akesson - ausops - rule 0

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:42 am #338447

New headmins new appeal.

Byond account and character name: akesson - random
Banning admin: ausops
Ban type (What are you banned from?): rule0 all
Ban reason and length: detriment to server perm
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 30/07
Your side of the story:
Successfully appealed the discord meta ban, was promptly rule 0 banned for appealing the discord meta ban and other reasons.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
Hey whatever you feel like I've done to be a detriment, I'm sorry.

I just don't feel like I'm a detriment to the server, and I've contributed in many ways here.

I've been in contact and helped with other SS13 hosts and servers and am on good standing with them since then.
FTL13 - good standing with headmin, helped out on admin things and talked to them, regularly talk to the headmin Floyd/Qustinnus.
Hippie - good standing with host JamieH, was asked to apply for staff and help out on things there, on good standing with few of the admins.
Yog - recall I briefed their headcouncil on private matters.

No further comment. Ask questions if you need to.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:19 am #338458

Regarding the irc PMs thing I mention: https://i.imgur.com/Qqq1oxf.png
I later asked Hippie admins about it and they say he has 4 connections there, none of them have heard of him, and he's never applied to be admin. I have no reason to believe his statements there and as far as I know he simply wanted to intimidate or level with me or something.

Anyways:
At least two out of three headmins agree: The ban sticks.
If you intend to appeal again I'd follow what most permabanned people do and wait at least 6 months to a year.

It's been 1 month, not 6 or 12.

What's above that is even more odd so I hope you could explain that.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:23 am #338459

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
Regarding the irc PMs thing I mention: https://i.imgur.com/Qqq1oxf.png
I later asked Hippie admins about it and they say he has 4 connections there, none of them have heard of him, and he's never applied to be admin. I have no reason to believe his statements there and as far as I know he simply wanted to intimidate or level with me or something.

Anyways:
At least two out of three headmins agree: The ban sticks.
If you intend to appeal again I'd follow what most permabanned people do and wait at least 6 months to a year.
It's been 1 month, not 6 or 12.

What's above that is even more odd so I hope you could explain that.

New headmins new appeal.

https://file.house/XZ1t.txt - transcript from JamieH.

It was a mistake to explain to the previous headmins why I was not a detriment to the server.

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:37 am #338473

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:25 am #338495

Didn't Ausops get reelected anyway? Doesn't that still mean it's up to him? On top of that

Hey whatever you feel like I've done to be a detriment, I'm sorry.

This doesn't even sounds remotely like an apology. It sounds more like "yeah you guys think I've been toxic but you're wrong" which is not exactly the best way to appeal a ban

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:34 am #338496

Jacough wrote:Didn't Ausops get reelected anyway? Doesn't that still mean it's up to him? On top of that

Rule 0 bans appeals involve headmins and sometimes host.
Rule 0 headmin ban appeals require all parties present.

Requires a 2 majority vote to ban, with host vote worth 1.1 meaning if it's Host and Headmin vs 2 headmins, Host and headmin vote wins.
Edit: footnote, abstain votes default to host vote side. This occurred during my Judicator rule 0 ban if I recall.

Requires a 3 vote majority to prevent host vote (unless host order is executed).

Jacough wrote: This doesn't even sounds remotely like an apology. It sounds more like "yeah you guys think I've been toxic but you're wrong" which is not exactly the best way to appeal a ban

I don't exactly know what I did wrong that was detrimental to the commuity that is rule 0 worthy.

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:41 am #338499

5. A permaban may only be appealed once per year unless stated otherwise by the banning admin or a headmin. Subsequent appeals will be automatically rejected and deleted, and may result in a forum ban if repeated.

As far as I can tell, the only number provided to you by any member of the admin team, let alone either the banning admin or a headmin, is 6-12 months. Have you received any notification that you could appeal this within a shorter window?

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:43 am #338500

feem wrote:
5. A permaban may only be appealed once per year unless stated otherwise by the banning admin or a headmin. Subsequent appeals will be automatically rejected and deleted, and may result in a forum ban if repeated.
As far as I can tell, the only number provided to you by any member of the admin team, let alone either the banning admin or a headmin, is 6-12 months. Have you received any notification that you could appeal this within a shorter window?

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

Can't find it.

PKP's reply was a suggestion from what I'm seeing.

Yes I've been given approval to appeal this after the 15th.

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:45 am #338501

They're in the post marked 'READ BEFORE POSTING' in this forum.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44

I guess you didn't read it before posting, despite copying the template from there?

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:46 am #338502

feem wrote:They're in the post marked 'READ BEFORE POSTING' in this forum.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44

I guess you didn't read it before posting, despite copying the template from there?

Was given clearance to appeal after the 15th. That rule wouldn't apply here anyway.

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:51 am #338503

By whom? Where?

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:51 am #338504

feem wrote:By whom? Where?

Current Headmin. IRC PMs.

Docprofsmith · Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:38 am

Haven't you been explicitly told not to talk about ban related things where they aren't logged?

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:12 am #338527

imbylings wrote:Jmad I've told you to fuck right off about discussing bans over mediums that aren't logged and you did it again. Thin fucking line you're on.

Source

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:28 am #338538

My private matters are private.

My IRC PMs are IP logged.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:38 pm #338557

Post the approval please or get said headmin to vouch for you else I'm locking this.

onleavedontatme · Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:43 pm

I told him he could appeal this term, but to wait till halfway or so to do it.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:48 pm #338560

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:54 pm #338561

lol, did jmad just tacitly admit he asked Kor for permission and when Kor didn't give him immediate permission, he decided to go to another headmin without either of them knowing to try and get a second opinion.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:58 pm #338562

No. I talked with two of the current headmins and obtain their opinion on the matter.

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:22 pm #338567

Shopping admins is a really, really bad look. I don't think this appeal is going to have the outcome you hope for.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:30 pm #338568

Images aren't photoshopped.

What's wrong with talking to admins in advance and evaluating your chances before applying?

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:33 pm #338569

Shopping, as in, going from one admin to the other.

onleavedontatme · Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:37 pm

Ausops will almost certainly say later if not never, and I already said later, so yeah I am not sure why this thread is here now.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:38 pm #338571

feem wrote:Shopping, as in, going from one admin to the other.

Is that an opinion or a fact, feem?

My first interaction between Armhulen and I isn't a positive; I left a bad impression and disputed a clear cut ban that I deserved.

Is there beyond reasonable doubt you think I jumped to Armhulenn from Kor because I wasn't satisfied with the result?

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:40 pm #338572

Okay, first of all, regardless of what result you get, shopping admins literally just means going from admin to admin to see which one is most beneficial to your cause, regardless of what any individual one says. Hence, shopping, e.g., going from store to store or website to website to find a price you're willing to pay.

Second of all, you haven't described in this thread a suitable _change_ which has occurred in your behavior between when you were banned and now. You're literally just filing this appeal after waiting out your time, and you took the lowest amount of time specified (wait a couple days after the 15th).

