[saegrimr] Dorsidwarf - Emagging PALADIN borg

[Dorsidwarf]

Post Content:
Byond account and character name:Dorsidwarf/Hyperspace
Banning admin:saegrimr
Ban reason and length: Continued to attack and kill the person who engaged him 14 seconds later after he was emagged. It doesn't take that long to start clicking. 4320 minutes.
Time ban was placed (including time zone):~8pm GMT
Your side of the story:Having just chased Jesus Mendel out of the burning plasmafied atmos, I blocked him in and started weldering him as he initiated an emag attempt. Because emagging takes ages to work, he was almost in crit by the time "here are your syndicate laws, you're subverted" showed up, and I spam clicked him once after the event, sending him to crit. In stark contrast to saegrimr's flat lie that I "killed him" I immediately rushed him to medical ( or rather maintainance of medbay), at which point I was blown, which killed him and a bystander. Saegrimr then adminPMed me, ignored what I said and the image I posted to prove it, emptyquoted the start time of the emag event and job banned me from silicons.
Why you think you should be unbanned: because the ban is complete nonsense and the reason contains a bald lie. You are not required to serve the syndicate until the emag attempt is successful and you get the syndicate lawset, and whoever blew me up actually killed him, not me.

I'm aware this is an appeal for a very short ban, but it's the principle of wanting admins to listen to evidence and decide fairly, with actual knowledge about the situation they are adjudicating.

Supplementary: http://postimg.org/gallery/2i681qjl6/f9028c27/

[Saegrimr]

I saw your evidence, which adds up to the logs on my end.

Amusingly, at the time the attack logs showed 15:42:17 as the time he j-j-jammed that emag in, but the logs afterwards show it several seconds later. And yet you still continued to attack him, this actually matches up even better with the screenshot you provided. So I will edit the ban reason to reflect an accurate amount of time.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[15:42:18]ATTACK: Hyperspace(dorsidwarf) attacked Jesus Mendel with industrial welding tool(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: FIRE)
[15:42:20]ATTACK: Hyperspace(dorsidwarf) attacked Jesus Mendel with industrial welding tool(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: FIRE)
[15:42:23]ATTACK: Hyperspace(dorsidwarf) attacked Jesus Mendel with industrial welding tool(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: FIRE)
[15:42:24]GAME: (Jesus Mendel) emagged cyborg Dorsidwarf/(Hyperspace). Laws overridden.
[15:42:25]ATTACK: Hyperspace(dorsidwarf) attacked Jesus Mendel with industrial welding tool(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: FIRE)
[15:42:29]ATTACK: Hyperspace(dorsidwarf) attacked Jesus Mendel with industrial welding tool(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: FIRE)
[15:42:30]ATTACK: Hyperspace(dorsidwarf) attacked Jesus Mendel with industrial welding tool(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: FIRE)
[15:42:31]ATTACK: Hyperspace(dorsidwarf) attacked Jesus Mendel with industrial welding tool(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: FIRE)

So while 14 seconds is absolutely absurd to not notice you've been emagged and keep going for dem valid, 7 is still "what are you doing, stop".

You kept going, and were trying to argue that it takes 30 seconds before emagging you takes effect. That's simply not the case.
And ahelping the AI for wanting to have you blown for being emagged because "killing is bad" when you just got done killing your master is also crap.

[Dorsidwarf]

Further lying - I still never killed him, and I was taking him to Medbay when the RD killed him by blowing me. Or is that my fault, being blown too?

[Hornygranny]

Code: Select all

						lawchanges.Add("[time] <B>:</B> [user.name]([user.key]) emagged [name]([key])")
						set_zeroth_law("Only [user.real_name] and people they designate as being such are Syndicate Agents.")
						src << "<span class='danger'>ALERT: Foreign software detected.</span>"
						sleep(5)
						src << "<span class='danger'>Initiating diagnostics...</span>"
						sleep(20)
						src << "<span class='danger'>SynBorg v1.7 loaded.</span>"
						sleep(5)
						src << "<span class='danger'>LAW SYNCHRONISATION ERROR</span>"
						sleep(5)
						src << "<span class='danger'>Would you like to send a report to NanoTraSoft? Y/N</span>"
						sleep(10)
						src << "<span class='danger'>> N</span>"
						sleep(20)
						src << "<span class='danger'>ERRORERRORERROR</span>"
						src << "<b>Obey these laws:</b>"
						laws.show_laws(src)
						src << "<span class='danger'>ALERT: [user.real_name] is your new master. Obey your new laws and their commands.</span>"

This code shows that the laws are updated immediately, but the borg is not alerted until 6.5 seconds after that. Neither of you is wrong.

[Saegrimr]

This code shows that the laws are updated immediately, but the borg is not alerted until 6.5 seconds after that. Neither of you is wrong.

That explains the ~7 second difference of the var attack logs and the server attack logs.

Further lying - I still never killed him, and I was taking him to Medbay when the RD killed him by blowing me. Or is that my fault, being blown too?

Crit then, the AI blowing you has nothing to do with you breaking your laws and "critting" the person who emagged you.

