BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no shoes

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Oldman Robustin
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BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no shoes

Post by Oldman Robustin » #310173

Byond account and character name: ForcefulCJS - Robustin
Banning admin: BGOBandit
Ban reason and length:: Halfday ban since apparently critting someon counts as half a kill or something stupid like that.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 930EST
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Sybil

Its shortly after roundstart and a couple people are on the radio shouting about a shitty clown who has taken his shoes off in order to travel around faster. The crew isn't amused and as I stand there I see a roboticist or something run by while chasing the clown. I join the chase and according to BGO I threw the first punch.

A borg quickly intervenes and protects the clown but a couple other crewmembers have joined in and since I landed the most punches I was held responsible for the crit.

As soon as the I saw the clown go down I dragged him away from the mob and toward medbay. We were near the front of the bridge so in less than 10 seconds I had him in the medbay lobby. Unfortunately the dude succumbed ASAP with ~90 health left. That actually meant the clown did more damage to themselves than I did. Yet instead of BGO wondering why the clown was obviously ban-baiting (if you care about being crit, why the fuck would you succumb - if you care about being killed, WHY WOULD YOU SUCCUMB. The whole point is that there has never been an authentic ahelp from someone who deliberately succumbs so they add more weight to their complaint), he instantly jumped down my throat claiming that someone can only be ban-baiting if they initiated the fight, since the clown didn't initiate by removing his shoes, it was impossible for him to be ban-baiting. I tried my best to penetrate this toddler logic but to no avail, BGO held that critting a clown and then dragging him to medbay within seconds was equivalent to half an invalid kill, aka half a dayban.

This is from the same admin who brought you the "Yes its valid for security to kill someone for being on fire against their will as they roll on the ground trying to put out the fire". Each time I have to deal with BGO their terrible judgment becomes less and less amusing.

Critting someone and then instantly rendering them medical aid is equivalent to what? An oldschool 100 potency banana stun? Beating up clowns who take off their shoes for movement speed and mimes who talk are a classic tradition - theyre special roles that take on special disabilities and throwing those out at roundstart has always brought on a hostile reaction. Getting beat up and healed within 30 seconds is a polite warning as far as SS13 is concerned, but proceeding to ban one of the attackers, the same who sought to render medical aid ASAP, because the clown chose to immediately succumb - is the same category of my last post about BGO, completely irrational.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bandit
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by bandit » #310175

As I explained to you, it would be banbaiting if the clown instigated the situation or fought back. It did neither. Taking off one's shoes does not count as instigating. Expecting players to patiently wait to be beaten to a death they already know is coming is unreasonable, and succumbing does not erase the original situation.