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:42 pm #338573

To be more precise, in case you really don't get it (though, your behavior makes me suspect you do):

From what you've said and Kor has said, as well as the attached logs, it looks like you tried to get permission to appeal from Kor, he didn't give you the permission you wanted (immediate appeal vs appeal in a couple of months or so) and so you went and spoke to Armhullen, without letting him know that you had already spoken to Kor, and tried (and succeeded) to get your permission to appeal there.

The fact that you were then taciturn about who gave you permission to appeal, claiming that

My private matters are private.

makes it look like you were aware of the optics on that and tried to hide it, until Kor clarified what he thought the situation was, at which point you suddenly didn't care about your private matters remaining private anymore.

And all of that compounded with the fact that then-and-now headmin ausops asked you to stop talking about ban stuff in secret unlogged chats months ago just makes you look very deceitful.

It might not have happened that way, but based on the information currently available...

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:45 pm #338577

feem wrote:Okay, first of all, regardless of what result you get, shopping admins literally just means going from admin to admin to see which one is most beneficial to your cause, regardless of what any individual one says. Hence, shopping, e.g., going from store to store or website to website to find a price you're willing to pay.

Second of all, you haven't described in this thread a suitable _change_ which has occurred in your behavior between when you were banned and now. You're literally just filing this appeal after waiting out your time, and you took the lowest amount of time specified (wait a couple days after the 15th).

Pure coincidence. This appeal was made after Sligneris stated he would unban me from his Discord IF my ban was appealed. This conversation happened yesterday. I planned on waiting longer.

The date I appealed has nothing to do with minimal amount of time specified.

I've only talked to the only two other Headmins other than Ausops to gauge their opinion to see if it's worth my time appealing.

I've posted references who may testify that I contribute and assist when possible, and I have contributed to tgstation extensively during my time here even if it isn't seen code wise or content wise.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:48 pm #338580

Arianya wrote:To be more precise, in case you really don't get it (though, your behavior makes me suspect you do):

From what you've said and Kor has said, as well as the attached logs, it looks like you tried to get permission to appeal from Kor, he didn't give you the permission you wanted (immediate appeal vs appeal in a couple of months or so) and so you went and spoke to Armhullen, without letting him know that you had already spoken to Kor, and tried (and succeeded) to get your permission to appeal there.

The fact that you were then taciturn about who gave you permission to appeal, claiming that
My private matters are private.
makes it look like you were aware of the optics on that and tried to hide it, until Kor clarified what he thought the situation was, at which point you suddenly didn't care about your private matters remaining private anymore.

And all of that compounded with the fact that then-and-now headmin ausops asked you to stop talking about ban stuff in secret unlogged chats months ago just makes you look very deceitful.

It might not have happened that way, but based on the information currently available...

My conversation with Armhulen occured before the conversation with KorPhaeron. I had already been given clearance to appeal after the 15th before I talked to Kor.

My private matters are private. I'm not here to entertain or make public of my own matters.

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:59 pm #338587

Those are not shopped, I was just giving suggestions for a good appeal.

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:05 pm #338588

But maybe the "right-as-new-term-starts-appeal" suggestion wasn't an amazing one, yeah. Sorry.

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:08 pm #338590

I never claimed anything was photoshopped, I'm sorry it was misinterpreted that way.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:29 pm #338594

Evaluating what I've done is complicated.

I am sorry for being generally defiant to your rulings and witholding information.

This isn't out of malice. As it's been stated, on tg you are allowed to appeal and complain about a ban that lasts an attosecond if you feel it was improperly placed.

And whilst I indeed push for extremes and precedents on rulings and further my own anti-cat-meta agenda. Who doesn't.

And for that, I'm sorry for trying to make the game play in my way using IC rules. Had I been an admin, things might be different.

Armhulen wrote:But maybe the "right-as-new-term-starts-appeal" suggestion wasn't an amazing one, yeah. Sorry.

Perhaps. But should I wait a year to play SS13, I would be playing SS13 under BDUs.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:32 pm #338596

<J_Madison> and feem I'm also doing it based on the fact atleast one of the headmins that confirmed the bans was banned and was shown to be purposely sabotaging the server.
<feem> Literally not relevant.
<J_Madison> Joan did things in bad faith and I'm looking to appeal a ban that was enforced by a traitor and saboteur.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:38 pm #338600

* feem sets ban on *!*J_Madi@F997C03D:EC0EAFBD:6E0218AD:*
* You have been kicked from #supportbus by feem (you are not an admin, take this to the forums)

Could I get this removed please, cheers.

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:40 pm #338601

Be advised, after an extensive conversation with J_Madison in IRC in which numerous attempts to explain the current circumstances were made, I am of the opinion that the player in question neither understands why they were banned nor has any intention of changing the behavior that got them banned in the first place, as they are engaging in precisely the sort of high-overhead, low-benefit, toxic behavior that they were prior to the Rule 0 ban.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:42 pm #338602

