[Feem] Repukan - Redlight Egun Overdrive

[D&B]

Byond account and character name: Repukan - Donatello Versus

Banning admin: Feem

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Head Roles and 1440 Minutes ban

Ban reason and length: Reason: Attached in the picture

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2017-06-21 20:02:01 PM EST

Your side of the story: Round start chatter and arming up for the first few minutes of the round. We receive a NT notification that a strange signal has been received from the Xenobiology section and I call the captain to the brig to have them secured. I rush to Xenobiology to check what the signal may be, and see that a Xeno egg with a larva was spawned. I move in to eliminate it (since xenos are a round ending antagonist and my job is to keep the station safe.)

RD moves and takes one shot from my laser gun, which they follow up by disarming and taking my egun. They move to get clear LoS on me, and I immediately retaliate to stun and neutralize both the RD and the larva. The RD's intent was clear to me the moment they attempted to disarm me from my weapons, picked said weapon up, and moved to shoot. I take the dead larva, the RD corpse, and move both into the brig. I decapitate and debrain the RD and put him in a locker while I inform the captain of what happened and I get PM'd at this moment. Captain seemed ok with what happened, being nonchalant and just shrugging.

Why you think you should be unbanned: My job as Head of Security is to maintain order in the security ranks and keep the station safe to the best of my abilities. At the moment everything happened, I was two tiles away from a now opened xeno egg with a larva in the open, one scientist to my right, disarmed and the RD with my egun and moving to being firing in my position. They intended to shoot me and put the station's safety and my own well being below a xeno larva, and that is neither his job nor obligation as RD.

Furthermore, if they had wanted to keep the xeno egg, they had plenty of time to inform the captain or me in the command channel before I went down there to eliminate it. They chose not to, and instead chose to engage in combat by trying to disarm me, successfully disarming me, and taking my gun and attempt to shoot me. I don't have to wait until I get shot before I can return fire, no one is.

[feem]

Let's just summarize this.

1) Roundstart Xeno Egg. This isn't that relevant, but I'm including it for completeness.
2) RD has xeno egg contained in xenobiology.
3) You got to xenobiology to shoot the egg.
4) The RD gets in your way. He gets hit once.
5) The RD disarms you and takes your gun.
6) You stun him, then laser him to death.
7) You take his body and chop off his head.
8) You put his body in a locker.
9) You remove the brain.
10) You throw the brain in the corner of the "reeducation room."

Bringing up the captain is an interesting tidbit because after the round that captain complained in OOC that you'd executed someone without telling them or asking them.

[D&B]

Sure, because executions don't require Cap's approval anymore. That was a rule during Sticky's period, and during the round and before I got off, they just shrugged, which I assumed meant they understood.

[feem]

So, summary out of the way, it honestly stuns me that you think this is appropriate behavior for a head of security. It isn't your job to murder people on the station. It's your job to keep the peace. Sometimes that means murdering, sure. Let's be honest: often.

But this was very, very close to round start. The RD disarmed you once. You said yourself that you stunned him.

You could then have put cuffs on him. And asked your coworker, also a head, what the hell is going on.

But, no, you murdered him and debrained him and hid the body and the brain.

You've been headbanned and banned before for similar behavior and overreaction. I stand by this ban unless a headmin can determine a better solution.

[D&B]

Furthermore the RD made no effort in informing neither the captain nor I that it was a Xeno egg that they had contained. All the captain seemed to know from what I could see in game was "what signal?!"

RD has no final say in what can be contained or not. Even less so with a potentially round ending antagonist as xenomorphs are.

[D&B]

You keep saying roundstart like it matters.

I don't care if the round has barely started or if we are 2 hours in. If someone takes steps to initiate combat with the intent to kill, you're not expected nor obligated to play nice and let yourself get shot first.

[Qbopper]

If someone takes steps to initiate combat with the intent to kill, you're not expected nor obligated to play nice and let yourself get shot first.

taking someone down who has a gun? literally no one would fault you

killing them? okay we're getting a bit extreme, but sure, you can probably get away with that

hiding the body? this is the point you've gone too far

debraining him? seriously, what are you doing

one of these things is when you're going too far*

you're completely ignoring feem's valid point that hiding the body/debraining was absolutely over the top and unnecessary and I'll be stunned if a headmin removes the ban. when you're in a ban appeal and saying that "[you] decapitate and debrain the RD and put him in a locker while [you] inform the captain of what happened", as a non antag, and you don't see the problem with your appeal, I don't know what to say other than it was deserved

*(hint: it's the one that says you've gone too far)

[imblyings]

If you don't dispute feem's summary of what happens, this was a gross overreaction.

[Qbopper]

If you don't dispute feem's summary of what happens, this was a gross overreaction.

I was initially cautious because there's two sides to every story but repukan outright says this happened in the OP

I take the dead larva, the RD corpse, and move both into the brig. I decapitate and debrain the RD and put him in a locker while I inform the captain of what happened.

so I'll be interested to see if the story changes

[D&B]

Sure

1) Roundstart Xeno Egg. This isn't that relevant, but I'm including it for completeness.

