[Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

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throwaway0618
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[Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by throwaway0618 » #449513

Byond account and character name: AnalWerewolf - Random name
Banning admin: Optimumtact
Ban type: Jobban - Wizard
Ban reason and length: Banned from wizard - Suicide at roundstart
Time ban was placed: 26/10/2018 10:00:46 Server time
Server you were playing when banned: Bagil

Your side of the story:
I was trying to beat my WR any% tooless SS13 Wizard antag speedrun in preparation for AGDQ 2019 when this BADMIN banned me for suiciding round start which is a proven strategy among SS13 wizard any% speedrunners like myself and as such is currently the meta among every runner.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
Okay for real though, the policy thread is still open https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=20036 and as of right now, no official head admin rulings have been made. Additionally, general consensus among current in-game admins seems to be that suiciding as wizard should be allowed and that it is entirely harmless, I agree with this sentiment, as all I did was re roll the round for someone else, besides that, solo antagonists are allowed to do whatever they want, see rule 4. on the tgstation wiki.

4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.
Not only that, but another issue I have with this jobban is that the banning admin at the time was drunk and fucking around in general. I do not believe they were in the right state of mind at the time of this ban. Adding to this belief, in the above linked policy thread, the banning admin can be seen saying the following -
oranges wrote:never ban people for this, they are free to do with *their* antag choice as they please

and what's better

a round that ends 5-10 minutes it, or one that ends immediately
Additionally, they were acting very strange on the server. Playing lewd audio and misspelling quite a lot.
Spoiler:
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Jordie0608
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by Jordie0608 » #449545

This ban is silly. I've lifted it.

In the future however try instead of suiciding ask for an admin to replace you, or just disable wizard if you don't want to play it.
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throwaway0618
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by throwaway0618 » #449570

Jordie0608 wrote:This ban is silly. I've lifted it.

In the future however try instead of suiciding ask for an admin to replace you, or just disable wizard if you don't want to play it.
The note is still there, can you change or remove it perhaps?
Thanks, by the way. It is indeed silly. Although not everyone thinks that and there seems to be quite a divide. We'll have to see what the headmins think of it in the policy thread.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by oranges » #449665

This ban should be reapplied? How on earth does jordie have the right to lift my ban without speaking to me?

This guy does nothing but suicide as wizard, he clearly does not want to play as the wizard.

I was 100% clearheaded when placing this ban and it's under rule 1 which trumps rule 4 and yeah, I changed my mind on banning wizards on this because I saw you doing it and your stated reasons, and I thought they were shit.


He is being a cunt and making people go through the 3 minute roundstart just so he can show how cool and ironic and detached he is.
Last edited by oranges on Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by oranges » #449675

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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by oranges » #449680

there was a second wizard round right after, and it was played out normally by a player with 22 hours, which honestly is more than can be said for anal's little ironic crusade.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by Jordie0608 » #449716

I lifted the ban as when it was made, as currently, suiciding as a wizard is not against the rules so it shouldn't've been made.
There is ongoing discussion in policy and adminbus about if this will remain the case but regardless of outcome it won't be retroactive.
throwaway0618 wrote:The note is still there, can you change or remove it perhaps?
I'm leaving the note as it's still valid; you did suicide at roundstart as wizard.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by oranges » #449737

I'm frustrated as to why you think that is appropriate jordie

1) it's nearly unprecedented for a gamemaster to overturn another admins ban without consulting them first or waiting for a headadmin.

2) they are banned because of a rule 1 violation, which may I remind you, explicitly is there to allow us to ignore the rest of the rules if we think someone is acting in bad faith (including rule 4)

Anal werewolf is 100% acting in bad faith. They have zero intention of playing wizard normally and are only doing it to suicide because that gets them the (you)'s I have no idea why you would defend or enable this behaviour.

They deserve the jobban and given that they don't play wizard normally I have no idea why you would even care enough to act out like this.

There is absolutely zero of interest of value to our community to continue to allow people to do this, it does not add to the experience in a meaningful way and in the long term will simply piss more people off. I am simply acting to cut this behaviour off ahead of the curve.

actually playing the wizard round can lead to what might actually be a fun or interesting round for people, it doesn't happen every time but it does happen, suicide at roundstart gives nobody that chance, and is only focused on yourself, it adds zero to our game, you should not be defending that behavior, even if the headadmins haven't spoken publicly about it or there is no precedent on it yet.

Engage your fucking brain and apply some common sense.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by throwaway0618 » #449753

oranges wrote:I'm frustrated as to why you think that is appropriate jordie
- SNIP -
Oranges, you are basing this entirely on assumptions, I am not acting in bad faith, I am doing this because it's entertaining, is a well established thing within the community, and is entirely harmless. Think for a second here, all I am doing is delaying another round for another three minutes or so, is that really something to ban based on? Besides that, it frees up another roll for another person to potentially get wizard, or perhaps something even better.
Those complaining about not getting wizard rounds for some obscene length of time are flat out lying, just this week I have gotten roll after roll of wizard, even after being jobbanned from it for a day. It's not some special once a week thing someone gets to roll and it certainly doesn't matter if I waste my roll doing something that I find enjoyable. You cannot force players to enjoy the game the way you think it should be enjoyed, antagonists can do whatever the hell they want barring the obvious, and that's a reason I believe most people play this server rather than the others.

http://puu.sh/BREL7/dafdb10f88.png
http://puu.sh/BREMd/f5a4f68c55.png

I thoroughly enjoy wizard, it's one of my favorite roles to play, who are you to prevent me from playing said role within established rules?
And hey, whats worse, a player delaying the next for three minutes, or an admin fucking around and causing a three day long controversy over something harmless and within rules?
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by oranges » #449758

there wouldn't have been any serious controversy over this had jordie not intervened, but that is irrelevant to the question at hand, admins banning people may cause some kerfuffle but that is expected, and has no bearing on this ban.