Code: Select all

* JS38 (~JS38CH@Rizon-CD77D69A.res.bhn.net) has joined
<J_Madison> feem
<J_Madison> what do you mean by shopping admins
<J_Madison> that wasn't photoshopp.ed
<feem> J_Madison: i will not talk to you out-of-band about administration issues
<J_Madison> What do you mean by out of band, feem 
<J_Madison> both channels are official and public channels.
<feem> irrelevant
<feem> appeals are handled via the forums
<J_Madison> What is out of band, I'm not familiar with that lexicon
<feem> end of line
<J_Madison> Regardless. I do not discuss my private matters in public channels.
<feem> literally don't care
<feem> that isn't even my conversation or conceit in the conversation
<J_Madison> Alright. Let's talk something different from the ban, do you have some time to talk about that?
<feem> no
<J_Madison> Very well. Let me know when you do.
<feem> what do you want
<J_Madison> What is with your attitude all of a sudden? Nickpicking everything I say and becoming all of a sudden hostile?
<J_Madison> nitpicking*
<feem> i'm very disappointed in you
<J_Madison> That's fine. I'm curious what makes that. Was it the ban, or was it my involvement with your friend?
<feem> what friend
<feem> literally don't know what you're talking about
<J_Madison> I assumed you might have been pissed off about my involvement on the Joan complaint.
<feem> uh why
<J_Madison> I recall she was your friend.
<feem> i don't know joan and publicly stated that given the evidence the removal of joan was a good idea?
<feem> yeah you recall wrong dude
<feem> i repeatedly said the joan removal/ban was a good call
<feem> you are hardcore barking up stupid trees lately
<feem> hence the disappointment
<J_Madison> That's fine feem . I believe in some way you find Joan's removal satisfactory
* You have been kicked from #supportbus by NikNakFlak (NikNakFlak)
* Now talking on #supportbus
* Topic for #supportbus is: Include Round ID in all supportbus ahelp-equivalents || This is a serious channel, honest!
* Topic for #supportbus set by ExcessiveUseOfCobby!~qwebirc@9346A454.A71C500A.3C9BACCE.IP (Fri Sep 15 15:19:58 2017)
<J_Madison> But you weren't happy about how it happened.
<feem> i'm not happy with _goof_
<feem> i was perfectly happy with the complaint about joan
<J_Madison> Oh goofball and Remie's subsequent meltdown?
<NikNakFlak> stop taking the bait feem
<feem> i was NOT perfectly happy with using the complaint about joan to immediately launch into a scorched-earth campaign against everyone nearby
<J_Madison> I tried calming the situation with her.
<feem> i literally don't care jmad
<NikNakFlak> literally getting baited so hard
<feem> just stop putting shit in my mouth
<feem> NikNakFlak: i stand by everything i say
<Firecage> Guys guys, can't you guys just make up?
<J_Madison> Firecage just petty things. That's why I came to talk, but niknak wishes to kick me from supportbus and Feem is hostile.
<feem> J_Madison: i have almost no opinion of you outside of you keep doing dumb things
<J_Madison> Hence why I avoid public channels.
* ExcessiveUseOfCobby (~qwebirc@9346A454.A71C500A.3C9BACCE.IP) has joined
* [^_^] gives channel half-operator status to ExcessiveUseOfCobby
<NikNakFlak> excuse me feem I feel you are being hostile to me, is it because taco bell stopped selling taquito
<J_Madison> It's interesting feem , some things don't quite add up. 
<feem> oh my god
<feem> yes
<NikNakFlak> I have a feeling that has something to do with your hostility towards me
<feem> tell me all about the conspiracy you think i'm apart of
<feem> *a part of
<NikNakFlak> I recall you liked taquitos
<feem> NikNakFlak: i didn't know taco bell had taquitos
<J_Madison> I think you tried to gas light and memory hole something you mentioned about yourself. That's all.
<feem> NikNakFlak: i AM upset that they got rid of the chili cheese burrito
<feem> J_Madison: what
<NikNakFlak> i believe in some way, you find the removal of taquitos satisfactory 
<J_Madison> but you have no opinion of me because you haven't really known me. That's my opinion.
<feem> J_Madison: are you talking about the fact that i said i worked in security and then lied and told you i didn't?
<feem> J_Madison: please tell me what any of that has to do with administration
<feem> i look forward to your response
<NikNakFlak> you simply are mad because you don't really know the toquitos 
<feem> NikNakFlak: i will never forget them for dumping the chilito
<feem> and i hate their new beans
<feem> give me the 90s taco bell beans
<NikNakFlak> I dont really like taco bell tbh not that much
<feem> taco bell is vile but i eat it a fair amount
<NikNakFlak> stop that
<feem> nah
<J_Madison> No comment. You are a new admin and I mean that as a fact not an insult.
<NikNakFlak> eat healthier 
<NikNakFlak> >feem is a new admin 
<NikNakFlak> bud
<NikNakFlak> what constitutes new for you, past year or something 
<NikNakFlak> wtf
<J_Madison> I honestly haven't known much about you feem. aside that you aren't as you seem and we have had similar interests in the past, and maybe present.
<J_Madison> And that you seem very keen to pick at my appeal which has been backed by headmins and tear down  my argument and what I've developed so far.
<feem> my byond account is from like 2010 or something and i registered for ss13; my recorded first-seen on tgstation is january 2014 and i have 3734 connections with 4 notes, the most recent of which was in march 2015
<J_Madison> And taken a hostility to my words instead of my actions.
<feem> i am pretty sure i've had a good understanding of the rules for several years
<J_Madison> When did you become an admin?
<feem> so i don't believe being an admin within the past eight months is relevant
<feem> because i have understood the rules for my entire career
<NikNakFlak> u seem very out to get me feem
<feem> and, apparently, followed them
<NikNakFlak> WHO DO YOOU WORK FOR
<feem> further, if you didn't say stupid shit, i wouldn't nitpick your stupid shit
<NikNakFlak> WHO DOES NUMBER 2 WORK FOR
<feem> if you pay attention, i nitpick every thread that doesn't make sense in appeals
<feem> in my first, numerous, attempts to talk to you about your issues, i have carefully and calmly explained things to you
<feem> you have not taken those things to heart
<feem> and i am disappointed in that
<J_Madison> Yes. I understand. And I've been an ex host, I've been on tg since 2015.
<NikNakFlak> does ex host of a 9 person server count
<feem> that's great, i'm not attacking your qualifications, you're attacking mine
<J_Madison> Not everything has to make sense.
<NikNakFlak> LMAO
<feem> clearly 
<atlanta_ned> im an ex-host too 
<NikNakFlak> does running a test server count as ex-host
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> im going to host a server and invite my admin bros on it so I too can be a host
<feem> i've been running online games since about 1997
<feem> i had admin privileges on MUDs before that but that was my first personal game
<atlanta_ned> it was a very nice minecraft server thank you very much
<feem> we usually had about 30 players connected
<NikNakFlak> now all we gotta do is message all the hosts of the various servers and talk about random shit like taco bell
