[KangTut] KillToSurvive - Note Appeal

[KillToSurvive]

Byond account and character name: KillToSurvive/Justin Time
Banning admin: KangTut
Ban type (What are you banned from?): It's a note
Ban reason and length: 2018-11-08 05:43:35 | Bagil | KangTut
Beat and perma'd an assistant who hit him by mistake. The assistant claims they were just trying to disarm him, but Kill assumed that because they attacked him once that he got to treat them like an antag. He locked the assistant in perma while he was still bleeding, and came back multiple times to taunt and attack the prisoner.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2018-11-08 05:43:35
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: Wall of text below
Why you think you should be unbanned: Wall of text below

ROUND ID: 96763




This note seems very very unfair to me as I have a feeling KangTut did not take a look at the logs properly, first I will tell my side of the story, then the other players story that I heard from KangTut, because KangTut seems to be taking sides in who to believe.

My side of the story:
The assistant was chasing after me and managed to smash my head in with a toolbox once, I ran from him and he was still chasing me, now I'm not sure if walking/running positions are recorded in the logs, but when I pulled my taser out he immediately began running away from me. I disabled him with a taser and them took him to the brig to ask the warden for a sentence, I told the warden that it was assault and if It's ok if I perma him. The warden agreed, I took him to perma and abused him a little for a laugh since antag behavior makes you antag and antags can be abused.

Other players side of the story according to KangTut:
Apparently the assistant tried to disarm me instead of smashing my head in with a toolbox, the assistant also said that it was an "accident" to smash my head in with a toolbox, so was disarming me also going to be an accident? I don't see how in the world that's an accident, this totally validates him and makes him an antag because of this:
1) The toolbox has a chance to knock you out, which could have happened and then he'd likely have proceeded to beat me and steal my stuff.
2) He could have disarmed me and as I was on the floor he could have tablestunned me as I was near engineering and there was a table nearby, ultimately resulting in me getting fucked over.

General information:
Kangtut claims that this isn't antag behavior. I disagree, because of reason 1) and 2). The abusing/permaing part is self-explanatory, the assistant is qualifed for antag behavior and in so can be abused.

Either way, that assistant is a classic greytiding shitler. Attack officer > Get Perma'd > Cry to the admins. Why in the world do I need to get a note for this? If the assistant wants to start fights that are antag behavior, then it's valid for me to perma him or even space him if i'd like. There's literally no reason to hit a sec officer. He literally didn't even apologize to me ICly that it was an accident. Because it wasn't. When I was arresting him and he was in the brig, he said: Russel Krieger says, "I'm still gonna donk on you". And that was BEFORE I perma'd him, that was when I was asking the warden what sentence to give him, the screenshots I attached prove it. An accident after he said that right there?

I don't believe that this was an accident. "Accidentaly" hitting me with a toolbox can knock me out. "Accidentaly" disarming me is self-explanatory and has multiple ways to get me killed.

This is antag behavior, the abuse in perma is justified. Anyways I feel like I've been wronged by that assistant guy and KangTut seemed to have sided with the assistant because in his view an officer being assaulted somehow isn't antag behavior. Take my word, the assistant attacked me intentionally, then lied to KangTut saying it was an "accident". For this sole reason I will start recording my rounds with OBS from now on and I do hope to get this note appealed.

Proof it was no accident:
https://gyazo.com/22d9feaa9b4bb359e079fc3339b824aa check this one first
https://gyazo.com/c34cf126d356ae7da02d5f9401858ece check this one second

Not to mention the assistant had a FLASH on him. (I searched his bag). When I asked him to explain the reason he assaulted me he said he was "helping his cargo bro". This is no accident.

I argued quite a lot in the ahelps with KangTut, his opinion seems hellbent that it wasn't antag behavior. KangTut also dismissed the fact that the assistant lied to him as I've shown solid proof that it was indeed no accident, lying to admins is a no-no, yes? Opinions of other admins would be much appreciated on this situation. I don't want a note over a prick being a greyshit and then crying to the admin for help when they get what they deserve. Kangtut also did not take a look at the logs at all when I was ahelping with him.

This was said: Russel Krieger says, "I'm still gonna donk on you"

KangTut claimed that it was said after he got perma'd.
I scrolled up and took a screenshot where he said that before he was perma'd, he said it as i was asking the warden for the sentence, check time timestamps in the logs yourself for more proof, furthermore proving that KangTut took no effort in researching the situation before sticking the note to me.

[Dax Dupont]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44
Please use the format or the appeal will be denied automatically.

Also link the round logs please if you're using logs screenshots or otherwise

[Kangtut]

You say I misinterpreted you but you seem to be doing the same for me. No where did I say that this wasn't antag behavior. What I said was that your response to it was over the line. He should have been brigged, but not put in perma after you beat him and left him in there to bleed out. As you've said in ahelps you assumed that because he was doing some self antagging (antag behavior in your words) that, that allowed him to be treated as an antag.

11/8/2018
Round ID: 96763

06:27:21: Reply PM from-KillToSurvive/(Justin Time): Again, antag behavior.
06:27:27: Reply PM from-KillToSurvive/(Justin Time): No escalation.
06:27:36: Reply PM from-KillToSurvive/(Justin Time): Antag behavior lets me do anything I want to them.

