[Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

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captain sawrge
 
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[Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby captain sawrge » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:06 pm #323775

Posting on behalf of RussellTalbott as he is banned by a couple of crybabies that can't handle words on a screen

Byond account and character name: RussellTalbott - Russell Shazbit
Banning admin: Thunder12345
Ban type (What are you banned from?): This is a note appeal.
Ban reason and length:
Image
Time ban was placed (including time zone): Approx 12PM EST, 04/08/2017
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: Russell shot and killed a clown (don't know name or key) because the clown attempted to steal his flightsuit while he had taken it off to heal. The clown presumably ahelped and Thunder12345 warned Russell for this.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
It is not far to punish a player with a warning or otherwise by retaliating when they have what is equivalent to a mech in resource cost and research required stolen from them. The flightsuit requires a large amount of materials and effort in research to produce. The clown was being a dick (rule 1??) in stealing something that valuable and completely deserved what he got.

Thunder's actions only reinforce the mentality that any fight you lose can be extended into an OOC matter. The clown was the guilty one for killbaiting, if anything.

Thankyou.
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby Cobby » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:36 pm #323939

Can he explain the grenade launcher bit
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:41 pm #323942

What is there to explain? Someone tried to grief them by stealing half an hours worth of interdepartmental work and he used the most immediatley available and effective tool he had on hand to stop them.

Can you explain how the server is a better place if you use admin tools to protect griefing?

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby captain sawrge » Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:55 pm #323945

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Can he explain the grenade launcher bit

Flight suits allow you to rocket three screens away in a matter of seconds. It was the quickest and most sure method of incapacitating the clown
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby Thunder11 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:48 pm #323960

He had all access, was the captain's special snowflake second in command, and so had plenty access to better ways of dealing with the situation than grabbing the suit and leaving him to die. My problem isn't so much with shooting him as then not doing anything to properly deal with him. The station wasn't such a bad state that there was any reason to treat it as a field execution.

Also, a flightsuit is in no way
Kor wrote:half an hours worth of interdepartmental work
The research database is, sure, but once mining delivers materials and the machines are upgraded, a flightsuit is about two minutes' worth of printing off the pieces, slapping stock parts in the backpack, putting all the pieces together and you're done.
ImageImage
Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!

That's thinking on your feet, soldier!

Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all

oranges wrote:

Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby danno » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:51 pm #323962

If it's so easy to make them then why is this 3 hour long round one of the very very few where I actually saw one
Flightsuits are items of very high value. I don't think you understand how fast they are.
It's unreasonable to say that he should have somehow foreseen this situation happening and had something ready for it. That's ridiculous, Thunder.
He used the first thing he grabbed because he literally had a 1 second or so of a window to make a decision
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I don't even play ss13 anymore, pretty much due to dannos stupid bullshit

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby Thunder11 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:01 pm #323964

Thunder11 wrote:then not doing anything to properly deal with him
AKA going back for him to clone/defib and throw in the brig or something.

And you don't see them often because it takes significant effort to get the tech levels to unlock them. Once they're there it doesn't take that much effort to build an individual suit.
ImageImage
Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!

That's thinking on your feet, soldier!

Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all

oranges wrote:

Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby captain sawrge » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:11 pm #323967

Thunder11 wrote:
Thunder11 wrote:then not doing anything to properly deal with him
AKA going back for him to clone/defib and throw in the brig or something.

And you don't see them often because it takes significant effort to get the tech levels to unlock them. Once they're there it doesn't take that much effort to build an individual suit.

It is a rare, hard to obtain item in a broad sense. You are playing semantics here.

The guy that was enough of an asshole to steal the suit deserves to get killed for it, did not deserve to be healed, and did not deserve admin intervention in the matter.
If he was willing to adminhelp losing a fight he I would expect he is also not the type to de-escalate or lose gracefully in general.
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby John_Oxford » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:12 pm #323968

Thunder11 wrote:
Thunder11 wrote:then not doing anything to properly deal with him
AKA going back for him to clone/defib and throw in the brig or something.

And you don't see them often because it takes significant effort to get the tech levels to unlock them. Once they're there it doesn't take that much effort to build an individual suit.



So your arguing what kind of large amount of effort it takes to make a flight suit?

Really?

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:15 pm #323969

Why is it a civillian players responsibility to coddle someone who is seeking to ruin their enjoyment and ensure they get to keep playing and harassing them?

Why is the burden on the victim?

>a flightsuit isnt much work if you arbitrarily discount the work that goes into it

Good argument

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby Thunder11 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:20 pm #323971

Kor wrote:>a flightsuit isnt much work if you arbitrarily discount the work that goes into it
One time work to unlock flightsuits is not the same as repeatable work to just go get a new one.
ImageImage
Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!