Logs (in reverse order):
Spoiler:
43[01:19:35] *no key*/(Jo Jo): has been attacked by Orisno Weisengarber(orisno) with defibrillator(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -110) (139,123,2)
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42[01:19:32] *no key*/(Jo Jo): has been attacked by Orisno Weisengarber(orisno) with defibrillator(INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -105) (139,123,2)
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41[01:19:00] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been grabbed by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with aggressively (NEWHP: -100) (139,123,2)
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40[01:18:59] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been stripped by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with of the leather satchel (NEWHP: -100) (139,123,2)
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39[01:18:56] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been stripped by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with of the clown suit (NEWHP: -100) (139,123,2)
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38[01:18:56] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been stripped by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with of the black shoes (NEWHP: -100) (139,123,2)
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37[01:18:40] Spocky/(Jo Jo): Has succumbed to death with -11 points of health!
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36[01:18:38] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: -10) (97,127,2)
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35[01:18:37] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Kayo Hinazuki(cloudonian) with (NEWHP: -4) (97,127,2)
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34[01:18:36] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: -2) (97,127,2)
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33[01:18:35] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been disarmed by Orisno Weisengarber(orisno) with pushing them to the ground (NEWHP: 4) (97,127,2)
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32[01:18:35] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Kayo Hinazuki(cloudonian) with (NEWHP: 4) (97,126,2)
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31[01:18:33] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 6) (97,123,2)
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30[01:18:32] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 7) (98,125,2)
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29[01:18:30] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 8) (97,126,2)
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28[01:18:29] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has punched Jimmy Jelly(netherrocker) with (NEWHP: 86) (98,127,2)
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27[01:18:28] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has punched Jimmy Jelly(netherrocker) with (NEWHP: 89) (98,127,2)
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26[01:18:25] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Kayo Hinazuki(cloudonian) with (NEWHP: 13) (97,127,2)
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25[01:18:18] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Miya Misa(rainbowswaggins) with (NEWHP: 14) (97,130,2)
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24[01:18:17] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Miya Misa(rainbowswaggins) with (NEWHP: 18) (97,130,2)
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23[01:18:16] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Miya Misa(rainbowswaggins) with (NEWHP: 23) (97,133,2)
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22[01:18:13] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 30) (95,140,2)
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21[01:18:12] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 35) (92,140,2)
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20[01:18:11] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 42) (84,140,2)
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19[01:18:10] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 43) (76,140,2)
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18[01:18:09] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 47) (67,140,2)
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17[01:18:07] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 49) (54,137,2)
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16[01:18:06] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 57) (51,144,2)
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15[01:18:05] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 65) (60,142,2)
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14[01:18:04] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 74) (61,142,2)
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13[01:18:03] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 76) (70,142,2)
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12[01:18:02] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 85) (78,142,2)
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11[01:18:00] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 88) (85,142,2)
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10[01:17:59] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 94) (85,142,2)
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9[01:17:58] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 95) (85,142,2)
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8[01:17:58] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been disarmed by Jimmy Jelly(netherrocker) with pushing them to the ground (NEWHP: 96) (85,142,2)
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7[01:17:54] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has punched Jimmy Jelly(netherrocker) with (NEWHP: 95) (81,140,2)
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6[01:17:54] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been punched by Oldman Robustin(forcefulcjs) with (NEWHP: 96) (82,140,2)
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5[01:17:54] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been disarmed by Jimmy Jelly(netherrocker) with removing the emergency oxygen tank (NEWHP: 100) (82,140,2)
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4[01:17:40] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has been disarmed by Jimmy Jelly(netherrocker) with (NEWHP: 100) (96,129,2)
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3[01:16:54] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has shaked George Lucas(spacehobbit) with (NEWHP: 100) (100,120,2)
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2[01:16:53] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has shaked George Lucas(spacehobbit) with (NEWHP: 100) (100,120,2)
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1[01:16:52] Spocky/(Jo Jo): has shaked George Lucas(spacehobbit) with (NEWHP: 100) (100,120,2)
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As you can see:

1) You both started the actual punching (contrary to what you told me in ahelps, that others did) and were responsible for the vast bulk of it. (The other major parties involved were warned.)
2) The clown did not retaliate against you once.

Succumbing does not change the original situation, which is that you felt the need to crit a clown for literally nothing. This is not a "polite warning," it is going out of your way to shit on someone's round. That is why you were banned. This is not Nox, the clown does not exist to be griefed.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by lollerderby » #310189

try not critting clowns for bad reasons next time maybe
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Oldman Robustin
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by Oldman Robustin » #310191

I told you in ahelps that I thought someone else had started since I saw the roboticist or whoever chasing them down the hall. They were constantly juking each other and the roboticist started throwing blows as soon as he could so I figured given the shouting on radio that other people had already started fighting.

I never made any claim that the clown hit me or anyone else first.

There is also nothing in our ban bait policy (if such a thing exists) that says you have to be the initiator in order to ban bait. Ban baiting simply means ahelping (with the intention of getting someone in trouble) after taking deliberate actions to place the person in a situation where they would be in a potentially bannable situation.

Your belief that people are justified in this because its unreasonable to "patiently wait to be beaten to a death they already know is coming" is absurd. If I'm being dragged into maint with an esword tearing my guts out ill succumb early so I can get one last "Fuck you" out - that's reasonable. In a situation where a borg is actively helping you and one of your attackers is dragging you toward medbay, away from the mob, and no longer actively harming you... its ridiculous to say "well of course he was going to be murdered and he might as well succumb". That position is that basically any time you crit someone its tantamount to murder and only the saintly patience of the victim is what keeps anyone from getting banned for a crit that would otherwise be an invalid kill - is insane. If the clown cared about his life he wouldn't have succumbed the moment I dragged him away from the mob, that followed by the ahelp (that almost certainly happened after I left his corpse in the medbay lobby with a doctor) is a really clear case of ban-baiting. I'm really curious what their ahelp was for now...

