[Bob Dobbington] InsaneHyena - bombing a teammate

[InsaneHyena]

Byond account and character name: InsaneHyena
Banning admin: bobdobbington
Ban type (What are you banned from?): General ban
Ban reason and length:
Maxcapped Medbay as cultist, killing and gibbing at least one cultist. I get that you had a reason but you aren't empowered to spend your teammates' lives to get sec out of Medbay.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): This ban was applied by bobdobbington on 2017-06-25 20:18:23.
Dayban
>inb4 "Appealing dayban"
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story:
Cult. Captain is sacrificed, but we have like three or four people. Our base was just devastated by meteors, our cult master was killed, security is still numerous, but largely, with other loyalists and a large number of iron golems, in medbay. How do I take them out, so we can summon safely? With a bomb. I have one with me right now.
There are no friendlies anywhere in line of sight, so I drop a bomb behind the cryo, run and send the signal. I achieve my goal, but one of the cultists dies - I don't know where he appeared from, but maybe he got by debris or something. I learn it two minutes later, when I get bwoinked. I'm told that I'm responsible for the death of my teammate, and have to take punishment.

I know that I'm appealing a dayban, but it seems particularily unfair to me, so I'll do it.
Okay, yes, I killed a fellow cultist. It sucks, and I would be really happy to avoid it, if I knew he'd be caught in the blast. But the fact is, I did not "spend" any lives. I did not intend to kill him. I did not even know he was there. It was an accident, and accidents happen. Sometimes, you throw a flashbang and kill a lot of your own guys, because they don't have ear protection, and your enemy does. Sometimes you shoot your own ally in a firefight in gangs. Sometimes, you fuck up during ops and kill some of your own with a syndicate bomb - God knows, I was on the receiving side of this a lot. Every time it happened, I whined, complained and called my killer a moron in the ghostchat, but ultimately understood that it was a fuckup, not a murder.
I don't understand how my case is any different.

[kevinz000]

I'd like to note that bombs are a good way to force a shuttle in any mode due to the damage it causes. You said nukeops as an example, it doesn't matter if it's called because nukeops is an immediate shuttle call anyways. However a bomb in s conversion mode other than revs will likely fuck over your team unless really well planned as it'll likely force an immediate shuttle call. You also have to consider that some of your teammates won't have space protection, and in a basebuilding mode you're taking out potential territory.

Tl;Dr your examples are different than a maxcap in conversion mode by a far shot.

[InsaneHyena]

Then I should have mentioned that it was 5 minutes before the shuttle arrival.

[lumipharon]

This sounds pretty reasonably tbh.

In this situation where the cult is severely fucked and the shuttle is incoming, if you can nuke the core of the loyalists out, you could ahve a genuine chance of going loud on escape and converting everything left/summoning.
It's not like they had any real chance of winning if he DIDN'T do this.

[Armhulen]

This sounds pretty reasonably tbh.

In this situation where the cult is severely fucked and the shuttle is incoming, if you can nuke the core of the loyalists out, you could ahve a genuine chance of going loud on escape and converting everything left/summoning.
It's not like they had any real chance of winning if he DIDN'T do this.

This. Bombs are fun and they were fucked anyways. Not every situation should have ooc resolution

[kevinz000]

Then I should have mentioned that it was 5 minutes before the shuttle arrival.

If this is the case I retract my statement/opinion.

[Bob Dobbington]

I don't run out the clock on my ban appeals. Look, I get that your objective was not to grief here. Your intent isn't the problem. It's been policy here as long as I have played that you're responsible for all the consequences, intended and otherwise, of an explosion you cause. That means that when you kill someone you shouldn't have, even with the best of intentions, you eat the dayban because if we don't have those rules what we have instead is mad bombers every round. To argue whether your specific antag maxcap bomb fuckup is to one side of the other of some kind of badness spectrum is to miss the point entirely. Maxcaps have consequences, and when you use them you're responsible for the result.

[Lazengann]

"It's been policy here as long as I have played that you're responsible for all the consequences, intended and otherwise, of an explosion you cause."

I don't disagree but some guy threw an explosive lance while I was fighting an Ash Drake on station, killed me with the explosion and Atlanta Ned said oh well

So apparently it's up to the admin now

[J_Madison]

I was HOS this round.

I do not know how bad of a position cult was in, as me and sec were constantly doubting ourselves.

Your bomb royally confused us, but didn't kill any of us or prevent us from assaulting what stragglers remained.

The headcultist, curator, with all access and all his papers was caught and repeatedly begged for teleportation escape over commons radio. He was executed by aimed laser shot to the head. Which puzzled me if there were cultists alive why didn't they teleport him.

I severely overestimated cult and my perception of the round was far more stressful.

Cult extended the shuttle timer by about 9 minutes. It was clear the shuttle was not to arrive.

From the security side, what you did just plain pissed me off covered me in hubris.

[imblyings]

It is kind of up to the admin.

I've warned/noted instead of banning someone if it was a genuine mistake and they did make a thorough attempt to make sure there were no innocents caught in a bomb explosion. That being said, Bob isn't wrong in his reasoning. It's probably better to think of that line of thought as the default, with individual cases sometimes involving admin discretion. Like speeding and the officer who caught you either giving a warning or a ticket as his job should require.

Note could probably do with a rewrite to reflect that it was a mistake rather than deliberate 'spending' of a teammates life. Some players, not necessarily you, make a lot of 'mistakes' and the notes eventually became a red flag when the 'mistake' happens again.

[Bob Dobbington]

That would make intent the focus of the note, which, as I explained, defeats most of the purpose of the policy in the first place. If the rule about bombing antag teammates is now "it's bannable unless you have a good reason," then I'd like a word with whoever committed the admins to a retarded and unenforceable policy. If I thought InsaneHyena was trying to grief, he'd have gotten a longer ban, not a dayban and the maxcap safety lecture. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

EDIT: On reflection, you're right about the word spending, that implies intent a different way. Will fix that.

[InsaneHyena]

Thank you for editing the note, but I'd like to also point out that your lecture on maxcaps was shocking hypocritical for someone, who routinely filled the entire station with kudzu in team antagonists rounds.

[imblyings]

yeah we're done here