That's thinking on your feet, soldier!

Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all

oranges wrote:

Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.

Can be found on singulo: !!pQe.6/5m0Y
Ruiner of Fun [Badmin], leave feedback at: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5578

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:29 pm #323972

It still costs more than a mech. It still takes more time and resources than it does to undo a death which we police all the time.

And you keep ignoring the questions of intent and why you think that between

Player A, stealing expensive things from player B unprovoked then crying in adminhelp when stopped

and

Player B, playing the game peacefully until they defend themselves froma rulebreaking agressor


Player A is the playstyle you condone and protect

This is why we shouldn't let brits become admins they think self defense is illegal and immoral

PostThis post was deleted by lzimann on Sat Aug 05, 2017 7:40 pm.
Reason: Not relevant

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby danno » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:53 pm #323982

Yeah Russell was just responding to a situation forced upon him by another player who was seeking to commit a crime
This is such a weird argument
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby feem » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:54 pm #323983

I've seen people not get bwoinked for killing people over much less. I've ahelped about people killing me as non-antag for much less and not gotten anywhere with it.

I agree that the grenade launcher may have been a bit much, but why are we arguing whether or not the clown should have been robusted?

All that having been said, we're not talking about a ban, it's a note about behavior. I completely support the note staying if it's modified to ask the player not to make an immediate escalation to execution using a weapon that could early cause collateral damage, but I see nothing wrong with the fact that the player reacted, just the degree to which they reacted.

Further and again, this is a note, not a ban. Instead of aiming firmly at DINDU NUFFIN vs. YESUDID let's make the note indicate the specific misstep: blowing someone up when you could have just shot or otherwise robusted them. Yes, that's what the note already says, but the way it's currently worded gives rise to an argument which isn't actually about the problem.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:57 pm #323985

Notes are often treated as the equivalent of bans when determining future ban lengths. If I could choose between a short ban without a note or getting a warning note I'd go for the short ban every time.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby danno » Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:59 pm #323986

When all you have is a grenade launcher and what they have is a supersuit that can literally instantly fly 2 or 3 screens away from you, "otherwise robusting" them isn't really an option because they'll just disappear.

In any other situation I might agree with you, but the flightsuit makes this one unique.
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby danno » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:01 pm #323987

also perhaps we should try to make it seem like it's not okay for people to initiate an engagement with another player, lose, and then make it an OOC problem to retaliate at them
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby feem » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:21 pm #323990

My only real problems with the scenario described are:

1) grenades can easily cause collateral damage
2) if the body was gibbed without leaving a brain then that's way more severe than just killing them, but I don't know if that happened or not
3) the clown was pretty shit to ahelp just because they got dunked for trying to steal an item, so if I'd been there and felt the issue deserved a note for the killer, you're right that I probably would have noted the complainant too for instigating the encounter

That having been said, personally, if I see a note like this I'll take it into account when seeing the behavior again and determining if it's a system of behavior, but if I see a prior ban for the behavior I'm going to be a lot harsher about it because I'm going to assume they didn't care that they were already punished for it the first time (assuming identical circumstances and nothing to mitigate them).

What I'm defending here is placing notes about behavior when that behavior may be relevant in the future. If I'd seen this and no one else got hurt I probably wouldn't have noted anyone, but if there's an issue here, let's focus on that specific issue on the text of the note instead of making it seem like it's irrational to dunk someone that deserved to get dunked.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:31 pm #323993

I just don't think a player who is forced into a dumb situation through no fault of their own and defends themselves from grief should then be viewed through a negative lens and added suspicion the next time someone griefs and defends themselves two hundred rounds later.

It's possible you use notes differently than I'm imagining but some admins treat notes pretty harshly (like this guy getting a double ban length because he was warned three years and one thousand connections ago for similar behavior)

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Erring on the side of placing notes isn't really fair as long as some portion of the admin team treats them as something so damning.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:37 pm #323996

Also again I think intent is more important than exactly following a hidden escalation formula and one player intended to peacefully so their job and another player intended to make them upset and we shouldnt promote the latter playstyle. All the rest is extra detail.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby feem » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:38 pm #323997

Bans create notes. The note you just posted is the result of a ban.

Using a note from three years ago is a bit much in my opinion, but I have no control over other admins.

If I see something I think violates the rules or pushes close to violating the rules, I'm going to note it.

If another admin then uses that "incorrectly" I expect that to be handled through a complaint or appeal. It doesn't change the fact that the behavior took place.

I place notes on people who set off bombs because they're being attacked, too, because of the risk that collateral damage presents. Grenades are less severe than that, but the principle is the same and what I'm saying is that if the administrator in question felt that it was relevant that they used that weapon instead of another then we should adjust the note to make it clear that that's the issue.

