Beesting12 - Headban for tail bounty

[Oldman Robustin]

Byond account and character name: ForcefulCJS/Oldman Robustin
Banning admin: beesting12
Ban type (What are you banned from?): All head positions
Ban reason and length: 3 days for Rule 1

"As captain, placed a bounty on tails causing multiple lizards to be imprisoned and detailed over it. Captain gimmicks are okay, but the rules are that it should be original/interesting and not end in a ton of people's deaths. Please reread our rules, particularly rule one: You shouldn't be a dick to someone else just because their pixels look different than yours."*

*Beesting12 clarified next round that nobody died because of my meme and acknowledged that I would not tolerate murder by anyone trying to obtain a tail. I am also unaware of anyone being imprisoned and did not order any arrests except for Gratian Sloan, who sabotaged the SM.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 4:40pm EST on 10/10/17
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil

I was captain, I essentially offered a "free request" for anyone who brought me a cat/lizard tail with the exception that murder wouldn't be tolerated. QM had been making 2,000 credit offers for lizards in cuffs so I upped the anti.

Over the course of the round I think cargo detached a couple tails, nobody ever brought me one or attempted to offer me on. At no point did I advocate for any other harassment or violence against any crew (except Gratian Sloan for turning the SM into a singularity).

I thought it would be a harmless meme. Getting mad at me for discriminating against pixels makes about as much sense as getting mad that I took SOME of your special pixels away. I had never done a gimmick like this in any role and I have never seen a captain literally competitively bid against cargo to see who could offer a higher price on lizard tails. All in all it was the only intrigue that took place on an otherwise boring SM sabotage 25m round.

I also viewed the antics as harmless. If I could get someone job banned every time they arrested me for a shitty reason and had me bucklecuffed for a few minutes, there wouldn't be any sec players left on the server. Tail removal is a fast and harmless procedure, the biggest downside is that you're being restrained for a couple minutes, which again, has never been a bannable offense - the surgery takes less time than the typical "gotta bucklecuff you for a search oh but im going to run off before unbuckling you" security search.

So maybe I'm missing something but I just don't see whats bannable about this - if I had ordered everyone's heads shaved would that be bannable too? Like I said I never even got an offer for a tail and the QM kept increasing their offer so I didn't even end up with a tail, someone should ban that QM for their outrageous prices! But seriously, it has no impact on people's rounds except a few minutes of their time and costing someone a few minutes of their time is for most admins the definition of "IC ISSUE".

I have never done anything like this as a head, hell I've never even removed a tail, and I've never seen a captain offers bounties for tails (let alone get in a bidding war for them) so Beesting12's explanation of "Well you went for a tired stale meme so its a ban" reasoning doesn't check out either. I mean we chose to institutionalize racism and every single day we allow the AI to kill lizards/catpeople because they harmed a human, so I'm getting REALLY mixed messages about our policy when we've chosen to literally give these crew "second class" status that can literally get them killed but if someone steps in and does something silly like removes a tail you've gone TOO FAR. So what is it?

[captain sawrge]

I also viewed the antics as harmless. If I could get someone job banned every time they arrested me for a shitty reason and had me bucklecuffed for a few minutes, there wouldn't be any sec players left on the server. Tail removal is a fast and harmless procedure, the biggest downside is that you're being restrained for a couple minutes, which again, has never been a bannable offense - the surgery takes less time than the typical "gotta bucklecuff you for a search oh but im going to run off before unbuckling you" security search.

Factually incorrect and you've been around long enough to see it happen.

Redtape was permabanned for forced surgeries
Other players have been banned or warned for forced gender reassignment surgery

It's annoying and stupid and wastes people's time for a stupid unfunny joke

[BeeSting12]

Gratian Sloan blew up the SM, I'm Edward Sloan

[BeeSting12]

The qm was banned as well

[Oldman Robustin]

I also viewed the antics as harmless. If I could get someone job banned every time they arrested me for a shitty reason and had me bucklecuffed for a few minutes, there wouldn't be any sec players left on the server. Tail removal is a fast and harmless procedure, the biggest downside is that you're being restrained for a couple minutes, which again, has never been a bannable offense - the surgery takes less time than the typical "gotta bucklecuff you for a search oh but im going to run off before unbuckling you" security search.