This is not the case. You had no evidence to confirm that he was a traitor/ling or anything and as such you should have treated this like a normal crew member - meaning he gets reasonable brig time for his crime. His crime was hitting you once, which he claims was by accident. His intent and his story he gave me seemed plausible and considering the things he claimed you were doing to him were also true (returning to his perma cell to taze and taunt him) then I was more inclined to believe him.

Also no where in the original ahelp did you bring Kreiger's words about donking you up until after you had posted this appeal. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop flinging insults because I didn't look into something that no one decided to bring to my attention and overall still has no relevance on the note in question. Kreiger clearly intended to harass you, but not to harm you - he even said so himself in his ahelp to me

05:34:50: PM From KangTut/(Fred Best): Yeah that's dumb. I'll talk with him. Did you hit him on purpose?
05:35:24: Reply PM from-FishoftheDerp/(Russel Krieger): truth be told it was meant to be a disarm, didn't see which arm equipped but for all intents yes.

The point of this note, as I've already said, is that you took your security power too far and sought to remove someone from the round over a mild crime. You didn't even let him go into the proper perma holding area, you closed the shutters on him and forced him to stay in his cell.

You abused your sec position and my decision on this note remains the same.

[elyina]

Please wait until the round is over before posting an appeal, it's considered IC in OOC to do otherwise. This thread was hidden temporarily until the round finished.

[KillToSurvive]

Your decision on this note remains the same, I proved it wasn't an accident, you didn't edit my note at all, you just left it like that, stating in the note it still was an accident. I even asked you in ahelp to edit it for now and got ignored for it. Anyways I'm trying to figure out how to make an admin complaint since it's taken more seriously there.

You even dismissed the fact that Russel Krieger lied to you after I proved that it was no accident.

You said that the assistant said this when he was in perma already: Russel Krieger says, "I'm still gonna donk on you"
I proved that he said it before he was in perma.

Question, why are you assuming stuff without even checking the logs?

And I still quite believe it qualifies as antag behavior, but I'll wait for another admins opinion.

[Kangtut]

I proved that he said it before he was in perma.
Question, why are you assuming stuff without even checking the logs?

Yes that was my mistake and I'm sorry. It still doesn't make the statement any less irrelevant. You're trying to argue that because he said this one thing that he meant to hit you which I already showed you in the logs that his intent and his story adds up. He did mean to disarm you and harass you as most grey tide tend to do to sec but jumping straight to perma and leaving him to die because you are taking rule 4 to the extreme is not the correct response. He was not a lone antag he was just a tider. Rules 1 still applies in this case.

Perma brig is a round removal and only reserved for extreme situations. Had Kreiger continued to harass sec then you could have eventually put him in there and been as much of an ass to him as you wanted. However, you do not get to to that for one small offense. That is the point of this note and you arguing about whether he hit you on accident or not is not going to change the fact that your response to it was too much.

[KillToSurvive]

"arguing about whether he hit you on accident or not"

You're so professional, are you literally blind? I've shown you proof it wasn't an accident.

And the note STILL says it was an accident, you ever gonna edit it? Because the proof that it was intentional is right there.

--------------------

"Im still gonna donk on you" <---- CLEARLY signifies he means to continue his INITIAL assault, hence why "still" is in it.

Explain why you assaulted me? "Helping my cargo bro"

And what his intent was is completely irrelevant. You can hit someone with a toolbox even if the intent is green and then lie about it saying you tried to hug them or something.

--------------------

Are you even reading this thread at all or...?

As for the antag behavior I will wait for opinions from other admins.

[lmwevil]

As for the antag behavior I will wait for opinions from other admins.

the only admin opinions that matter if you cannot resolve this with Kang is the head administrators agreeing to overrule, any other party is irrelevant for the most part


EDIT: Making a complaint because the ban appeal thread isn't going how you want is poor form and reflects negatively on you

[KillToSurvive]

An admin told me to make a complaint. So I did. And I'm quite sure I can make a complaint either way due to the poorly conducted note addition of KangTut.

Whether I win this appeal or not is entirely irrelevant to the complaint. The complaint is about how poorly he handled the situation entirely.

[Arianya]

Denied.

We give security a high degree of freedom in how they deal with crime, but there are still limits. The "act like an antag, get treated like one" rule covers cases where even though someone isn't an antagonist, their behaviour is so indistinguishable from one that it'd be unfair to players to expect them to avoid treating them as their actions imply just because there's no confirmation of antagonist status. This can be extreme crimes (breaking into the armory, theft of lethal weaponry, etc), but hitting a security officer with a toolbox once doesn't meet this requirement.

Random abuse and permabrigging isn't accepted behaviour from Security unless the person in question would otherwise be eligible for execution. I fail to see how this person could reasonably thought to have committed a capital crime off this.

The arguing over the comment made at the point when you were trying to get someone permabrigged for minor assault is irrelevant really. People say things out of anger or disbelief when they feel hard done by, which I can certainly understand in this instance.

I don't see anything in this note that is materially untrue (I know you will disagree, but that's how the cookie crumbles some times) and I don't see anything in this note that is grossly unfair to how other administrators will see you as a player.

While you will most likely be disappointed by this, I'll point out that this is only a note, and that it by no means means your time playing on /tg/ or even in security is over. Treat it as a learning experience and refine your understanding of how security is expected to act.

Any other headmin may post.