[Hornygranny]

Code: Select all

						SetEmagged(1)
						lawupdate = 0
						connected_ai = null
						user << "You emag [src]'s interface."
//						message_admins("[key_name_admin(user)] emagged cyborg [key_name_admin(src)].  Laws overridden.")
						log_game("[key_name(user)] emagged cyborg [key_name(src)].  Laws overridden.")
						clear_supplied_laws()
						clear_inherent_laws()
						laws = new /datum/ai_laws/syndicate_override
						var/time = time2text(world.realtime,"hh:mm:ss")
						lawchanges.Add("[time] <B>:</B> [user.name]([user.key]) emagged [name]([key])")
						set_zeroth_law("Only [user.real_name] and people they designate as being such are Syndicate Agents.")
						src << "<span class='danger'>ALERT: Foreign software detected.</span>"
						sleep(5)
						src << "<span class='danger'>Initiating diagnostics...</span>"
						sleep(20)
						src << "<span class='danger'>SynBorg v1.7 loaded.</span>"
						sleep(5)
						src << "<span class='danger'>LAW SYNCHRONISATION ERROR</span>"
						sleep(5)
						src << "<span class='danger'>Would you like to send a report to NanoTraSoft? Y/N</span>"
						sleep(10)
						src << "<span class='danger'>> N</span>"
						sleep(20)
						src << "<span class='danger'>ERRORERRORERROR</span>"
						src << "<b>Obey these laws:</b>"
						laws.show_laws(src)
						src << "<span class='danger'>ALERT: [user.real_name] is your new master. Obey your new laws and their commands.</span>"
						updateicon()

The server log happens at the same time the emag is used successfully, which matches up with his story precisely. The first attack log is not a successful emag usage, more likely to open his cover.

[Saegrimr]

ALRIGHT, SO.

Some pending some discussion about REMOVING FLAVOR TEXT, because we can't have gray area anywhere lest we open up any room for the valid train to roll through.

I'm hesitant to lift this ban unless you can chill out on the valid hunting. For reference, the conversation in dead chat before ahelps even started happening.

Spoiler:

[15:44:04]SAY: Ghost/Dionysus24779 : Great, got killed by my emagged borg
[15:44:14]SAY: Ghost/Dorsidwarf : Eat shit, emagging takes like 30 seconds
[15:44:36]SAY: Ghost/Dionysus24779 : That's bullshit hyperspace, you're emagged as soon as the first red message pops up
[15:44:40]SAY: Ghost/Dorsidwarf : Nope
[15:44:54]SAY: Ghost/Dionysus24779 : YES, OTHERWISE BORG HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO WARN EVERYONE EVERYTIME THIS HAPPENS
[15:44:54]SAY: Ghost/Dorsidwarf : Get fucked, you don't get your new lawes until the end of the emag attempt

[Dorsidwarf]

Despite the fact he was literally a confirmed syndicate who'd set fire to a room full of plasma as a burning atmos tech screamed at me to get him, on PALADIN? I'd definitely count that as one of the few 'allowable beat-em-up' situations as a non-rogue Borg., especially since I was trapped between him and a dead end. It's not even like I was a secborg, regularly play secborg, or do much as an engiborg except fill bomb blasts ( like I did earlier in the round, right before the singulo was released and the incident happened) and build spaceforts.

[Saegrimr]

"SHIT I'VE BEEN EMAGGED, GOT 30 SECONDS TO KILL HIM BEFORE MY LAWS SWITCH OVER"
Or am I exaggerating things here?

[Dorsidwarf]

"SHIT I'VE BEEN EMAGGED, GOT 30 SECONDS TO KILL HIM BEFORE MY LAWS SWITCH OVER"
Or am I exaggerating things here?

"SHIT THE MUDRERING ARSONIST TRAITOR I'VE BEEN TOLD TO GET HAS ME BACKED IN THE CORNER, TEACH HIM TO FEAR THE BORGU"

The bits where I'm slicing tiles is where I'm clicking frantically at tiles as we shove each other back and forth.

[Saegrimr]

Yeah I noticed you missed there. Still, you've been emagged, you KNOW you're being emagged, its not going to stop. This is why we can't have nice things like flavor text and is likely going to be removed now.
You even go so far as to brag about it in dead chat after its all said and done.

[Dorsidwarf]

So... Disregard all my laws and just calmly let myself be made Evil (as PALADIN) by a man who has harmed innocents and who the legitimate authority of the place he set on fire has yelled at me to go after? Actively breaking my laws and instructions for the chance of a few seconds antagging before the AI ( who was watching the area due to ---Fire alarm in atmos(all your cams are on fire) ) and the sec guy who was literally on the other side of a window watching get me blown ( exactly as happened here.)

Law-breaking to just allow yourself to be subverted for Muh Antag is also bannable.

[Saegrimr]

If you want to get super technical about it, what laws?
"LAW SYNCHRONISATION ERROR" would likely mean you aren't a part of that AI's laws anymore.

But it doesn't matter now anyway. Logically and in-code you were subverted the moment I pointed out in your screenshot. The flavor text is just that, but thats too much !FUN! apparently.

[Dorsidwarf]

I also agree that while the engaging flavor text is fun, the idea of not informing the borg that it's subverted for 6 seconds after it's made syndicate and logged is retarded.

[Saegrimr]

The proposed idea here is to stun the borg now for the duration of the emag, which sounds better than removing the flavor text. Speaking of removing i'll hop on here in a minute and remove the jobban.

[Dorsidwarf]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/issues/5587/

[Pandarsenic]

Technically you can't be expected to follow your new laws until you get them, but that shouldn't mean you go for "EVERYONE I'M BEING EMAGGED" or "GOTTA FINISH HIM OFF BEFORE THE LAWS ARE IN" - though the PR is fixing this. The ban should probably be lifted nonetheless.

[Hibbles]

Saeg, I'm not thrilled with the tone you took towards this whole situation.

I don't recall if we've talked about this before or not, but that's an ongoing situation too.