If you want to remove the note entirely then I feel like you need to definitively demonstrate that it didn't violate the rules to fire a collateral damage-causing weapon at someone stealing an object the player in question had set down.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby danno » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:40 pm #323998

At the end of the day, I would have done probably exactly the same as Russell did in this situation

and feem, they were completely alone in arrivals with only the clown so I don't think "collateral" factors in here
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby feem » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:45 pm #323999

If there was no one else around and arrivals wasn't really damaged then I don't see many problems here with the player's behavior. If the clown picked the suit up off the ground then the player was pretty stupid for setting it down and maybe shouldn't gib the clown if there's another option. If there's not, well, okay, but obviously thunder feels there was.

If the clown disarmed the player then obviously they should be dunked.

I wasn't there, and there are still unexplained parts of this.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:47 pm #324000

If you want to remove the note entirely then I feel like you need to definitively demonstrate that it didn't violate the rules to fire a collateral damage-causing weapon at someone stealing an object the player in question had set down.


I think the burden should be on an admin to prove maliciousness or completley gross negligence and to furthermore prove their actions are improving the server by protecting the clown.

Guilty until proven innocent is backwards.

Also, again, extra details, but the 40mm is the equivalent of a welding tank if not weaker, scorched floor tiles on SS13 should not warrant admin involvement.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:52 pm #324001

This microanalysis of what someone did in the spur of the moment in a videogame to protect themselves from a rulebreaker is just silly

The rulebreaker was compensated by admins and the victim was put on notice to be watched for rulebreaking

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby captain sawrge » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:54 pm #324002

feem wrote:If there was no one else around and arrivals wasn't really damaged then I don't see many problems here with the player's behavior. If the clown picked the suit up off the ground then the player was pretty stupid for setting it down and maybe shouldn't gib the clown if there's another option. If there's not, well, okay, but obviously thunder feels there was.

If the clown disarmed the player then obviously they should be dunked.

I wasn't there, and there are still unexplained parts of this.

He took it off to bandage a wound and dropped it. He was almost dead from bloodloss.
Last edited by captain sawrge on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby feem » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:56 pm #324004

Holding a player responsible for their own actions isn't protecting the clown. If it was me and I felt that the player required a note, I would definitely noted the clown too.

I suppose it was my mistake to come in and defend procedure, but what I'm trying to do is address the very personal-sounding "admins doing their job is bad" arguments here.

Most of what I've said has had the disclaimer of "if this then that" and "if it was me," and I'm not trying to say that the admin in question is infallible. But the defining assumption of several participants in this conversation has been to assume that there were no circumstances in which this note should ever have been placed, and that's simply not true. So while you're right that the admin in question should demonstrate that those circumstances were present, what I'm trying to say is that if you want to definitively and objectively remove it with no question then you're going to have to demonstrate that there was a mistake.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby Lazengann » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:58 pm #324005

Who the fuck wouldn't blow the clown up for this

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby feem » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:00 pm #324006

I believe I've stated repeatedly that the clown deserved to die.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby pubby » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:01 pm #324007

Kor wrote:Guilty until proven innocent is backwards.

You literally just called the clown a griefer without hearing his side of the story.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:02 pm #324008

By reviving the clown and punishing the player who was being robbed they are absolutely protecting them in this instance, and as a long term trend the clown and other line toeing players like him are being protected by a very clear warning not to respond too harshly to attacks from them.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:03 pm #324011

pubby wrote:
Kor wrote:Guilty until proven innocent is backwards.

You literally just called the clown a griefer without hearing his side of the story.


I have read his side of the story though. He took a flightsuit and put it on and then adminhelped when he got blown up

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby feem » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:08 pm #324015

I'd missed that the clown was revived until I just re-read the thread because nobody referenced it except sarge, offhandedly, by saying the clown "did not deserve to be healed."

The only other possible reference that I see to this is Kor's regarding admin tools, but when I first read that I must have misunderstood it to mean the notes panel as being revived wasn't actually mentioned in the thread.

Did y'all prepare this appeal together or something? There's a lot that you seem to know that isn't in the thread or notes.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:13 pm #324016

feem wrote:There's a lot that you seem to know that isn't in the thread or notes.


I read the logs this morning because I like arguing over things that dont matter, danno was online when it happened, and sawrge/russel are basically the same person

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby feem » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:15 pm #324017

Okay. I don't think the clown should have been healed for that and now understand why you've been fighting this so loudly.