<NikNakFlak> boom, J_Mad qualification status
<feem> so seriously i don't get what you're trying to say about me, jmad
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> COME TOGETHER MY CHILDREN
<NikNakFlak> he wants to push your buttons
<feem> no no
<feem> he's serious; and that's why i'm disappointed
<feem> he honestly believes he's uncovering holes in the admins here
<NikNakFlak> we've concluded that he's delusional a long time ago feem
<feem> clearly
<NikNakFlak> when he accidently did a bunch of weird shit
<J_Madison> I'm just insulted feem that you took to nitpicking something private of me.
<feem> but that doesn't change my disappointment
<NikNakFlak> you have no privacy here
<NikNakFlak> big admin is watching
<feem> when you file an appeal based wholly upon the conceit that a headmin told you to, that's not private
<NikNakFlak> why say its private but then release it later
<NikNakFlak> why say its private when its not really private at all
<NikNakFlak> in what way is that private 
<J_Madison> You need better faith to understand that I don't lie.
<NikNakFlak> nobody cares about that
<feem> dude this isn't a matter of trust, this is a matter of public record
<NikNakFlak> dont screenshot this IRC channel guys
<NikNakFlak> this is a private matter
<J_Madison> Things have a right to privacy.
<feem> again, when your chief reason for filing an appeal which would otherwise be against the rules is that a headmin has given you permission to do so, the logs of that headmin giving you permission to do so are immediately relevant and keeping them private does not help you in any way
<J_Madison> This was clearly discussed and demonstrated that public record isn't necessarily a good thing when Judicator attempted to rule0 ban me the first time.
<NikNakFlak> i dont understand anymore
<J_Madison> it was shown that public record was incredibly intrusive to things that should have stayed private. And what turned from a private small incident turned into a major breach of privacy.
<NikNakFlak> that info was not private in anyway
<NikNakFlak> there's no reason for it to be private
<NikNakFlak> its only private because you say it is
<NikNakFlak> you can't use evidence in an appeal and then go "no no, no you cant look at it"
<NikNakFlak> wtf world do we live in anymore, jmad is just baiting you all and trolling because he's autistic 
<J_Madison> the armhulen convo wasn't private.
<feem> then what exactly is your issue
<feem> because that's all i was ever talking about?
<J_Madison> What about the other accusations
<feem> you mean that you asked multiple admins?
<J_Madison> shopping for admins? dude I talked to armhulen and got clearance before kor gave me it.
<feem> sometimes i go to a vendor and i'm like 'hey, give me a quote for this'
<feem> the fact that they gave me the quote that i eventually end up buying doesn't mean that i wasn't shopping when i asked other vendors too
<J_Madison> it wasn't a case of I went to kor and was dissatisfied, but that I went to arm and could have appealed on the 15th on the dot but was recommended to wait a little.
<J_Madison> then you nitpick that I appealed at minimal time when my appeal was nothing to do with the time.
<J_Madison> Do you have bad faith in everyone feem ?
<feem> I call up my hardware guy and say "Hey, give me a quote for this." He quotes me $550k. I'm like cool. For due diligence and to see if I can get a better deal, I call up four other vendors. They all give me prices plus or minus a certain amount, but the cheaper ones I don't already have purchasing agreements with yet and they aren't substantially cheaper, and I'm satisfied with the support I usually get fr
<feem> om the first vendor.
<feem> So I go with the first vendor, because it makes the most sense and is most beneficial to me.
<feem> In this case, I could easily have gone with the first vendor without any question or problems, but I wanted to make sure I was getting the best deal, including both monetary and actual (work) cost.
<feem> In the end, I did end up going with the first vendor.
<feem> This process is an example of shopping.
<feem> Similarly, when you talked to Arm, he gave you a suitable response. As you said, you then asked other admins for their opinions on the matter. They gave you differing opinions and you went with the first one.
<feem> This is an example of shopping.
<feem> In some instances, shopping is fine.
<J_Madison> Ah, but here's the thing. In my example feem it's different.
<feem> When looking for an admin ruling, privately shopping multiple administrators separately IS a bad thing.
<J_Madison> I decided to go to Store 1. and I was going to store 1 regardless.
<feem> That's literally what I just said.
<J_Madison> Only I went to store 2, then store 3, did I make my decision.
<J_Madison> I didn't shop at all. The decision was already made.
<feem> I went to my preferred vendor and they gave me a great deal and then I talked to some others and then I came back to the first vendor.
<J_Madison> I was going to appeal on the 15th.
<feem> Yes.
<feem> It's literally the same thing.
<feem> I wanted to make sure my ducks were in a row.
<J_Madison> on the spot. midnight within the minute.
<feem> But you're missing the point if you want to argue about this.
<J_Madison> I didn't even need to shop.
<J_Madison> Very well, I'll accept that point.
<feem> The problem here is that you did it to begin with.
<J_Madison> the problem is reasonable doubt feem.
<feem> No.
<feem> You're banned.
<J_Madison> and I stand by it. I was going to appeal regardless.
<feem> You're going to stay banned unless someone unbans you.
<feem> Your job as someone who's appealing that ban is to demonstrate that there is a good reason to unban you.
<J_Madison> There is a good reason to unban. it might not necessarily by public.
<feem> Then you're not going to get unbanned, if nobody knows why you should be unbanned.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> The burden of proof lies on you 
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> not admins to prove why you should stay banned
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> that's not how appealing works
<feem> I'm seriously so disappointed in you right now.
<feem> You are more than capable of understanding your situation.
<J_Madison> I'm not going to have private things be given to everyone to look on. This happened with my previous rule0 ban.
<J_Madison> What was a private incident about an admin ended up going public and revealing his personal information.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> Then how are you suppose to get unbanned
<J_Madison> This is a headmin rule 0. It requires 2 vote majority, 3 to repeal host.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> 2 have said you are to wait
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> "Ausops will almost certainly say later if not never, and I already said later, so yeah I am not sure why this thread is here now."
<J_Madison> I'm waiting for the final verdict.
<J_Madison> Regardless. I don't have infinite time. Waiting isn't in best interest.
<NikNakFlak> we have barely been free for a month