I don't agree that what you are doing is entertaining, it has shock value at best, and that value will wear thin very quickly, second If you truly cared about freeing up the roll, you would not actually be rolling yourself, so that argument doesn't scan at all. It's like saying, I don't enjoy murder, I prefer to keep people alive, while still murdering people because "you enjoy it" and "I can do it". It's very strange to me that you assert you enjoy playing wizard and then also suicide immediately at roundstart every time you get wizard. You can't have it both ways.

For your remaining assertion, as an admin all I do is police how people enjoy this game, according to a rough community consensus and the will of the headadmins and team and in this case, how you play or enjoy playing wizard is something I believe will be detrimental to the community so I stepped in and enforced on it.

You've posted my comments from discord and yes, if you committed to not doing it I would happily unban you (bearing in mind the ban is currently lifted), unfortunately we didn't get to have that conversation before other people poked their nose in.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by Jordie0608 » #449764

oranges wrote:1) it's nearly unprecedented for a gamemaster to overturn another admins ban without consulting them first or waiting for a headadmin.
I've parsed through the ban table data MSO gave me back in august. Between then and the start of December 2017 there's 20 times in which a ban has been lifted by an admin who didn't place it that as far as I could tell was not done with the explicit permission of the banning admin or any headmin. 12 of these times are from a GameMaster. The rest from a Game or TrialAdmins. I'm sure were I to continue going back I would find more instances of both occuring. I know myself I have lifted the bans of other admins like this and had the same done to me in the past.
Here is the data I found: https://file.house/ClEX.ods
There may be some mistakes, I wasn't able to find a ban appeals thread for all of these bans. Either because there isn't one or I just couldn't locate it.

As far as I'm aware there's no prohibition against a GameMaster overturning another admin's ban. Per https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct
Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins can intervene however, usually in the case of full admins helping out a new trialmin.
oranges wrote:2) they are banned because of a rule 1 violation, which may I remind you, explicitly is there to allow us to ignore the rest of the rules if we think someone is acting in bad faith (including rule 4)
...
As said elsewhere, I disagree with this. I don't believe it warrants a ban. It's not against existing rules or precedent. There's no declaration from Headmins in the ongoing thread regarding the matter nor is there from past. Hence why I lifted the ban.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by oranges » #449769

It's not prohibited it's just usually not done for obvious reasons jordie, and you know that, that's explicitly why the wiki calls the case of helping trialmins as the usual case.

This case absolutely does not warrant you interceding, and I would appreciate if the headadmins told you to step off my case and not abuse that power. You're flexing a rarely used power because you disagree with my ruling, instead of following the process like everyone else.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by throwaway0618 » #449771

Jordie0608 wrote:
oranges wrote:1) it's nearly unprecedented for a gamemaster to overturn another admins ban without consulting them first or waiting for a headadmin.
I've parsed through the ban table data MSO gave me back in august. Between then and the start of December 2017 there's 20 times in which a ban has been lifted by an admin who didn't place it that as far as I could tell was not done with the explicit permission of the banning admin or any headmin. 12 of these times are from a GameMaster. The rest from a Game or TrialAdmins. I'm sure were I to continue going back I would find more instances of both occuring. I know myself I have lifted the bans of other admins like this and had the same done to me in the past.

- SNIP -
Based.
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Re: [Optimumtact] AnalWerewolf - Suicide Wizard

Post by Nervere » #449902

I'm going to be reapplying this ban. Players who use their antagonist roll as a wizard to simply kill themselves and end the round immediately have become quite a nuisance recently. Someone gets wizard, they kill themselves, and force everyone to wait for another five minutes just to play the game. It's annoying to everyone else on the server, and it's really not funny to anyone but the person doing it. This falls under rule 1, don't be a dick. Antagonists are typically exempted from this as per rule 4, but there's two things at play here. Firstly, this is an IC protection - being a dick OOC by ending the round for everyone immediately isn't covered by rule 4, and you can still be punished for something like this. Secondly, oranges is right in his interpretation that rule 1 is more important than other rules. This line of reasoning should be used sparingly, however, as overuse would weaken the scope of the rest of the rules. I don't disagree with how it was used here, though. Any player who suicides roundstart as a wizard can expect to be met with a permanent wizard jobban. If you would not like to play as a wizard, simply turn off the preference in your settings, or send an adminhelp and ask to have someone else take your place.

To Jordie: you shouldn't have interfered with this ban. Removing another admin's ban without even talking with them about it is disrespectful and poor conduct.
In the past, we have allowed GameAdmins and above to overrule TrialAdmin bans, but that's about it, and even then, it's expected of you to talk to the admin first. There's absolutely no reason to go over oranges' head and repeal this without a conversation or his prior approval. To that effect, the headmin team has decided to end the practice of admins overruling each other on their bans, regardless of rank. If you see another admin's ban and believe that it should be overturned, speak with the HeadAdmins about it, or speak to the bannning admin directly and get their permission before lifting the ban, even if they are a TrialAdmin. Admins of senior ranks are still permitted and encouraged to advise/guide other admins, but overruling of any bans now falls to the HeadAdmins.

The relevant portion of the Admin Conduct page, seen below:
Admin Conduct Rules wrote:Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins can intervene however, usually in the case of full admins helping out a new trialmin.
Will be changed to:
Admin Conduct Rules wrote:Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins are encouraged to advise and guide other admins, but overruling someone else's ban falls to the headmins.
EDIT: Actually, I'm going to lift this ban specifically. There was some precedent in the past for not banning for this, so it's not fair to ban you for something that was historically not punished for. However, future instances of this behavior will result in a ban.
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