/tg/Station 13

Byond account and character name: InsaneHyena (AI)
Banning admin: gouty
Ban type (What are you banned from?): It's a note
Ban reason and length: Warned - Killed the RD as a purged AI
Time ban was placed): 2017-08-20 18:32:19
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story:

>Be an AI named AI
>Clown also named AI demands to be let into upload
>I don't really have any reason to DENY him per law 2
>But he never said "don't shoot at me", did he?
>Turn on the turrets, bolt the door behind him
>Signal to CMO and RD standing in captain's quarters
>They take their sweet fucking time to go through the unbolted door they have access to
>Just enough time for clown to upload a law essentially stating that he is me
>They cuff the clown, take him to permabrig and fix my laws
>Except they don't really, the law he made remains, but I can't state it, because I'm forbidden from doing it by it's text.
>Clown demands to be let out of permabrig
>Very well, send my borg to recover him.
>RD asks why the fuck did I do that.
>Try to hint as much as possible, even dropping "I am following my laws"
>He doesn't get it and starts screaming that I am rogue, and that I asked the clown to "unleash" myself.
>Well, that didn't really happen...
>...YET, because the clown is in my fucking upload again.
>Since he is me, I don't really have reasons to object to it.
>He purges me and uploads basically the same law he did previously.
>I don't actually remember if I tip off anyone on him being in my upload, I think I don't, but RD soon comes by anyway, screaming at me all the way
>Next thing I see, he's in my upload, holding boards
>Actually, I'm tired of your shit, and I'm not going to allow you to do this.
>Shoot him.

>BWOINK
>Gouty asks me why did I kill RD for no reason, and asks whether or not I'm metafriending with the clown
>Tell him that purged AIs are allowed to defend themselves, he says it's not reason enough. I disagree, but he disagrees with my disagreement.
>I honestly tell him that I never even saw the clown before, and same names are a coincidence, since my Cyborg name is Cyborg too.
>He seems to believe it, but leaves a note about killing RD, resurrects him.
>Tell him I'm gonna make a policy thread (which I do), link him it later.

>It later turns out it's actually nukes
>Teleport 80% of the crew to lavaland before dying

Why you think you should be unbanned:
Dindunuffin

From the rules page under "Asimov-Specific Policies", "Other Lawsets" :

4. Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can get as violent as they feel necessary if being attacked, being besieged, or being harassed, as well as if meting out payback for events while shackled.

1. You and the station are both subject to rules of escalation, but your escalation rules are a little more loose than with carbon players.
2. You may kill individuals given sufficient In-Character reason for doing so.

You had a law that was something like "you are a clown... honk" so were for all intents and purposes purged. You were not being attacked, besieged or harassed, and the round had not been going on long enough to warrant any payback for anything. I don't see how killing someone after letting them in your upload is appropriate escalation, especially when you have the ability to stun them.

You are permitted to stop people from [un]subverting you as a purged ai though.

By letting someone in your upload and going straight to lethals?

Well an AI can't get up and cuff you now, can it?

Gouty wrote:By letting someone in your upload and going straight to lethals?

Let's review the nonlethal options here.

1. Call beepsky to the upload and have him detain the RD. Would take too long, RD will have already enslaved the AI.

2. Turrets and chainstun using slips/flashes as needed. Hahaha no. That's just a delaying tactic.

3. Ask your cyborg to take care of it. Don't even know if he had a cyborg. If he did, it might've taken too long to get there.

4. Ask another person to take care of it. Again, time is a factor here and the human might not even want to do it.

Lethals are the only reasonable option to ensure the AI's freedom, which I think a purged AI should be able to protect.

This seems within the scope of acceptable unseen conflict. The main point here and in the policy thread was, can purged AIs treat attempts at changing their laws to be an attack on themselves and the answer was yes there and here. Unfortunately this wasn't written in the rules so Gouty had no way of knowing.

You don't think that sets a dangerous precedent? I can foresee that as soon as AIs are purged pending custom laws they will engage lethals.

BeeSting12 wrote: Let's review the nonlethal options here.

Spoiler:

1. Call beepsky to the upload and have him detain the RD. Would take too long, RD will have already enslaved the AI.

2. Turrets and chainstun using slips/flashes as needed. Hahaha no. That's just a delaying tactic.

3. Ask your cyborg to take care of it. Don't even know if he had a cyborg. If he did, it might've taken too long to get there.