<feem> Are you dying?
<NikNakFlak> ausops just needs to come back and say no
<J_Madison> Military. Don't you remember?
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> If you have the ace up your sleeve it's probably a good time to use it.
<NikNakFlak> and make you go away again
<J_Madison> I'll be in BDUs by the time a year goes away.
<feem> No, I told you, I barely know who you are
<J_Madison> I think I mentioned it before. I'll be going by the time a year goes.
<feem> Great, don't care, not relevant.
<NikNakFlak> are you talking about the time you doxxed shaps
<NikNakFlak> because you accidently doxxed him
<J_Madison> That was a private incident which was blown up and put into public.
<NikNakFlak> maybe dont dox people
<NikNakFlak> everyone knows you are literally bat shit crazy
<J_Madison> I didn't. I was looking for his steam to play games at the time.
<NikNakFlak> i dunno why everyone beats around the bush
<NikNakFlak> you're a horrible person
<NikNakFlak> go away forever
<feem> Okay dude, here's the nitty gritty. There's no situation where a 2-vote against and a 1-vote wildcard from a set of three is going to turn into two votes for you. 
<J_Madison> NikNakFlak you sit and search people's IPs and you revealed clowns pocket as helios after he was given protection to keep himm out of the light?
<NikNakFlak> he was never given protection
<J_Madison> feem 4.1 votes total. 3 for headmins. 1.1 for host.
<NikNakFlak> and there no protection 
<J_Madison> Regardless, you shouldn't have done that.
<feem> So I'm going to assume since you're still talking that either you don't understand this, or that you somehow have MSO's backing.
<J_Madison> You do not reveal these things publically unless they're under a ban.
<NikNakFlak> I did, there is no right to privacy here 
<feem> In which case why aren't you leading with the fact that you have MSO's backing?
<J_Madison> I don't. I hope I can.
<NikNakFlak> nobody cared, people being shit get hit
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> J_Madison TCP's notes says he's helios
<NikNakFlak> dont spam poop in 10000 threads
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> admins already knew this
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> at least I did
<J_Madison> and feem I'm also doing it based on the fact atleast one of the headmins that confirmed the bans was banned and was shown to be purposely sabotaging the server.
<feem> Literally not relevant.
<J_Madison> Joan did things in bad faith and I'm looking to appeal a ban that was enforced by a traitor and saboteur.
<NikNakFlak> LMAO
<NikNakFlak> Golden
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> .halp
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> .help
<feem> I'm really disappointed in you, dude.
<NikNakFlak> MY CRIME HAS NO RELLEVANCE BECAUSE THE JUDGE WAS ALSO A CRIMINAL
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<NikNakFlak> fuck
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> but ausops was the one who banned you
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> ???
<NikNakFlak> wait one sec
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> now im confused
<J_Madison> the appeal was backed and enforced by a compromised jury.
<feem> oh my god it's a fucking video game
<J_Madison> no shit.
<NikNakFlak> my client is a dirty traitor!
<J_Madison> feem dude if you were at a trial and a member of the jury caused a hung jury because they know the accused
<feem> but i'm not
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> even if Joan was just being a bitch, that's still outnumbered
<J_Madison> you could appeal on the stop.
<feem> i'm an admin on a video game where you were banned for being a shithead
<feem> and now you're _being the same kind of shithead_
<feem> in your attempt to get unbanned
<J_Madison> That's your opinion.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> you are still 1-2
<J_Madison> huh?
<feem> you are literally demonstrating exactly the high-administrative-overhead low-positive-contribution circumstances that got you banned in the first place
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> pkp and ausops 
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> still were down with the ban
<J_Madison> since it was PKP ausops and Joan, host vote wasn't possible
<NikNakFlak> i share feem's opinion of jmad being a shit head but with lots more harshness attached
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> MSO has said he doesn't like the ban but he thinks you should have been perma'd for the gun RP
<NikNakFlak> jmad thinks that you need 3 people to rule 0 ban someone
<NikNakFlak> you dont need anyone actually
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> I've ruled 0 people
<J_Madison> New appeal, new things. Regardless of the gun rp, I was forgiven and there is no case on it.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> > case > jury
<J_Madison> Desucake and I came to an understanding. I was forgiven and they don't care.
<feem> hey important question
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> why
<feem> was i an admin when jmad did the desucake shit?
<NikNakFlak> yes
<feem> guess who's about to rule zero you for that, jmad
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> Consensual ERP is still ERP
<NikNakFlak> dont do it feem dont complicate things
<feem> why not
<J_Madison> That wasn't ERP. In fact it was funny.
<feem> he didn't get banned for that, he should've been
<NikNakFlak> there's no point because it'll muddle up the situation when he's already perma'd
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> Consensual Suggestive Themes that fall under rule 8 is still rule 8
<NikNakFlak> dont worry about his appeal, I have faith in our community to not actively try to get cancer
<feem> yeah it's funny to rp forced fellatio with a firearm
<J_Madison> Literally not a case.
<NikNakFlak> like his birth, jmad came 10 months too early
<feem> wait are you honestly claiming you weren't violating the rules when mso (whose vote you count on in your current appeal) already came out saying you should have been banned for it?
<J_Madison> We'll see at the verdict.
<NikNakFlak> his rape was forgiven!
<NikNakFlak> wtf feem
<NikNakFlak> cant you see
<J_Madison> Anyway.
<J_Madison> you are allowed to appeal and complain about a ban that lasts an attosecond if you feel it was improperly placed.
<feem> fyi since you seem to love jurisprudence so much, the state (in this case the host and admins) brings charges, not the victim
<J_Madison> Then I'll appeal the pistol ban afterward.
<NikNakFlak> hail mso
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> > this was a bad ban > well we disagree so improve your behavior and we'll reconsider > ok I have > proof? > sorry I can't show you
<NikNakFlak> this is a judge, jury and executioner world 
<J_Madison> I don't think it was serious enough to warrant a ban regardless.
* feem sets ban on *!*J_Madi@F997C03D:EC0EAFBD:6E0218AD:*
* You have been kicked from #supportbus by feem (you are not an admin, take this to the forums)
* Cannot join #supportbus (You are banned).