Factually incorrect and you've been around long enough to see it happen.

Redtape was permabanned for forced surgeries
Other players have been banned or warned for forced gender reassignment surgery

It's annoying and stupid and wastes people's time for a stupid unfunny joke

Maybe I wasn't around for this supposed heydey of tail removal. I remember "GAS THE LIGGERS RACE WAR NOW!" being shouted for a while after lizards were added but by the time we added tail-removal it really died down and even with all the shitty captain memes I've seen I have yet to see one focused on removing tails. I also have no idea who Redtape is or what the circumstances of their ban were.

I dont even know what a detached tail looks like, im actually curious.

It's annoying and stupid and wastes people's time for a stupid unfunny joke

That's like 90% of SS13. It was also by far the only interesting thing that happened that round. The QM was already paying for cuffed lizards, I made an offer for the tails, the QM doubled my offer, I counter-offered, appreciated the irony that a cat-girl was stealing other tails, and haggling on the price of a tail was the bright point of an otherwise terrible shuttle rush round.

I still haven't heard from anyone who actually had their round messed up or any details about how or why that happened. This isn't my saltiest ban at all, outside of vaguely referencing "tons of people's deaths" that never even happened, Beesting12 handled this reasonably, plus its a jobban... I just hope it gets a headmin to sack up and explain this shit because if there's one lesson I've learned in my thousands of hours playing SS13 its that someone holding up your round for a few minutes is the standard definition for "IC issue". This feels more like a strawman for a bigger debate about adding races to SS13 than it does about sensible policy.

Would I be here if I offered a bounty on appendices instead?

[captain sawrge]

Would I be here if I offered a bounty on appendices instead?

Yes because that is literally the precedent I am talking about.

[captain sawrge]

I didn't read any other part of your post btw. 20 words or less next time please.

[feem]

So just to clarify:

* QM was arbitrarily asking for randos to arrest your lizard crew members and bring them to cargo for ???
* To resolve this issue, you decided to give people good boy points/favors for arresting lizards, cutting off their tails, and bringing you lizard tails

Please explain to me how essentially ordering the entire crew to hunt down other members of the crew who hadn't done anything in order to perform forced surgery on them isn't being a dick?

An IC issue is when you cut off a rando lizard's tail because they got into an altercation with you, or when the same security officer arrests you three times in a row for absolutely no reason and the warden has to keep letting you out, and the fourth time he comes by you dunk him, or something where there's actually some kind of escalation path, or at least an entertaining prank.

"LOL RACE WAR NOW BUT DON'T KILL ANYONE ;3" isn't funny to anyone but you, and is an abuse of the head role.

Edit: The idea of the QM and the Captain one-upping each other on trying to collect tails is actually pretty entertaining, but is still super dick A-1 for calling for open season on forced surgeries.

[Oldman Robustin]

So just to clarify:

* QM was arbitrarily asking for randos to arrest your lizard crew members and bring them to cargo for ???
* To resolve this issue, you decided to give people good boy points/favors for arresting lizards, cutting off their tails, and bringing you lizard tails

Please explain to me how essentially ordering the entire crew to hunt down other members of the crew who hadn't done anything in order to perform forced surgery on them isn't being a dick?

An IC issue is when you cut off a rando lizard's tail because they got into an altercation with you, or when the same security officer arrests you three times in a row for absolutely no reason and the warden has to keep letting you out, and the fourth time he comes by you dunk him, or something where there's actually some kind of escalation path, or at least an entertaining prank.

"LOL RACE WAR NOW BUT DON'T KILL ANYONE ;3" isn't funny to anyone but you, and is an abuse of the head role.

Edit: The idea of the QM and the Captain one-upping each other on trying to collect tails is actually pretty entertaining, but is still super dick A-1 for calling for open season on forced surgeries.

Even calling it forced surgery feels like a joke, shaving my head takes 5 seconds, cutting off a tail takes 6. I can literally cut off a lizard's tail during the duration of a single stun and it does 0 damage and has 0 impact on the person's round.

This isn't the "10 step process that keeps people trapped in surgery as the surgeon reads the wiki and has you bleeding out on the table with 60 brute" this isnt "weird rapey genital surgery".