That having been said, for everyone's sake, y'all really should have led with that.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby danno » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:21 pm #324018

I actually saw the kill happen in passing as I was flying around the map idly
I passed it over because from what I could see, it looked like a very reasonable occurrence

It's fair to say that maybe things should have been made clearer earlier in the thread.
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby sirnat » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:29 pm #324019

danno wrote:also perhaps we should try to make it seem like it's not okay for people to initiate an engagement with another player, lose, and then make it an OOC problem to retaliate at them


We do, its called ban baiting and I used to do it when I was a shitter, and Kor nearly perma'd me for it and it changed me.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby Thunder11 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:33 pm #324020

The clown getting revived wasn't me, guessing someone found the corpse later
ImageImage
Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!

That's thinking on your feet, soldier!

Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all

oranges wrote:

Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:40 pm #324023

My mistake then. I saw him being assigned to a new mob followed by you saying "resolved." Must have been a coincidence.

I still think the note is in error though.

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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby Thunder11 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:47 pm #324028

At this point I think we'd just going to have to wait for a headmin. Also, do note that I said earlier my main problem is not with the immediate shooting, but more with leaving him to die afterwards. It doesn't seem like it should be that hard to drag him to medbay, get him healed and throw him in the brig for his crimes.
ImageImage
Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!

That's thinking on your feet, soldier!

Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all

oranges wrote:

Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.

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PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:57 am.
Reason: opinion

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captain sawrge
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:13 pm
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby captain sawrge » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:50 pm #324031

Thunder11 wrote:At this point I think we'd just going to have to wait for a headmin. Also, do note that I said earlier my main problem is not with the immediate shooting, but more with leaving him to die afterwards. It doesn't seem like it should be that hard to drag him to medbay, get him healed and throw him in the brig for his crimes.

What is the difference between leaving his body alone in a fairly public and trafficked spot or going through the trouble of cloning him just to detain and brig him again? If anything leaving the corpse at least gives him the chance someone else clones him and he doenst spend the rest of the round in the brig.

I wouldn't have cloned him. Fuck anyone that pulls this shit, but anyone that does this and then ahelps definitely wouldn't be a graceful loser given a second chance via cloning/healing.
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PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:57 am.
Reason: shitpost

PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:57 am.
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D&B
 
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby D&B » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:54 pm #324036

Why is the burden of punishment being put into someone who's not sec?

Why should you, if in the process of being griffed, not be able to defend yourself unless you can procure a basically highly secured form of non lethal restraining method?

PostThis post was deleted by NikNakFlak on Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:57 am.
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onleavedontatme
 
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:58 pm #324039

D&B wrote:unless you can procure a basically highly secured form of non lethal restraining method?


This is probably the most ironic part. The same people who cried out for coders to remove civilian stuns to cut down on "validhunting" are now upset that players are using lethals instead.

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Cobby
 
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby Cobby » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:15 pm #324045

Kor wrote:What is there to explain? Someone tried to grief them by stealing half an hours worth of interdepartmental work and he used the most immediatley available and effective tool he had on hand to stop them.

Can you explain how the server is a better place if you use admin tools to protect griefing?


Well usually if you tear a hole in the station for a single individual as nonantag then it's kinda poor form which thunder may have been trying to articulate though the note. perhaps the note could be worded a bit differently to better reflect thunder's gripe if that was the case.

I apologize if my quote came off as snarky or something, your post is coming off as a snarky remark because I dared to try to understand the problem instead of just hopping on the bandwagon.

captain sawrge wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Can he explain the grenade launcher bit

Flight suits allow you to rocket three screens away in a matter of seconds. It was the quickest and most sure method of incapacitating the clown


I have never used it so I don't know how big the explosion is if it's much of one at all, but thanks.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

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bandit
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Re: [Thunder1345] RussellTalbott - Note Appeal

Postby bandit » Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:16 pm #324047

Kor wrote:I just don't think a player who is forced into a dumb situation through no fault of their own and defends themselves from grief should then be viewed through a negative lens and added suspicion the next time someone griefs and defends themselves two hundred rounds later.

It's possible you use notes differently than I'm imagining but some admins treat notes pretty harshly (like this guy getting a double ban length because he was warned three years and one thousand connections ago for similar behavior)

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Erring on the side of placing notes isn't really fair as long as some portion of the admin team treats them as something so damning.


This is both irrelevant (these are the notes of arnes111, not the OP) and a totally different situation. If you get banned for IC in OOC in 2013 then you sure as hell have had ample time to learn not to do it. There is no IC context to take into account, no escalation or retaliation or "forced into a dumb situation" or "grief." You learn not to do it, and then you don't do it. If you still do it, then your 15-minute ban doubles in what is generally accepted precedent for IC in OOC bans. Using IC in OOC as evidence of anything to do with arguably IC situations like this is completely on-its-face asinine and the only explanation I can think of for why it is even posted here is that I placed the ban.

tl;dr: I know you think I'm a shitty admin and will take any opportunity to single me out and say so, but please do not drag it into unrelated threads.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

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