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:45 pm #338603

J_Madison wrote:

Code: Select all

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<J_Madison> feem
<J_Madison> what do you mean by shopping admins
<J_Madison> that wasn't photoshopp.ed
<feem> J_Madison: i will not talk to you out-of-band about administration issues
<J_Madison> What do you mean by out of band, feem 
<J_Madison> both channels are official and public channels.
<feem> irrelevant
<feem> appeals are handled via the forums
<J_Madison> What is out of band, I'm not familiar with that lexicon
<feem> end of line
<J_Madison> Regardless. I do not discuss my private matters in public channels.
<feem> literally don't care
<feem> that isn't even my conversation or conceit in the conversation
<J_Madison> Alright. Let's talk something different from the ban, do you have some time to talk about that?
<feem> no
<J_Madison> Very well. Let me know when you do.
<feem> what do you want
<J_Madison> What is with your attitude all of a sudden? Nickpicking everything I say and becoming all of a sudden hostile?
<J_Madison> nitpicking*
<feem> i'm very disappointed in you
<J_Madison> That's fine. I'm curious what makes that. Was it the ban, or was it my involvement with your friend?
<feem> what friend
<feem> literally don't know what you're talking about
<J_Madison> I assumed you might have been pissed off about my involvement on the Joan complaint.
<feem> uh why
<J_Madison> I recall she was your friend.
<feem> i don't know joan and publicly stated that given the evidence the removal of joan was a good idea?
<feem> yeah you recall wrong dude
<feem> i repeatedly said the joan removal/ban was a good call
<feem> you are hardcore barking up stupid trees lately
<feem> hence the disappointment
<J_Madison> That's fine feem . I believe in some way you find Joan's removal satisfactory
* You have been kicked from #supportbus by NikNakFlak (NikNakFlak)
* Now talking on #supportbus
* Topic for #supportbus is: Include Round ID in all supportbus ahelp-equivalents || This is a serious channel, honest!
* Topic for #supportbus set by ExcessiveUseOfCobby!~qwebirc@9346A454.A71C500A.3C9BACCE.IP (Fri Sep 15 15:19:58 2017)
<J_Madison> But you weren't happy about how it happened.
<feem> i'm not happy with _goof_
<feem> i was perfectly happy with the complaint about joan
<J_Madison> Oh goofball and Remie's subsequent meltdown?
<NikNakFlak> stop taking the bait feem
<feem> i was NOT perfectly happy with using the complaint about joan to immediately launch into a scorched-earth campaign against everyone nearby
<J_Madison> I tried calming the situation with her.
<feem> i literally don't care jmad
<NikNakFlak> literally getting baited so hard
<feem> just stop putting shit in my mouth
<feem> NikNakFlak: i stand by everything i say
<Firecage> Guys guys, can't you guys just make up?
<J_Madison> Firecage just petty things. That's why I came to talk, but niknak wishes to kick me from supportbus and Feem is hostile.
<feem> J_Madison: i have almost no opinion of you outside of you keep doing dumb things
<J_Madison> Hence why I avoid public channels.
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<NikNakFlak> excuse me feem I feel you are being hostile to me, is it because taco bell stopped selling taquito
<J_Madison> It's interesting feem , some things don't quite add up. 
<feem> oh my god
<feem> yes
<NikNakFlak> I have a feeling that has something to do with your hostility towards me
<feem> tell me all about the conspiracy you think i'm apart of
<feem> *a part of
<NikNakFlak> I recall you liked taquitos
<feem> NikNakFlak: i didn't know taco bell had taquitos
<J_Madison> I think you tried to gas light and memory hole something you mentioned about yourself. That's all.
<feem> NikNakFlak: i AM upset that they got rid of the chili cheese burrito
<feem> J_Madison: what
<NikNakFlak> i believe in some way, you find the removal of taquitos satisfactory 
<J_Madison> but you have no opinion of me because you haven't really known me. That's my opinion.
<feem> J_Madison: are you talking about the fact that i said i worked in security and then lied and told you i didn't?
<feem> J_Madison: please tell me what any of that has to do with administration
<feem> i look forward to your response
<NikNakFlak> you simply are mad because you don't really know the toquitos 
<feem> NikNakFlak: i will never forget them for dumping the chilito
<feem> and i hate their new beans
<feem> give me the 90s taco bell beans
<NikNakFlak> I dont really like taco bell tbh not that much
<feem> taco bell is vile but i eat it a fair amount
<NikNakFlak> stop that
<feem> nah
<J_Madison> No comment. You are a new admin and I mean that as a fact not an insult.
<NikNakFlak> eat healthier 
<NikNakFlak> >feem is a new admin 
<NikNakFlak> bud
<NikNakFlak> what constitutes new for you, past year or something 
<NikNakFlak> wtf
<J_Madison> I honestly haven't known much about you feem. aside that you aren't as you seem and we have had similar interests in the past, and maybe present.
<J_Madison> And that you seem very keen to pick at my appeal which has been backed by headmins and tear down  my argument and what I've developed so far.
<feem> my byond account is from like 2010 or something and i registered for ss13; my recorded first-seen on tgstation is january 2014 and i have 3734 connections with 4 notes, the most recent of which was in march 2015
<J_Madison> And taken a hostility to my words instead of my actions.
<feem> i am pretty sure i've had a good understanding of the rules for several years
<J_Madison> When did you become an admin?
<feem> so i don't believe being an admin within the past eight months is relevant
<feem> because i have understood the rules for my entire career
<NikNakFlak> u seem very out to get me feem
<feem> and, apparently, followed them
<NikNakFlak> WHO DO YOOU WORK FOR
<feem> further, if you didn't say stupid shit, i wouldn't nitpick your stupid shit
<NikNakFlak> WHO DOES NUMBER 2 WORK FOR
<feem> if you pay attention, i nitpick every thread that doesn't make sense in appeals
<feem> in my first, numerous, attempts to talk to you about your issues, i have carefully and calmly explained things to you
<feem> you have not taken those things to heart
<feem> and i am disappointed in that
<J_Madison> Yes. I understand. And I've been an ex host, I've been on tg since 2015.
<NikNakFlak> does ex host of a 9 person server count
<feem> that's great, i'm not attacking your qualifications, you're attacking mine
<J_Madison> Not everything has to make sense.
<NikNakFlak> LMAO
<feem> clearly 
<atlanta_ned> im an ex-host too 
<NikNakFlak> does running a test server count as ex-host
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> im going to host a server and invite my admin bros on it so I too can be a host
<feem> i've been running online games since about 1997
<feem> i had admin privileges on MUDs before that but that was my first personal game
<atlanta_ned> it was a very nice minecraft server thank you very much
<feem> we usually had about 30 players connected
<NikNakFlak> now all we gotta do is message all the hosts of the various servers and talk about random shit like taco bell
<NikNakFlak> boom, J_Mad qualification status
<feem> so seriously i don't get what you're trying to say about me, jmad
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> COME TOGETHER MY CHILDREN
<NikNakFlak> he wants to push your buttons
<feem> no no
<feem> he's serious; and that's why i'm disappointed
<feem> he honestly believes he's uncovering holes in the admins here
<NikNakFlak> we've concluded that he's delusional a long time ago feem
<feem> clearly
<NikNakFlak> when he accidently did a bunch of weird shit
<J_Madison> I'm just insulted feem that you took to nitpicking something private of me.
<feem> but that doesn't change my disappointment
<NikNakFlak> you have no privacy here
<NikNakFlak> big admin is watching
<feem> when you file an appeal based wholly upon the conceit that a headmin told you to, that's not private
<NikNakFlak> why say its private but then release it later
<NikNakFlak> why say its private when its not really private at all
<NikNakFlak> in what way is that private 
<J_Madison> You need better faith to understand that I don't lie.
<NikNakFlak> nobody cares about that
<feem> dude this isn't a matter of trust, this is a matter of public record
<NikNakFlak> dont screenshot this IRC channel guys
<NikNakFlak> this is a private matter
<J_Madison> Things have a right to privacy.
<feem> again, when your chief reason for filing an appeal which would otherwise be against the rules is that a headmin has given you permission to do so, the logs of that headmin giving you permission to do so are immediately relevant and keeping them private does not help you in any way
<J_Madison> This was clearly discussed and demonstrated that public record isn't necessarily a good thing when Judicator attempted to rule0 ban me the first time.
<NikNakFlak> i dont understand anymore
<J_Madison> it was shown that public record was incredibly intrusive to things that should have stayed private. And what turned from a private small incident turned into a major breach of privacy.
<NikNakFlak> that info was not private in anyway
<NikNakFlak> there's no reason for it to be private
<NikNakFlak> its only private because you say it is
<NikNakFlak> you can't use evidence in an appeal and then go "no no, no you cant look at it"
<NikNakFlak> wtf world do we live in anymore, jmad is just baiting you all and trolling because he's autistic 
<J_Madison> the armhulen convo wasn't private.
<feem> then what exactly is your issue
<feem> because that's all i was ever talking about?
<J_Madison> What about the other accusations
<feem> you mean that you asked multiple admins?
<J_Madison> shopping for admins? dude I talked to armhulen and got clearance before kor gave me it.
<feem> sometimes i go to a vendor and i'm like 'hey, give me a quote for this'
<feem> the fact that they gave me the quote that i eventually end up buying doesn't mean that i wasn't shopping when i asked other vendors too
<J_Madison> it wasn't a case of I went to kor and was dissatisfied, but that I went to arm and could have appealed on the 15th on the dot but was recommended to wait a little.
<J_Madison> then you nitpick that I appealed at minimal time when my appeal was nothing to do with the time.
<J_Madison> Do you have bad faith in everyone feem ?
<feem> I call up my hardware guy and say "Hey, give me a quote for this." He quotes me $550k. I'm like cool. For due diligence and to see if I can get a better deal, I call up four other vendors. They all give me prices plus or minus a certain amount, but the cheaper ones I don't already have purchasing agreements with yet and they aren't substantially cheaper, and I'm satisfied with the support I usually get fr