This is shaving for lizards, that's literally how I see it and I haven't seen anyone explain otherwise why removing someone's tail with a 6 second procedure is some kind of racial genocide.

[CitrusGender]

"LOL RACE WAR NOW BUT DON'T KILL ANYONE ;3" isn't funny to anyone but you, and is an abuse of the head role.

Edit: The idea of the QM and the Captain one-upping each other on trying to collect tails is actually pretty entertaining, but is still super dick A-1 for calling for open season on forced surgeries.

Now, I am not going to lie: I think what Robustin did was hilarious.
However, I have been put in a similar situation before where I was ordered by the captain to cut off the tails of lizards for fun. I recall feverishly ahelping the admins to make sure that it was okay and the response I got back from Gouty was "not this shit again" and something along the lines of "you can do it, but only because someone else told you to do it."

Unfortunately, I think this does fall under rule one due to the fact that somebody's round is being impacted by the propagation of such a behavior that encourages people to stun others randomly to steal their tail. It's the same thing as if a sec officer just went around doing it to random people due to their own reason, it would obviously warrant many ahelps to be sent out.

However, I believe that such a round behavior is hilarious every time that I see it and, although I understand that it may hurt some people, I still think that although this gimic may not be funny to the people who have seen it 20 times but may be funny to the people who are newer who have a story to tell about the time when lizards had to run from security to save their tails. It's one of those things that some people find funny and some other people don't find funny because some people can be legitimately harmed by it.

Still, I think that as long as something like this doesn't become a habbit (BY SPECIFICALY ROBUSTIN), it should be allowed. Though, I guess an interpritation on the word "dick" being anything that inconviences people, from my experiences. Sorry Robustin.

[Oldman Robustin]

Like I said this is the first time I've ever even been involved in race stuff as a Head, and the first time I've ever encouraged the collection of tails.

In light of the confusion surrounding this though I will be going clown until this ban is over and slipping lizards and removing their tales before the stun is over.

The sooner we can start seeing this as Shaving Meme 2.0 and not Forced Genital Mutilation 2.0, the better.

[Pascal125]

>Shave some guys head, they can get it back by clicking a mirror.
>Take someones tail "for jokes" and sell it to Cargo, not even cloning will get it back.

Do you see the problem, here? It's not as clear cut as you are trying to make it seem. It's being a dick. Both instances are being a dick, but this one has lasting effects on people's sprites. And why? For no logical reason. That is the issue.

[Qbopper]

In light of the confusion surrounding this though I will be going clown until this ban is over and slipping lizards and removing their tales before the stun is over.

I have no strong opinion on if this is an IC issue or not, but when you get a rule 1 ban and literally tell the admin you're going to double down in the appeal, you're absolutely making yourself look bad

I probably need to elaborate on why I have no strong opinion to avoid being memed:

on the one hand, yeah, removing tails is mechanically not a big deal, it's like, what, a slip followed by a few seconds, and has no lasting impact gameplay wise

on the other, do you really expect "lol capture lizards and remove their tails" to go over perfectly fine with no major conflicts at all?

[Nilons]

There was a policy thread about how it's explicitly not ok to do this in the last week. How are you confused on it not being ok to do something that was said to not be ok in one of the first policy threads you see when you open the subforum

[BeeSting12]

Letting you get away with it would set the shitty precedent that others can as well. I've seen many captains attempt a race war meme, and mostly they were shut down by an admin or ICly. Race wars are unfunny, overdone, and unoriginal. Our rule on captain gimmicks, I believe, is that it must be original and not kill a ton of people- yours violated the first part.

There's also rule one to take into consideration: Don't be a dick. Obviously, the game is about conflict- usually involving one/both sides being a dick to the other, but head roles should be held to a higher standard than, say, a QM taking tails to sell in cargo. This is mainly because head roles, especially the captain/HoS have the support of security, essentially making them untouchable if you want to just enjoy doing your own thing.