Also your log undermines the argument that this isn't a well established tradition here. You ultimately had what, 6 different people trying to push or hit the clown? I took responsibility since I juked the borgs flashes and got the most hits in by trying to take them immediately to medbay. If the clown hadn't succumbed he would've been in perfect condition within 30 seconds (minus some staining). Rewarding the clown by banning me because he chose to succumb while being dragged to medbay with 90HP left is just a ludicrous position.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by Oldman Robustin » #310194

lollerderby wrote:try not critting clowns for bad reasons next time maybe
Try coming up with a coherent justification for this ban besides "you could've avoided it by being a better person" - because that can apply to any shit ban. People beat up clowns for taking off their shoes at roundstart. People beat up (or murder) mimes for talking at roundstart. This was an innocent conflict that wouldn't have inconvenienced anyone for more than a moment until the clown chose to both succumb and then ahelp about it. Then you've got a dead clown and a banned player and a step backwards for our policy until someone corrects it.

Earlier today I got crit for invalid reasons by a warden. It took multiple minutes out of my round and left me with low blood and most importantly it was during an emergency situation where we didn't have time to spare. I got a firm "no harm no foul" response because despite being low on blood I wasn't dying from it.

Clearly I should've just succumbed!
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by bandit » #310196

Our ban-baiting policy:
Baiting people into escalations or situations where you can report them to admins will be dealt with harshly.
It is meant to cover situations where:

A) somebody instigates shit and then tries to get the other person banned for responding
B) somebody gets in a mutually escalated fight and then tries to get the other person banned for "winning" the fight.

The policy is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for being shit and then claiming that the other person succumbing somehow erases all your shit behavior. And critting someone for no reason -- which you describe as "90HP left" like it's a JRPG but in practice means someone is unconscious, cannot play the game, and is basically out of the round unless someone intervenes -- is shit behavior. Taking off one's shoes does not mean "deliberate actions to place the person in a situation where they would be in a potentially bannable situation." It is not instigation. It is not escalating. It does not make the clown valid. It is literally just being barefoot. "I figured they already started fighting" is also not justification for you beating someone to crit, especially when you're wrong.

As for it being "well-established tradition" I spoke to Miya Misa and their reasoning was more or less "I saw a guy being beaten and joined in" (for which they were warned). Jimmy was the guy who started it, but he really just messed with the clown. He didn't beat the clown to death, in fact he never attacked at all. I didn't feel the need to talk to the people who landed like 1 or 2 punches. (This also goes for mimes. Talking mimes may be mocked and yelled at, but they are not valid.)

Their ahelp, for the record, was something like "is it a rule on this server that the clown can be killed for wearing no shoes?" I asked if they did something to provoke it and I fully expected there to be something more than wearing no shoes, but it doesn't seem like there was.
Last edited by bandit on Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by bandit » #310209

In case this is still unclear, think of it this way:

You didn't have to crit the clown. You didn't have to attack the clown. You didn't even have to interact with the clown at all. He did nothing to you. You could very well have left the clown alone to enjoy his round like you were enjoying yours. But you didn't. You felt the need to attack, to the point where he could no longer play the game. This is the one thing you cannot explain, besides "it's tradition" (it isn't) and an "innocent conflict" and "an inconvenience." Stealing the clown's bike horn is an innocent conflict. Punching once or twice is not the greatest behavior, but not a huge deal. Beating them to crit with no fighting back is grief.
Last edited by bandit on Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by imblyings » #310210

Look for traditions sake I'm not against bullying of clowns who don't wear shoes or mimes who talk but not to the extent that i start punching them a dozen times along with everyone else. Light bullying builds character, putting someone into crit makes new players who don't understand the meme confused and offput by the experience.

The whole crit/succumb thing seems irrelevant to the fact that it was a situation where no real amount of force should have been used in the first place. Could have bullied him on the radio, slipped him with water constantly, disarm spammed him while shouting at him etc
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by Armhulen » #310214

I believe that Succumbing, though, is extremely shit. Especially when he was GOING TO GET HEALED IN MEDBAY.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by Oldman Robustin » #310216

The fact they made their ahelp about being killed when they had ~90hp left and were being dragged toward medbay screams ban baiting to me.

To put it into perspective. The clown inflicted more damage on themselves when they succumbed (89 damage) than I did by punching them (80 damage).