<feem> om the first vendor.
<feem> So I go with the first vendor, because it makes the most sense and is most beneficial to me.
<feem> In this case, I could easily have gone with the first vendor without any question or problems, but I wanted to make sure I was getting the best deal, including both monetary and actual (work) cost.
<feem> In the end, I did end up going with the first vendor.
<feem> This process is an example of shopping.
<feem> Similarly, when you talked to Arm, he gave you a suitable response. As you said, you then asked other admins for their opinions on the matter. They gave you differing opinions and you went with the first one.
<feem> This is an example of shopping.
<feem> In some instances, shopping is fine.
<J_Madison> Ah, but here's the thing. In my example feem it's different.
<feem> When looking for an admin ruling, privately shopping multiple administrators separately IS a bad thing.
<J_Madison> I decided to go to Store 1. and I was going to store 1 regardless.
<feem> That's literally what I just said.
<J_Madison> Only I went to store 2, then store 3, did I make my decision.
<J_Madison> I didn't shop at all. The decision was already made.
<feem> I went to my preferred vendor and they gave me a great deal and then I talked to some others and then I came back to the first vendor.
<J_Madison> I was going to appeal on the 15th.
<feem> Yes.
<feem> It's literally the same thing.
<feem> I wanted to make sure my ducks were in a row.
<J_Madison> on the spot. midnight within the minute.
<feem> But you're missing the point if you want to argue about this.
<J_Madison> I didn't even need to shop.
<J_Madison> Very well, I'll accept that point.
<feem> The problem here is that you did it to begin with.
<J_Madison> the problem is reasonable doubt feem.
<feem> No.
<feem> You're banned.
<J_Madison> and I stand by it. I was going to appeal regardless.
<feem> You're going to stay banned unless someone unbans you.
<feem> Your job as someone who's appealing that ban is to demonstrate that there is a good reason to unban you.
<J_Madison> There is a good reason to unban. it might not necessarily by public.
<feem> Then you're not going to get unbanned, if nobody knows why you should be unbanned.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> The burden of proof lies on you 
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> not admins to prove why you should stay banned
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> that's not how appealing works
<feem> I'm seriously so disappointed in you right now.
<feem> You are more than capable of understanding your situation.
<J_Madison> I'm not going to have private things be given to everyone to look on. This happened with my previous rule0 ban.
<J_Madison> What was a private incident about an admin ended up going public and revealing his personal information.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> Then how are you suppose to get unbanned
<J_Madison> This is a headmin rule 0. It requires 2 vote majority, 3 to repeal host.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> 2 have said you are to wait
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> "Ausops will almost certainly say later if not never, and I already said later, so yeah I am not sure why this thread is here now."
<J_Madison> I'm waiting for the final verdict.
<J_Madison> Regardless. I don't have infinite time. Waiting isn't in best interest.
<NikNakFlak> we have barely been free for a month
<feem> Are you dying?
<NikNakFlak> ausops just needs to come back and say no
<J_Madison> Military. Don't you remember?
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> If you have the ace up your sleeve it's probably a good time to use it.
<NikNakFlak> and make you go away again
<J_Madison> I'll be in BDUs by the time a year goes away.
<feem> No, I told you, I barely know who you are
<J_Madison> I think I mentioned it before. I'll be going by the time a year goes.
<feem> Great, don't care, not relevant.
<NikNakFlak> are you talking about the time you doxxed shaps
<NikNakFlak> because you accidently doxxed him
<J_Madison> That was a private incident which was blown up and put into public.
<NikNakFlak> maybe dont dox people
<NikNakFlak> everyone knows you are literally bat shit crazy
<J_Madison> I didn't. I was looking for his steam to play games at the time.
<NikNakFlak> i dunno why everyone beats around the bush
<NikNakFlak> you're a horrible person
<NikNakFlak> go away forever
<feem> Okay dude, here's the nitty gritty. There's no situation where a 2-vote against and a 1-vote wildcard from a set of three is going to turn into two votes for you. 
<J_Madison> NikNakFlak you sit and search people's IPs and you revealed clowns pocket as helios after he was given protection to keep himm out of the light?
<NikNakFlak> he was never given protection
<J_Madison> feem 4.1 votes total. 3 for headmins. 1.1 for host.
<NikNakFlak> and there no protection 
<J_Madison> Regardless, you shouldn't have done that.
<feem> So I'm going to assume since you're still talking that either you don't understand this, or that you somehow have MSO's backing.
<J_Madison> You do not reveal these things publically unless they're under a ban.
<NikNakFlak> I did, there is no right to privacy here 
<feem> In which case why aren't you leading with the fact that you have MSO's backing?
<J_Madison> I don't. I hope I can.
<NikNakFlak> nobody cared, people being shit get hit
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> J_Madison TCP's notes says he's helios
<NikNakFlak> dont spam poop in 10000 threads
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> admins already knew this
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> at least I did
<J_Madison> and feem I'm also doing it based on the fact atleast one of the headmins that confirmed the bans was banned and was shown to be purposely sabotaging the server.
<feem> Literally not relevant.
<J_Madison> Joan did things in bad faith and I'm looking to appeal a ban that was enforced by a traitor and saboteur.
<NikNakFlak> LMAO
<NikNakFlak> Golden
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> .halp
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> .help
<feem> I'm really disappointed in you, dude.
<NikNakFlak> MY CRIME HAS NO RELLEVANCE BECAUSE THE JUDGE WAS ALSO A CRIMINAL
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<NikNakFlak> fuck
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> but ausops was the one who banned you
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> ???
<NikNakFlak> wait one sec
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> now im confused
<J_Madison> the appeal was backed and enforced by a compromised jury.
<feem> oh my god it's a fucking video game
<J_Madison> no shit.
<NikNakFlak> my client is a dirty traitor!
<J_Madison> feem dude if you were at a trial and a member of the jury caused a hung jury because they know the accused
<feem> but i'm not
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> even if Joan was just being a bitch, that's still outnumbered
<J_Madison> you could appeal on the stop.
<feem> i'm an admin on a video game where you were banned for being a shithead
<feem> and now you're _being the same kind of shithead_
<feem> in your attempt to get unbanned
<J_Madison> That's your opinion.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> you are still 1-2
<J_Madison> huh?
<feem> you are literally demonstrating exactly the high-administrative-overhead low-positive-contribution circumstances that got you banned in the first place
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> pkp and ausops 
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> still were down with the ban
<J_Madison> since it was PKP ausops and Joan, host vote wasn't possible
<NikNakFlak> i share feem's opinion of jmad being a shit head but with lots more harshness attached
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> MSO has said he doesn't like the ban but he thinks you should have been perma'd for the gun RP
<NikNakFlak> jmad thinks that you need 3 people to rule 0 ban someone
<NikNakFlak> you dont need anyone actually
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> I've ruled 0 people
<J_Madison> New appeal, new things. Regardless of the gun rp, I was forgiven and there is no case on it.
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> > case > jury
<J_Madison> Desucake and I came to an understanding. I was forgiven and they don't care.
<feem> hey important question
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> why
<feem> was i an admin when jmad did the desucake shit?
<NikNakFlak> yes
<feem> guess who's about to rule zero you for that, jmad
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> Consensual ERP is still ERP
<NikNakFlak> dont do it feem dont complicate things
<feem> why not
<J_Madison> That wasn't ERP. In fact it was funny.
<feem> he didn't get banned for that, he should've been
<NikNakFlak> there's no point because it'll muddle up the situation when he's already perma'd
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> Consensual Suggestive Themes that fall under rule 8 is still rule 8
<NikNakFlak> dont worry about his appeal, I have faith in our community to not actively try to get cancer
<feem> yeah it's funny to rp forced fellatio with a firearm
<J_Madison> Literally not a case.
<NikNakFlak> like his birth, jmad came 10 months too early
<feem> wait are you honestly claiming you weren't violating the rules when mso (whose vote you count on in your current appeal) already came out saying you should have been banned for it?
<J_Madison> We'll see at the verdict.
<NikNakFlak> his rape was forgiven!
<NikNakFlak> wtf feem
<NikNakFlak> cant you see
<J_Madison> Anyway.
<J_Madison> you are allowed to appeal and complain about a ban that lasts an attosecond if you feel it was improperly placed.
<feem> fyi since you seem to love jurisprudence so much, the state (in this case the host and admins) brings charges, not the victim
<J_Madison> Then I'll appeal the pistol ban afterward.
<NikNakFlak> hail mso
<ExcessiveUseOfCobby> > this was a bad ban > well we disagree so improve your behavior and we'll reconsider > ok I have > proof? > sorry I can't show you
<NikNakFlak> this is a judge, jury and executioner world 
<J_Madison> I don't think it was serious enough to warrant a ban regardless.
* feem sets ban on *!*J_Madi@F997C03D:EC0EAFBD:6E0218AD:*
* You have been kicked from #supportbus by feem (you are not an admin, take this to the forums)
* Cannot join #supportbus (You are banned).