The tldr here is that I believe targetting one group of players, in this case, lizards, is a violation of rule one- disrupting someone's round for very little IC reason, if any at all, with no proper escalation behind it at all. That's why you were given a headban and the QM was given a ban for a few hours.

edit: Anyways, not posting in this again. I'd like for a headmin to make a ruling here so we can get this over with instead of evolving it into a four page argument, that's probably gonna happen in policy discussion already.

[imblyings]

not this shit again

Head roles shouldn't be used for the purpose of arbitrarily inconveniencing other players but on the other hand, tail removal is really a non-issue if we're going to not ever do anything about clowns going around slipping and taking tails.

[Oldman Robustin]

In light of the confusion surrounding this though I will be going clown until this ban is over and slipping lizards and removing their tales before the stun is over.

I have no strong opinion on if this is an IC issue or not, but when you get a rule 1 ban and literally tell the admin you're going to double down in the appeal, you're absolutely making yourself look bad

I probably need to elaborate on why I have no strong opinion to avoid being memed:

on the one hand, yeah, removing tails is mechanically not a big deal, it's like, what, a slip followed by a few seconds, and has no lasting impact gameplay wise

on the other, do you really expect "lol capture lizards and remove their tails" to go over perfectly fine with no major conflicts at all?

I cleared it with a headmin with the understanding that its independent of this appeal.

Also common fucking sense.

[Oldman Robustin]

Letting you get away with it would set the shitty precedent that others can as well. I've seen many captains attempt a race war meme, and mostly they were shut down by an admin or ICly. Race wars are unfunny, overdone, and unoriginal. Our rule on captain gimmicks, I believe, is that it must be original and not kill a ton of people- yours violated the first part.

There's also rule one to take into consideration: Don't be a dick. Obviously, the game is about conflict- usually involving one/both sides being a dick to the other, but head roles should be held to a higher standard than, say, a QM taking tails to sell in cargo. This is mainly because head roles, especially the captain/HoS have the support of security, essentially making them untouchable if you want to just enjoy doing your own thing.

The tldr here is that I believe targetting one group of players, in this case, lizards, is a violation of rule one- disrupting someone's round for very little IC reason, if any at all, with no proper escalation behind it at all. That's why you were given a headban and the QM was given a ban for a few hours.

edit: Anyways, not posting in this again. I'd like for a headmin to make a ruling here so we can get this over with instead of evolving it into a four page argument, that's probably gonna happen in policy discussion already.

It's not a shitty precedent you only need to do what we've done here for years.

"Ok just don't make it a habit, if I see you doing this repeatedly this will escalate to a ban"

Ban problem solved, message delivered, nuanced policy position achieved, world peace solve, racism over, we can all die happy. If you need an extra confidence booster make it an admin announcement post-game, pre-the-next-game or whatever.

That's literally what this all boils down to "Ok nothing really bad happened this time, nobody died or had their round ruined and many people thought it was kind of funny... but IF WE DONT BAN ROBUSTIN HOW WILL HE KNOW NOT TO SUDDENLY DO THIS EVERY WEEK.

It's especially frustrating since I'm literally one of the last competent players who plays captain, I generally take the role seriously and once the SM started to delam I shifted 100% of my energy to trying to save the station. I just wanted to mix things up as captain and wouldn't you know I get a ban for making an announcement that didn't even get me a tail (I can't vouch for the QM's success). Considering tails are extracted in a 6 second one-step surgery I was (and still am) surprised that anyone would feel a ban was necessary to make their point when the position is so murky the admin has to open with "I need to check what our multi-page policy thread says".

Hint: It doesn't say anything, I didn't even know about it, and its still devoid of any headmin ruling.

[Pascal125]

Funny how you say that around right after a round ended where you ran around as a chemist with stunchems forcefully removing peoples tails for no reason and gloating. As-well as spending several shifts doing it.

[imblyings]

I would rather our players not be conditioned to think they've been massively wronged to the point admins must get involved if a few pixels get deleted. Should it be considered baiting and starting an escalation at a reasonably high level? yes Should it be considered major grief if it's part of an overall larger attempt at griefing a player? yes Is it IC by itself otherwise? I can't find any reason to not say yes

Head roles shouldn't be used for the purpose of arbitrarily inconveniencing other players but on the other hand, tail removal is really a non-issue if we're going to not ever do anything about clowns going around slipping and taking tails.