Thats why this ban reeks. You carefully consider all the nuances for making a case AGAINST me but ignore everything I did to make the situation reasonable. The realistic answer here is that a crit is nothing more than a KO. There is ample evidence that in taking responsibility for dealing the most damage (largely because I'm more experienced, not for a lack of trying by others in the mob) I was bringing them to the medbay for healing. If the clown hadn't succumbed we would've had a definite record to work off of. But instead of penalizing the clown's ahelp because they chose to suicide and cut the encounter short, BGO is willing to not only ignore that fact, but accept the clown's assertion that it was already dead and I was simply going to murder him.

Their willingness to succumb also destroys the credibility of any argument that being knocked out for several seconds is somehow devastating to their round when they voluntarily chose to make it permanent. If they did this because of stupidity or inexperience, you could have used that opportunity to explain that being crit is not certain death in this game. Instead you chose to reinforce the worst possible approach to this conflict, that succumbing will immediately give you the grounds to ahelp about murder even when there was a 0% chance of you dying. Literally every day I get crit by people and if I succumbed on the spot I would have an argument for invalid killing. And just to answer you last point, yes the clown fought back, he was punching Jelly because Jelly was the easiest target and never tried to juke. I was juking like a madman while the clown punched another assailant the presented a much easier target.
imblyings wrote:Look for traditions sake I'm not against bullying of clowns who don't wear shoes or mimes who talk but not to the extent that i start punching them a dozen times along with everyone else. Light bullying builds character, putting someone into crit makes new players who don't understand the meme confused and offput by the experience.

The whole crit/succumb thing seems irrelevant to the fact that it was a situation where no real amount of force should have been used in the first place. Could have bullied him on the radio, slipped him with water constantly, disarm spammed him while shouting at him etc
Before I nerfed slip durations, one slip from the clown's banana represents roughly how long I took the clown out of the round (just to put it in perspective), even making the generous assumption that the 4 other people involved in attacking the clown wouldn't have seriously hurt or crit him had I not been present. I could make the argument that the clown would've been crit eventually regardless because he was trying to fight back against an entire mob and each punch he threw in his defense was a further guaranty that the mob wouldn't leave him alone until he went down (how many 5v1 fights have ended before crit when the 1 defender is throwing punches?), and that absent my presence the clown could've easily been beaten to death, snatched by an antag, had their crit body left somewhere undiscovered until death, etc. The same second the clown got crit, I had them pulled behind me and got them safely away from anyone else trying to harm him.

I believe our escalation policy is realistic. Putting someone into crit can mean everything from "I was stunned and unable to see or talk for about 5 seconds" to "I was permanently removed from the round and was unable to participate in the game for another 90 minutes". All crits are not created equal and any policy that tries to treat them as equal is doomed to some really unfair and downright stupid decisions. This was close to the best-case scenario for a crit. I instantly began pulling them to medbay, a borg was following to ensure their well-being, it was near roundstart and all the facilities were fully intact, and a doctor was present in the medbay lobby along with medical supplies being publicly available. My actions, ignoring the contributions of others, would have resulted in the clown being stunned+blinded+muted over a minor provocation for about 15-20 seconds at most. The clown, whether because of ban-baiting or just ignorance, chose to take themselves out of the round. I cannot think of any circumstance, even if it was unprovoked, that we have banned someone for a 20s stun/mute/blind - before we removed KO RNG you could achieve a similar effect for 30-40 seconds just by hitting someone in the head - and I have had more time taken out of my rounds through your alternatives of "disarm spamming" or "constant slipping" than I would have taken from the clown had he not succumbed.

For all the reasons I've described, I see no reason why my actions would be bannable. For the clown's violation of tradition, I put him on the ground for what would have been about 20 seconds. How long would the clown have spent on the ground if the rest of the crowd continued to punch and push him for the next few minutes? Even in the best case scenario we're talking about a ban for taking seconds out of someones round and giving absolutely 0 credit for them trying to render aid. That alone would be a terrible direction for our policy, for me its never been the critting that matters - like I said before crit can be a minor inconvenience or the worst infliction possible, it all depends on whether you get left to bleed out or are immediately rendered aid. Treating the former and the latter as equals is incomprehensible.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by bandit » #310218

You're still looking at this like it's a JRPG and all that matters is the numbers. The numbers are not the important part here. Nor is the length in seconds of the time you took the clown out of the round. (Which is a stupid argument, anyway, because someone being slipped can be helped up with far less hassle than bringing someone to medbay.) What matters is the intent and the playstyle. The "80 HP" or 20 seconds or whatever were caused by your beating the clown repeatedly, at length, for basically no reason, and the "89 HP" was the clown essentially deciding that they really didn't feel like dealing with getting beaten for no reason. These two things are not comparable. And it turns out that if your playstyle involves critting people for basically no reason, then you're going to find yourself in trouble with admins if you do not change that playstyle. The "best-case scenario" for a crit is it not happening in the first place unless there's a very good reason. You have had many, many opportunities to learn this.