Jmad this was a private matter please retract.

Floyd / Qustinnus · Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:01 pm

I don't really know J_mad's history too well on TG, because my involvement in TG is mainly coderbus related and even that is fairly new. Even so; J_mad is an alright guy in general interaction and hasn't done anything negative on FTL, showing interest in helping out with teaching admins the roots. Also ironically enough J_mad is usually the guy that warns people not to metacomm nowadays so I guess he did learn from the situation.

Slignerd · Post by **Slignerd** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:30 pm #338616

As a note, this thread was made following the conversation that I had with Jmad in coderbus yesterday. His current situation is that his ban on the unofficial discord will be active as long as the server one is, which likely prompted him to make this appeal to begin with.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:41 pm #338621

Thank you for giving your testimony and getting your voice out there Floyd and Sligneris. I appreciate the support and I hope the truth can be found in this chaos.

To anyone that would like to offer their humble opinion and support to help me on this appeal, your voice will be heard and it does count!

Lexorion · Post by **Lexorion** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:11 pm #338626

J_Madison wrote:Thank you for giving your testimony and getting your voice out there Floyd and Sligneris. I appreciate the support and I hope the truth can be found in this chaos.

To anyone that would like to offer their humble opinion and support to help me on this appeal, your voice will be heard and it does count!

J_Madison wrote:[...]And for that, I'm sorry for trying to make the game play in my way using IC rules. Had I been an admin, things might be different.

I don't think their support will change a lot. It sounds a lot like you still don't understand why you got banned in the first place and you keep acting like it's unfair, undeserved. You didn't even consider to be wrong, did you?

J_Madison wrote:Perhaps. But should I wait a year to play SS13, I would be playing SS13 under BDUs.

The fact that you can't play in a year (most likely?) or atleast less shouldn't change the outcome in any way since your private matters have nothing to do with this.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:14 pm #338628

Floyd / Qustinnus wrote:I don't really know J_mad's history too well on TG, because my involvement in TG is mainly coderbus related and even that is fairly new. Even so; J_mad is an alright guy in general interaction and hasn't done anything negative on FTL, showing interest in helping out with teaching admins the roots. Also ironically enough J_mad is usually the guy that warns people not to metacomm nowadays so I guess he did learn from the situation.

He's always been obsessed with catching metacommers.

The problem is in relation to the discord is that he was the one metacomming but that's excusable because x y z.

Slignerd · Post by **Slignerd** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:25 pm #338630

J_Madison wrote:Thank you for giving your testimony and getting your voice out there Floyd and Sligneris. I appreciate the support and I hope the truth can be found in this chaos.

To anyone that would like to offer their humble opinion and support to help me on this appeal, your voice will be heard and it does count!

I'm mostly neutral on this matter, actually.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:52 pm #338648

J_Madison wrote:
Jacough wrote:Didn't Ausops get reelected anyway? Doesn't that still mean it's up to him? On top of that
Rule 0 bans appeals involve headmins and sometimes host.
Rule 0 headmin ban appeals require all parties present.

Requires a 2 majority vote to ban, with host vote worth 1.1 meaning if it's Host and Headmin vs 2 headmins, Host and headmin vote wins.
Edit: footnote, abstain votes default to host vote side. This occurred during my Judicator rule 0 ban if I recall.

Requires a 3 vote majority to prevent host vote (unless host order is executed).

Why are you inventing policy?

onleavedontatme · Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:58 pm

He is not inventing policy though, it was just a really drawn out way to say headmins vote on things if there is disagreement and MSO very ocassionally steps in (usually when we request it).

Bans happen to be one of the things headmins sometimes are called to make decisions on.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:00 pm #338655

question:

if we want to talk to a headmin should we make a forum thread for it?

because PMs/IRC/Discord are a no-go with the precedent set with this appeal denial

feem · Post by **feem** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:12 pm #338661

You need to talk to ADMINS via logged communications about ban appeals, primarily the forums or the game itself. This is for the sanity of the headmins (being able to keep track of their admins), for the protection of the admins (so that what players say to them can be logged), and for the protection of the players (so that what admins say to them can be logged).

HEADMINS can be talked to in a number of different ways, but they GENERALLY provide rulings via the forums or the game itself.

If you make a claim on the forums that a headmin said something outside of the game, the headmin will answer for that and it behooves you to have some kind of log that it's occurred, especially if, short of that headmin statement outside of the game, you would otherwise be breaking the rules for your appeal, such as is currently the case.

I apologize if you got the impression from this that you weren't allowed to talk to headmins.

tl;dr: accountability helps EVERYONE and out-of-band (i.e. private or out-of-game) conversations should GENERALLY be limited to things which would otherwise be incriminating or which involve sensitive or potentially destructive issues (e.g. stalking, severe security flaws and exploits, et al -- things that have wide or catastrophic impact if not handled with discretion)

tl;dr2: The outcomes of and statements made within specific situations do not always result in wide-ranging and universal truths or precedents; often they're limited to the outcomes of that specific situation and are related to the mitigating or specific circumstances of that situation.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:20 pm #338663

Lexorion wrote: I don't think their support will change a lot. It sounds a lot like you still don't understand why you got banned in the first place and you keep acting like it's unfair, undeserved. You didn't even consider to be wrong, did you?

I asked myself what could I have done wrong?

Was I a bad player ICly? No.
Was I a detriment to development? Definitely not.

I felt that I was banned wrongly, so I appealed it on the spot.
And then I was banned for it.

What did I do to deserve "detriment to community" despite my contribution and support to the server?

You can only have feem's "high-administrative-overhead low-positive-contribution" paradox because some admins have been focusing unnecessary attention and resources on this ban.

Nilons · Post by **Nilons** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:24 pm #338664

J_Madison wrote:
Lexorion wrote: I don't think their support will change a lot. It sounds a lot like you still don't understand why you got banned in the first place and you keep acting like it's unfair, undeserved. You didn't even consider to be wrong, did you?
I asked myself what could I have done wrong?

Was I a bad player ICly? No.
Was I a detriment to development? Definitely not.

I felt that I was banned wrongly, so I appealed it on the spot.
And then I was banned for it.

What did I do to deserve "detriment to community" despite my contribution and support to the server?

You can only have feem's "high-administrative-overhead low-positive-contribution" paradox because some admins have been focusing unnecessary attention and resources on this ban.

You're either gonna have to admit that you're at fault and are not being targeted or likely face similar response when you appeal next time.

Can't speak to whether you were banned justly but at some point you've got to learn when to concede if you wanna play on this server, at least that's the vibe I'm getting from the responses in this thread.