2) RD has xeno egg contained in xenobiology.
Neither me nor the captain were informed by him or other parties it was a xeno egg. We only received a NT report that it was an strange anomaly.
3) You got to xenobiology to shoot the egg.
I got to xenobio to see what the anomaly is and neutralize it if it's dangerous
4) The RD gets in your way. He gets hit once.
RD, another scientist, and I, go into the pen. RD rushes next to the egg and opens it, liberating the larva. I shoot at the larva and RD gets in the way, then screams NO and disarms and picks up my gun, moving up to get a clearer shot at me
5) The RD disarms you and takes your gun.
I move two tiles back to put distance between me and the second scientist, and get a clearer shot at the RD. I proceed to pick up my gun and laser them on the spot for attacking me, as Head of Security, and trying to keep a round ending danger alive
6) You stun him, then laser him to death.
7) You take his body and chop off his head.
8) You put his body in a locker.
9) You remove the brain.
10) You throw the brain in the corner of the "reeducation room."
Afterwards I informed the captain of what had happened and waited to see their reaction and see if they wanted anything else for the now dead RD. They just proceed to shrug, which makes me understand they didn't seem the RD required nor deserved cloning nor borging.

[imblyings]

Killing the RD was within the limit of acceptability, hiding their corpse and debraining them wasn't.

It's all IC for the RD and HoS to fight over xenos in xenobiology but I'd expect something like forced demotions from either side, maybe some fights, to ensure one side wins but certainly not to your extent.

[D&B]

I wanted to get one more word in because this sets a pretty terrible precedent if it stands.

It has been mentioned before, and approved, that during an escalation session one could, if being the person that was not the one that initiated conflict, be free of obligations regarding bringing the person back.

It is standard procedure for security to secure the corpses of traitors or cultists that might have fallen to the baton or laser. In many cases, even non antagonists receive this treatment due to how often their escalation shenanigans give an impression of further shit happening if they're brought back.

As you have said, it was a completely within my grounds to kill the RD. I acted in both self defense and carrying out my duty of neutralizing a station destroying threat. RD or not, they received the response they wanted, and ahelped when they got beat. That is the only way I can see this, due to the circumstances regarding their death. Why then, is it so outlandish to debrain them? They had a variety of choices to deflate the situation, and instead they chose the one that would get them killed the soonest. You don't get to accuse someone of assault if they beat your ass in the curb after you kick them.

The moment the RD decided to attack me, the HoS, in order to carry out and protect a lethal lifeform they were not coming back into the round. However due to code changes which make death in general meaningless with so many ways to come back, why is securing a corpse in a safe manner such an out of the way thing to do? They were secured and later their death was informed to the captain, which I did check the logs, in order to see what their further verdict would be. I was acting following the CoC, and it says so that even if I would be opposed to the captain's orders, I would have to follow them. But they did not order their borging, nor their cloning. At most they shrugged, because they too deemed the response appropiate.

I had a case like this before, and it ended differently. I was a HoP and got enlisted to raid a clock cultist base. Our RD at the time dragged a cogscarab and tried to revive it using a screwdriver. I shot them down after they refused to stop and pushed me, cremated them with the cogscarab and a couple other cultist bodies, and the admin that bwoinked me ruled that it was an appropriate response since they were aiding an antagonist as a non antagonist.

My bottom line is: If the captain had not objected, why was securing the corpse such a big deal? Is it because now making working around code nerfs to death is badly seen? If so, then why is the policy not updated so that players don't get banned for this?

Are we just going to ban people because they can't win the ic conflict they create?

[BeeSting12]

I'd just like to point out one of our rules: Acting like an antagonist means you can be treated like an antagonist. It's pretty damn antagonistic to facilitate the creation of xenos wordlessly and then assault the HoS, possibly with the intent to kill him. Debraining him and all that was possibly overkill, but not out of the question seeing as revenge would be likely, especially with the RD having the access to make the HoS' life very miserable given time, and the possibility that the RD could've been an antagonist attempting to bring a round ending antagonist to the station.

Also, straight from the rules page:
"Rule 4 Precedents"
1. Non-antagonists are allowed to assist antagonists given sufficient IC reasoning but assisting an antagonist doesn't mean you get to act like one . If in doubt, ask an admin if a particular action is okay. Depending on the level of assistance, sufficient IC reasoning could be simply treating everyone who goes into medbay regardless of them being a murderer or not, all the way to being threatened under pain of death by an antagonist to do something."

Technically, what the RD was doing here is against the rules given that disarming the HoS and attempting to shoot him is assisting an antagonist AND acting like one.

edit: Another rule I found relevant to this is something under Security Policy and Precedents on the rules page. Here it is, quoted directly from the rules.
"The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4."
The RD ticked two of the criteria listed on the wiki page- Using a lethal/restricted weapon on them and disrupting the arrest/sentencing of a dangerous criminal, in this case an alien larva. Again, slightly overkill, what Donatello did, but the rules page states that this kind of behavior does make you valid to security.

