.

MrStonedOne wrote:So, I started typing a post where I attempted to help explain this ban to J mad so he might have a better understanding.

Only the more I tried, the more I realized I myself don't actually understand this ban.

As I understand it it's a rule 0 ban for persistent shitty attitude, poor abrasives play style, an utter inability to admit ones faults. Unlike real life this is a fucking video game and one of the advantages of that is that when someone is a detriment to the server they can be removed without due process and a public trial. This is why rule 0 exists. Don't mind me though I'm irrelevant

Also what sawrge said

Someone was using the github PR titles to announce the names of traitors in the game. I don't think its being creepy or stalking to figure out the guys ckey (not actual peraonal information) so we can ban him and avoid having to disable a useful system.

Reading through all the ban appeal threads including the CMO ban, I feel J Mad falls under Rule 0 pretty easily. Every single post of his on these ban appeals, including his post on an admin complaint Desucake had regarding admins not properly dealing with J Mad being a massive shit as sec, point to J Mad generally being up his own ass.

The fact that a single person can stir up so much shit within a month should be really telling as to why he should be Rule 0'd.

I say upgrade to a forum ban at this point.

I like Jmad but he line-toes more than anyone I've seen. Every successful appeal has been a matter of him being technically right but still cuntish in general. As well as him apparently directly disregarding ausops telling him not to discuss bans in places that aren't logged during the metacomms appeal.

Nilons wrote:I like Jmad but he line-toes more than anyone I've seen.

this is probably why he got rule 0'd MSO

captain sawrge wrote:

MrStonedOne wrote:So, I started typing a post where I attempted to help explain this ban to J mad so he might have a better understanding.

Only the more I tried, the more I realized I myself don't actually understand this ban.

why not have a chat with your headmins then instead of fueling the public spectacle

What are you afraid of? It shouldn't be a problem to discuss it publically.

Nilons wrote:I like Jmad but he line-toes more than anyone I've seen. Every successful appeal has been a matter of him being technically right but still cuntish in general. As well as him apparently directly disregarding ausops telling him not to discuss bans in places that aren't logged during the metacomms appeal.

If this ban appeal goes through, I'll try my hardest to make sure it's the last, and I'll try to melt the heart of stone and try to be nicer. I've enjoyed making friends and playing on static names, and doing nicer things for people, and making amends to the past.

ausops telling me not to ever use discord was completely overlooked, it was an off comment on bwoinks or supportbus or something and was quickly forgotten about. I didn't realise that it would cause such a dispute and issue and had I known, I wouldn't have chatted to the admins with it.

oranges wrote:

captain sawrge wrote:

MrStonedOne wrote:So, I started typing a post where I attempted to help explain this ban to J mad so he might have a better understanding.

Only the more I tried, the more I realized I myself don't actually understand this ban.

why not have a chat with your headmins then instead of fueling the public spectacle

What are you afraid of? It shouldn't be a problem to discuss it publically.

adminbus doesn't run so well on open passive aggressive comments and irc facilitates live discussion much better than forum posting does with the added advantage of the peanut gallery from both players and admins not being an element

At this point, I don't think we're accomplishing anything here. We should really leave this thread for the headmins and jmad.

J_Madison wrote:

Nilons wrote:I like Jmad but he line-toes more than anyone I've seen. Every successful appeal has been a matter of him being technically right but still cuntish in general. As well as him apparently directly disregarding ausops telling him not to discuss bans in places that aren't logged during the metacomms appeal.

If this ban appeal goes through, I'll try my hardest to make sure it's the last, and I'll try to melt the heart of stone and try to be nicer. I've enjoyed making friends and playing on static names, and doing nicer things for people, and making amends to the past.

ausops telling me not to ever use discord was completely overlooked, it was an off comment on bwoinks or supportbus or something and was quickly forgotten about. I didn't realise that it would cause such a dispute and issue and had I known, I wouldn't have chatted to the admins with it.

It's obvious he gets it and feels bad about the misc shit leading up to this. Wouldn't probation be a good compromise between people who think this ban should not have been placed and people who think he should stay banned?

Well, there's some things in this thread i personally both agree and disagree with, from both sides. But J_Mad randomly deciding to attempt to drag me and random players into this appeal is certainly something that I'm sure nobody didn't expect.

Maybe the fact that the players in question were 'Conveniently Ignored' is because It's all in your head. In-fact it's quite unironic how you went about stating you were part of a group, had meta-friended before, and, lo and behold. Recently got banned for possible metacomms, attempting to plot a raid. Using buzzwords like 'Safari' to make it seem less terrible. All the while trying to paint others as the problem. Looks like a taste of your own medicine to me.

Your excuses of 'Being Drunk' and having a 'Conflicting Playstyle' and being 'Outspoken and Honest'. Believing that people have perceptions that are far from the 'reality' of the situation due to the ordeal is ironic and mirrors the effect you could and want to have on others with your 'investigations'.
I'd be both surprised and dissapointed if they did believe and let you off the hook, considering the hole you've dug for yourself. And these threads seem to just be digging it deeper.

Pascal125 wrote:Well, there's some things in this thread i personally both agree and disagree with, from both sides. But J_Mad randomly deciding to attempt to drag me and random players into this appeal is certainly something that I'm sure nobody didn't expect.

Maybe the fact that the players in question were 'Conveniently Ignored' is because It's all in your head. In-fact it's quite unironic how you went about stating you were part of a group, had meta-friended before, and, lo and behold. Recently got banned for possible metacomms, attempting to plot a raid. Using buzzwords like 'Safari' to make it seem less terrible. All the while trying to paint others as the problem. Looks like a taste of your own medicine to me.

Your excuses of 'Being Drunk' and having a 'Conflicting Playstyle' and being 'Outspoken and Honest'. Believing that people have perceptions that are far from the 'reality' of the situation due to the ordeal is ironic and mirrors the effect you could and want to have on others with your 'investigations'.
I'd be both surprised and dissapointed if they did believe and let you off the hook, considering the hole you've dug for yourself. And these threads seem to just be digging it deeper.

I didn't want to drag players in. It was never my intention. Pointing fingers and saying "hey you missed a spot" is childish and asinine. I only posted that as a protest to how jumped the gun the ban was.

I have doubted myself and thought it was in my head. Those doubts vanished when new groups form or DrPillz posting his side of the story.

I never said I was drunk. I was sober. The drunk person was someone else. That incident is over.

captain sawrge wrote:

MrStonedOne wrote:So, I started typing a post where I attempted to help explain this ban to J mad so he might have a better understanding.

Only the more I tried, the more I realized I myself don't actually understand this ban.

why not have a chat with your headmins then instead of fueling the public spectacle

Because any exclamation needs to happen here, publically, so jmad and others can understand too.

Regarding the irc PMs thing I mention: https://i.imgur.com/Qqq1oxf.png
I later asked Hippie admins about it and they say he has 4 connections there, none of them have heard of him, and he's never applied to be admin. I have no reason to believe his statements there and as far as I know he simply wanted to intimidate or level with me or something.

Anyways:
At least two out of three headmins agree: The ban sticks.
If you intend to appeal again I'd follow what most permabanned people do and wait at least 6 months to a year.

I keep getting pms asking me about this ban, so i figured I'd just sum them up publicly here:

I don't agree with this ban, in part because I think jmad is just socially stupid sometimes, and I find it hard to find fault in that for a rule 0 ban since he at least tries to be helpful. But I 1: Don't know how he acts in game, 2: Agreed to never override the headmins when they were unanimous (and in general, have make it a point to not override them at all), and 3: Don't know how jmad didn't get perma'ed for the desucake thing.