Also, succumbing is irrelevant. It does not change the intent or playstyle. I'm not going to "punish the ahelp" for someone deciding they just don't want to deal with being beaten to death for something they didn't instigate. Can you really not see any reason why someone might not like being on the receiving end of this playstyle besides "he's trying to banbait me" or "he's ignorant"?
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by Oldman Robustin » #310225

Separately, Imblyings I get your argument. I understand how it could've been handled better - but there's a wide gap between "you could've handled that better" and banning someone for it. I don't know how often you play or what you play as but being crit is a normal part of SS13 for me. I've been crit because I managed to get the toolbelt at roundstart before another assistant could (several times for that reason actually), I've probably been crit at least a dozen times because I got the insulated gloves out of the vendor before anyone else. Yet as long as you get patched up at the end of the day it was nothing more than a long stun and minor theft - certainly not the kind of provocation that would ever justify banning someone else it was an every-round occurrence.

I find it ironic that today was also probably one of the only times I've ever Ahelped for being crit, mostly because I was rapidly losing blood, it was an emergency situation, and my history with that player usually meant I'd be straight jacketed to a bed for several minutes after I was healed... yet the admins response reflected the consensus I've known for years, that the chief consideration is how it affected your round... I was taken out of the round for about 60 seconds and was low on blood but that's not a huge deal so it was considered resolved. That's been how almost any crew conflict has been handled for as long as this server has been around.
bandit wrote:You're still looking at this like it's a JRPG and all that matters is the numbers. The numbers are not the important part here. Nor is the length in seconds of the time you took the clown out of the round. (Which is a stupid argument, anyway, because someone being slipped can be helped up.) What matters is the intent and the playstyle. The "80 HP" or 20 seconds or whatever were caused by your beating the clown repeatedly, at length, for basically no reason, and the "89 HP" was the clown essentially deciding that they really didn't feel like dealing with getting beaten for no reason. These two things are not comparable. And it turns out that if your playstyle involves critting people for basically no reason, then you're going to find yourself in trouble with admins if you do not change that playstyle. The "best-case scenario" for a crit is it not happening in the first place unless there's a very good reason. You have had many, many opportunities to learn this.

Also, succumbing is irrelevant. It does not change the intent or playstyle. I'm not going to "punish the ahelp" for someone deciding they just don't want to deal with being beaten to death for something they didn't instigate. Can you really not see any reason why someone might not like being on the receiving end of this playstyle besides "he's trying to banbait me" or "he's ignorant"?
Thank you for summing up whats wrong about your decision. People can always choose to leave the round. But that's always been THEIR CHOICE. Only in the most extreme scenarios (hundreds of units of morphine, trapped in a room with no hope of escape, sent to gulag with no ID, etc.) have we treated someone's voluntary choice to leave their body as 100% justified and tantamount to murder. Your complete indifference to the most important factor, the one most other admins use as their most crucial factor "How did another player's behavior affect your round?", shows how aloof from our policy you are. Nobody is arguing that critting the clown was necessary or required, it was behavior that unnecessarily interfered with another's round - yet that describes a huge number of player interactions every round, the kind of stuff that almost any other admin would call "an IC issue". By your logic I should ghost every time I get hit with a stun baton, or arrested for a "random search", or get chain tabled by another assistant, etc... because that person is unnecessarily interfering with my round and taking away control of my character for at least 15 seconds, I should just go catatonic and then ahelp that someone killed me for no reason. The clown was already being chased by several crew yelling about him on radio, my contribution was giving the clown enough damage to knock him out for less than half a minute before taking immediate action to undo any lasting effect from my behavior.

If I had a ban for every player who unnecessarily took 30 seconds or more out of my round, this would be a single-player game by now. Any player smart enough to know that removing clown shoes makes them go faster and how to immediately succumb is smart enough to know when someone is dragging them to medbay and if they refuse to wait the ~5 seconds it would've taken to get there then they deserve the same response anyone else gets them they voluntarily remove themselves from the game due a minor inconvenience - nothing. This was a ban bait and a fairly obvious one at that.