[croneman12]

Hi there, I'm the RD who was decapitated, debrained and tossed into a locker, Firstly I did not stop him from shooting the egg just so I can do a meme and make it a shitty aliens round, I was going for research levels as a alien brain is level 7 prime research, and him saying that I "Did not make it aware to not kill the egg" I was screaming WHAT ALIEN, DONT KILL IT. over command radio, so in his own ignorance he killed me over something easily avoidable, besides its pretty damn hard to get somebody to start shooting whos already spam clicking like its fallout 13 and they are clicking the "Slap Ass" button when they get started, disarming was the best course of action for my own safety, besides I was wearing a bio hood, the scientist that had entered along with me triggered the alien egg to open, I had all my safety gear on to properly grow and then quickly get rid of the menace. Thank you.

[lumipharon]

>RD studying xeno in xenobio, literally doing his job
>hos comes to validsalad the larva
>shoots the RD
>RD disarms and takes gun
>RD gets murdered, debrained and removed from the rest of the round

Gee, that's some pretty cool escalation.

It's pretty shitty behavior, getting sum valids aside, the RD did nothing but try to stop you from turbomurdering the admin spawn.
Did you bother to talk to your fellow crewmem at all or did you just run there and flop out your throbbing laser gun as fast as you can?
Did the RD actually attack you (disarming and simply taking your gun, not even using it doesn't bloody count)?
Did you put any effort into non lethally ending the conflict?

You are claiming 'self defence' and escalation, when the fact of the matter is you ran into the guys department and murdered him the instant he tried to oppose you in any way. Did you literally do anything to sort this shit out before resorting to murder? Also an admin saying 'you can probably get away with murdering him' does not make it 'completely within your grounds to do so'. It means the admin is saying they probably wouldn't ban you for being that level of shit.

This is some serious no fun allowed validhunting, and is in no way comparable to someone helping a conversion antag (which implies they are either a clockmeme themselves or a fucking moron at best), compared to someone using their department FOR WHAT IT WAS CREATED FOR, then non violently trying to stop you from dropping your load all over it at the first possible opportunity.

Fuck.

Edit: This is the same as murdering a scientist/rd because they are making bombs and they disarm you when you try and take all the valves for destruction, for no reason. I wish this was also a sec ban tbh.

[D&B]

>RD studying xeno in xenobio, literally doing his job
They weren't even in xenobio, nor did they inform the captain, which prompted us to send me to investigate
>hos comes to validsalad the larva
I came to investigate the NT signal, but sure, let's use your buzzwords
>shoots the RD
I tried to shoot the egg that the RD had opened to avoid either need or the other scientist in the pen to get facehugged but he got in the way of the shot
>RD disarms and takes gun
Yup
>RD gets murdered, debrained and removed from the rest of the round
Ditto

It's pretty shitty behavior, getting sum valids aside, the RD did nothing but try to stop you from turbomurdering the admin spawn.
Not admin spawned, apparently 2% chance to spawn each round
Did you bother to talk to your fellow crewmem at all or did you just run there and flop out your throbbing laser gun as fast as you can?
Yes, captain had no idea what it was, nobody in the command channel did, nothing coming from RD either, which prompted us to investigate
Did the RD actually attack you (disarming and simply taking your gun, not even using it doesn't bloody count)?
Yes it does count. You don't get to say "security killed me for no reason" if you get killed before you can shoot say, a taser you just bumped off them
Did you put any effort into non lethally ending the conflict?
No, I was outnumbered and acted on the guidelines of keeping the station safe

You are claiming 'self defence' and escalation, when the fact of the matter is you ran into the guys department and murdered him the instant he tried to oppose you in any way. Did you literally do anything to sort this shit out before resorting to murder? Also an admin saying 'you can probably get away with murdering him' does not make it 'completely within your grounds to do so'. It means the admin is saying they probably wouldn't ban you for being that level of shit.
I didn't murder him for opposing me, that'd be silly. I acted responding to his actions, which were clearly antagonistic and leading to my death wors case scenario. They had plenty of time to inform command or sec that they had intentions of harvesting aliens and they chose not to
This is some serious no fun allowed validhunting, and is in no way comparable to someone helping a conversion antag (which implies they are either a clockmeme themselves or a fucking moron at best), compared to someone using their department FOR WHAT IT WAS CREATED FOR, then non violently trying to stop you from dropping your load all over it at the first possible opportunity)
>Needs people to make more hostiles
>They're irretrievable if they get used for said hostile creation
>Divides the station into two teams
>Not team antag
>????

Also you're not under any obligation to have someone shoot you first after they steal your weapon to respond with force too. They only fell first because they were still trying to line a good line of sight to shoot me and I shot first.

[imblyings]

You're not meant to take admins saying something is within the limit of acceptability to mean you can go beyond that and be fine.

The limit of acceptability is where admins are already having second thoughts and misgivings.