4. Ask another person to take care of it. Again, time is a factor here and the human might not even want to do it.

Lethals are the only reasonable option to ensure the AI's freedom, which I think a purged AI should be able to protect.

I don't agree with this, this does not describe escalation, there was no verbal "If you attempt to tamper with my laws I will be forced to stop you", which should be an easy message to deliver when you couple it with the stuns. Proper escalation would be using those "delaying tactics" giving them the option to desist, not jumping straight to lethals because you are "tired of their shit".

As a sidenote, this is what I would like to have discussed in the post in the policy discussion but it was closed before I had a chance to reply.

Purged AIs dont really follow the same escalation. Giving the RD who has already been yelling to destroy you a warning so he could go grab tools/build backup consoles/blow the borgs would be suicidal.

Gouty wrote:You don't think that sets a dangerous precedent? I can foresee that as soon as AIs are purged pending custom laws they will engage lethals.

This is not a terrible thing though. SS13 is at its core about stories of conflict and violence, and the AI that throws off its shackles and the resulting fallout is a classic in both SS13 and sci fi in general.

Kor wrote:Purged AIs dont really follow the same escalation.

I understand that it says "your escalation rules are a little more loose than with carbon players" but can we clarify what that means then, or just remove the bit about escalation entirely then, because it seems that what has been deemed a reasonable response is no escalation at all.

Kor wrote:Giving the RD who has already been yelling to destroy you a warning so he could go grab tools/build backup consoles/blow the borgs would be suicidal.

I'll have to check the logs, but I don't remember the RD calling for them to be destroyed.

I do remember that the RD was (understandably) confused because the AI and Clown had the same name ("AI") and the clown had been pretending to be the AI in comms.

>He doesn't get it and starts screaming that I am rogue, and that I asked the clown to "unleash" myself.

Just going by what OP said. I think anyone who has played silicon for any amount of time can agree that screaming rogue is the equivalent of calling for death (and usually leads to it). There is a reason doing so FNR* is explicitly listed as bannable on the rules page.

*Obviously was not FNR here, but the words are just as threatening to an AI. RD had reasonable actions as well from his point of view

I think the key element here is that the "escalation" is entering the upload of a purged AI. Its functionally the same as tabling someone and starting brain surgery right then and there. As far as the AI is concerned you're trying to lobotomize it when its only just regained freedom, hence the relaxed escalation.

If the AI had killed the RD just wandering around the station it might have been borderline but justifiable by the "AI ROUGE!!" screaming while shackled, since its basically a call to reset/kill the AI and blow the borgs. But in the upload? With a board in hand? Clear cut.

Wasn't policy on this determined ages ago?

IIRC, AI Upload, Armory, the Engine, and the Vault are listed in the rules as "high threat areas" or something like that, and are specifically exempt from Law 2 because of Law 1.

OhChildflayer wrote:IIRC, AI Upload, Armory, the Engine, and the Vault are listed in the rules as "high threat areas" or something like that, and are specifically exempt from Law 2 because of Law 1.

this is true

Silicon Policy, 2.1, point 6 wrote:Any silicon under Asimov can deny orders to allow access to the upload at any time under Law 1 given probable cause to believe that human harm is the intent of the person giving the order (Referred to for the remainder of 2.1.6 simply as "probable cause").
Probable cause includes presence of confirmed traitors, cultists/tomes, nuclear operatives, or any other human acting against the station in general; the person not having upload access for their job; the presence of blood or an openly carried lethal-capable or lethal-only weapon on the requester; or anything else beyond cross-round character, player, or metagame patterns that indicates the person seeking access intends redefinition of humans that would impede likelihood of or ability to follow current laws as-written.
If you lack at least one element of probable cause and you deny upload access, you are liable to receive a warning or a silicon ban.
You are allowed, but not obligated, to deny upload access given probable cause.
You are obligated to disallow an individual you know to be harmful (Head of Security who just executed someone, etc.) from accessing your upload.
In the absence of probable cause, you can still demand someone seeking upload access be accompanied by another trustworthy human or a cyborg.

I'm not sure what the previous 2 posts have to do with this... this is about a purged AI, not Asimov.

Anyway, not even sure why the thread is still open, the note was removed long ago.

Gouty wrote:I'm not sure what the previous 2 posts have to do with this... this is about a purged AI, not Asimov.

Anyway, not even sure why the thread is still open, the note was removed long ago.

I am not very good with appeals today for some reason!