The irrefutable logic here is that if the clown gave such little shit about his round that he didn't want to wait 5 seconds to see whether he would be healed or not, it seems insane that you would believe I had somehow severely disrupted his round. When a player spends longer typing an ahelp than it would have taken to get healed, it gives you a big fucking clue about where their true priorities are. I can't emphasize enough how insane it is to argue that nobody should wait out a trip to the medbay, even when its literally around the corner, that literally any amount of time where you lose control of your character justifies ghosting and banning the perpetrator. Your right, we can't prevent them from ghosting, but we sure as hell can tell them to fuck off for a really transparent ban baiting effort.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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imblyings
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by imblyings » #310229

I have to cater paragraphs breaking down the fine mechanical equivalence between crit and banana peel slip times

I also have to cater to newer players who find it offputting to be crit for not wearing shoes as a clown

If you understand I have to juggle these two viewpoints along with myriad other viewpoints while not being on the server 24/7 to consistently arbitrate issues that's ok, then please extrapolate this to thinking about alternate and nicer ways of bullying players next time this happens.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by Oldman Robustin » #310236

imblyings wrote:I have to cater paragraphs breaking down the fine mechanical equivalence between crit and banana peel slip times

I also have to cater to newer players who find it offputting to be crit for not wearing shoes as a clown

If you understand I have to juggle these two viewpoints along with myriad other viewpoints while not being on the server 24/7 to consistently arbitrate issues that's ok, then please extrapolate this to thinking about alternate and nicer ways of bullying players next time this happens.
This discussion doesn't deserve paragraphs, this sort of thing has received almost uniform treatment here for the better part of a decade.

Our escalation rules boil down to "dont be a dick".

But on its face that's silly because every round has hundreds of interactions that boil down to someone being a dick, so the more accurate understanding has always been "Don't be a dick to the extent that your actions serve as a major disruption to someone else's enjoyment of their round". So people continue to do the sort of crazy but not that crazy stuff that makes SS13 a memorable experience. A group of 5 crew people swarmed the clown for dispensing with part of his wardrobe for convenience. This violation of tradition was irrationally offensive to some crewmembers. The crew members badly beat the clown to send a message and then the one who did most beatings saw to it that the clown be rushed to receive space-age medicine that would completely heal all the wounds in just a few seconds. The clown learns how seriously the crew takes his wardrobe choices but is left in perfect health with all their items intact. Classic SS13 with a happy ending.

OR

Same story but after the beating the clown suicided and then sought admin intervention. Instead of discussing it with the clown and encouraging more of scenario #1 (good ending), the admin reacted poorly and removed a player from the game and taught the clown a very bad lesson - that their ahelps will carry more weight if they voluntarily remove themselves from the round first. So one player is dead and the other banned when both could have been just fine.

This ones a no-brainer but unfortunately it was handled with a no-brain solution.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by NikNakFlak » #310237

This is dumb, ausops posted twice, if he any intention of lifting your ban, he would have done so, or should do so, stop beating around the bush, declare oldman in the right or in the wrong, nobody wants to read paragraphs about your dumb arguments about "exact health stats".
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by bandit » #310240

The thing you are not getting, and continue to not get, is that the majority of players see being put into crit as heavily disruptive to the enjoyment of their round. I don't give a shit how many times you are critted in the average day -- this is not about those times, and quite frankly, if this happens to you as often as you claim, then either you are being metagrudged (which could easily be solved by random appearance, or by ahelping) or you are instigating or escalating situations in some way (which could easily be solved by not). But clearly it bothers you enough to bring up. It is not a stretch to think that it might bother other people as well.

The other thing you are not getting is that clowns and mimes do not become valid for removing their shoes or talking. As long as I remember, these things have not made them valid, and you are treating it as if the mean ol' admins are preventing you from engaging in a glorious tradition of valids. You are completely ignoring the possibility of scenario 3: the clown removes his shoes, people might mock him a bit but refrain from beating the shit out of him, and none of this has to happen in the first place. If I didn't do anything, I would have taught the clown an even worse lesson: that this is a game where you can have the shit beaten out of you for almost no reason, and nothing will be done about it.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

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imblyings
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by imblyings » #310324

NikNakFlak wrote:This is dumb, ausops posted twice, if he any intention of lifting your ban, he would have done so, or should do so, stop beating around the bush, declare oldman in the right or in the wrong, nobody wants to read paragraphs about your dumb arguments about "exact health stats".
Its not at the level of dispute where a headmin needs to make a judgement

What I want to do is let oldman try to understand how I'm viewing it so hopefully it won't happen again
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by Oldman Robustin » #310330

The answer is basically "this isn't worth wading into so you better be a good boy if you don't want BGO banning you for shitty raisins".

Which is silly because all this thread needed was a "Critting someone for stupid reasons and then immediately getting them healed is not, and never has been, bannable. Only aggravating circumstances would result in a ban. If you choose to crit someone during a conflict, you are responsible for reasonably foreseeable consequences should the crit player ends up dead."

Its also silly because this is a low-stakes ban but has big implications for policy. If I hadn't recently done another policy thread I'd have one up about this just so I can stop this stupid meme of constantly looking over my shoulder for BGO because they apply a completely unique interpretation of our rules (and they treat me as though I'm permanently out of warnings and I should 100% "know better" even though they are literally the only admin to hold certain positions on our policy).


@BGO

1) Yes I get crit often, no it doesnt bother me as long as I'm quickly healed and there's not an emergency I need to deal with, and even if it did, I've clearly explained that no other active admin shares your position

2) Stop equating "beat the clown into crit and then immediately brought them to medbay" with "Robustin thinks the clown was valid". Killing the mime for talking at roundstart is actually debatable but I never advocated that the clown should be killed or that it would be valid to kill him. I simply apply our longstanding policy that crit + healing is not even remotely comparable to flat out murder, any other admin wouldve asked "what impact did Robustin have on the clown's round?" Answer: "He knocked the clown out for about 20 seconds" Resolution: "Sounds like an IC issue, if they continue to attack you then let me know and I'll warn them to stop".
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imblyings
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by imblyings » #310333

>Critting someone for stupid reasons and then immediately getting them healed is not, and never has been, bannable.

No we don't let players use stupid reasons to crit people. The fact that they can be healed up right after is not a mitigating or excusing factor when it comes to critting people for stupid reasons. Critting people should have not stupid reasons behind it. Not wearing shoes falls under the 'stupid reason' category. Don't crit the clown for not wearing shoes. Do not misunderstand my posts- I think you're capable of understanding where I'm coming from and changing how you act if I explain why.

Variance in admin handing of people critting for stupid reasons is another thing but at no point should an admin ever be ok with or tolerate critting for stupid reasons.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by Oldman Robustin » #310730

Then I'll chalk this up to another stupid admin decision that will be lost to time and an we can all laugh about in OOC.

Just like last years "Getting rid of a body after killing them is always valid if the underlying kill was valid" (which was subsequently used to ban me after I had my own ban overturned on these grounds) - or "Killing a friendly wizard is bannable powergaming" the year before that, if a decision is logically indefensible its not going to survive past the headmin who's willing to spout that nonsense.

A crit is a knockout effect and nothing more. KO'ing someone for a stupid reason has been ruled valid hundreds and hundreds of times. Like I said I got the same ruling from another admin mere hours before BGO slapped me with this shit and my situation was more dire, even though I was left low on blood the admin's reaction bordered on incredulous "Look, they healed you, it's been resolved, you really want me to ban them for making you a little low on blood? No"

I can 100% guarantee that if I had succumbed and ahelped about being killed, I'd be here appealing a ban-bait ban instead.

Yet I can still relate to that position more than I can relate to "Crit'ing someone now follows a special snowflake rule that has never been announced until now. Beating someone up for stupid reasons is still valid but if they go critical for even a second, you're banned because who gives a shit about logic". Keep in mind I didn't even do 100 damage here, how much damage is required to even hold someone accountable for crit'ing?

Edit: Fuck it, Ausops said that admin variance on this issue is another problem and this is easily the most "out there" decision I've seen for the last year so lets just make this a policy thread, the bans over and this thread serves no purpose being between 3 people.
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Re: BGOBandit - Robustin: Banned for critting a clown w/no s

Post by lzimann » #310739

The only mistake that happened here was it being a 720 min ban instead of the full day. Regardless, about the appeal it has already been solved and expired, continue the discussion in the policy section if you want.
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