[TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

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Istoprocent1
 
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[TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:25 am #465246

Byond account and character name: istoprocent / Krokodil
Banning admin: TheMidnightRose
Ban type (What are you banned from?): 1 day ban + 7 day sec ban
Ban reason and length: For cremating an assistant that gave all access to themselves after recovering the Captain's spare.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2018-12-28 02:06:17
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil - BanID#36565 and Round 99339
Your side of the story: I was playing the detective. Using my camera console I saw a bunch of people break into the Teleporter Room. The teleporter was activated and the next location I checked was Bridge - Command Chair (Delta). Out of there popped Mike Murdock, The Mime, Janice and some others. The Mime proceeded to bash the Comms Console, while the rest headed toward's Captain's Office. A few moments passed and I switched to Captain's Quarters, saw Janice the engineer, not an assistant as the banning admin claims take Captain's Spare (capital crime, eligible for execution). Some time passed and I was chasing the individuals for their crimes. I came accross Janice who dropped the Captain's Spare at Thomas Laser's feet near the arrivals. She managed to elude me, but eventually I caught her in the chapel, where I headed to cremate The Mime for (being a cult and Grand Sabotage). I cremated Janice, which was my right as a player.
Why you think you should be unbanned: The banning admin was in the wrong. He tried to back out from banning anybody, because I brought up that Janice ahelping a situation where she acted like an antag would be considered ban baiting. Janice was not a part of the cult and by stealing the spare (committing capital crime while being a non-antag), she acted like an antag.
4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.
7. If you regularly come close to breaking the rules without actually breaking them, it will be treated as the rules being broken.
Repeated instances of the same rules being broken may be met with harsher consequences. Baiting people into situations where you can report them to admins will be dealt with harshly.

Edit: Added the 7 day sec ban, which escaped me.
Last edited by Istoprocent1 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.



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lmwevil
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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby lmwevil » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:43 am #465254

while not directly involved i was on at the time, there was discussion in adminbus and a conclusion was drawn

additionally i hear every round you play detective people complaining in dchat at your conduct as detective, while this isn't entirely related to the appeal it's something to be noted and that you could improve on overall

edit: you also have a week sec ban

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:48 am #465259

lmwevil wrote:while not directly involved i was on at the time, there was discussion in adminbus and a conclusion was drawn

additionally i hear every round you play detective people complaining in dchat at your conduct as detective, while this isn't entirely related to the appeal it's something to be noted and that you could improve on overall

edit: you also have a week sec ban


People love to complain, especially if they are getting outplayed - ie. caught by using cameras or in combat. "Shitty detective shot at me!!!" - lets forget about you breaking into cap's and stealing hand teleporter et cetera. I have played it by the book and done nothing wrong.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby TheMidnghtRose » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:49 am #465260

For one, while we are trying to get the RP of the server up, space law is still just a suggestion to improve security, two, space law also says that the DETECTIVE is not allowed to summary execute or even sentence people unless they are the only security staff alive/on station, third the ban actually is a Day ban and a Week sec ban.

At first I was going to let you go on a note since you had no previous notes on this, but I was informed that this wasn't the first time that you did things similar to this so I bumped it up to learn more. When the adminbus confirmed what I was hearing I gave you both the Day and Sec ban and informed you of both right before applying them.
Emerald Gleaner -Miner/Viro/QM/HoP/Medical/Slime Breeder/Robo

Trial Review is here! https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=21378

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:53 am #465262

TheMidnghtRose wrote:For one, while we are trying to get the RP of the server up, space law is still just a suggestion to improve security, two, space law also says that the DETECTIVE is not allowed to summary execute or even sentence people unless they are the only security staff alive/on station, third the ban actually is a Day ban and a Week sec ban.

At first I was going to let you go on a note since you had no previous notes on this, but I was informed that this wasn't the first time that you did things similar to this so I bumped it up to learn more. When the adminbus confirmed what I was hearing I gave you both the Day and Sec ban and informed you of both right before applying them.


Your story should be reflected in the rules. Coming up with random rules on the spot, which apply to specific players and not others should not be tolerated. If people can kill anybody for minor reasons, then there should not be any problems with people dying due to committing capital crimes. Rule 4 is clear.

What is this RP you are talking about, if you justify an engineer tiding? That being said I have been RP friendlier than most.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby coiax » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:58 am #465268

Admin logs to/from Istoprocent. Not included was a discussion between Istoprocent and MortoSasye about a previous round's ticket.

Admin link to the raw logs.
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/basil/data/logs/2018/12/28/round-99339/game.log

Code: Select all
[2018-12-28 01:45:47.436] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Hello, what happened between you and Janice Lean.
[2018-12-28 01:46:38.684] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Janice broke into the brig and captains at round start, stole captain's spare, dropped it at Thomas Lasers feet at some point, caught Janice she had given herself all access anyway, Grand Theft, Cremated.
[2018-12-28 01:47:28.394] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Rule 4 - act like an antag, get treated like an antag.#Since Janice ahelped it, she might be ban baiting.
[2018-12-28 01:50:12.383] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Did you get approval to execute them? Did you discuss it with your fellow Sec?
[2018-12-28 01:51:05.194] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): We are not playing on Yog. Nobody needs any approval. Rule 4 says that anybody can do anything to the antags. She had committed a capital crime, so she was eligible for an execution.
[2018-12-28 01:52:26.168] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): I want to point out that excessive tiding (such as committing capital crimes without being an antag) and ahelping situation, where you have done something (ban baiting). Are against the rules and Janice should be punished for it.
[2018-12-28 01:54:33.210] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): I am going to let this drop, mainly due to neither of you being in the right, them for the crime and you for the straight execution. Only a head of staff can do executions or Security when approved by a Head of Staff, preferably the HoS.
[2018-12-28 01:54:54.119] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Dont let this drop. Janice needs to be punished for ban baiting.
[2018-12-28 01:55:31.492] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Anybody can valid anyone who is valid, thats why we have Rule 4. And sec is no exception.
[2018-12-28 01:56:47.492] ADMIN: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner) checked the individual player panel for Istoprocent/(Krokodil).
[2018-12-28 01:57:29.780] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): False reports and excessive tiding is what we should be trying to abolish from the server.
[2018-12-28 02:00:18.791] ADMIN: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner) checked the individual player panel for Istoprocent/(Krokodil).
[2018-12-28 02:05:08.705] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Looking into it further and discussing it on the Adminbus, you will be getting a day ban from the server and a week ban from Sec. This is due to you going straight to 11 and cremating, which is permenant round removal for stealing the spare.
[2018-12-28 02:05:28.052] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): I will take it to the forums.
[2018-12-28 02:06:17.052] ADMINPRIVATE: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner) has created a temporary 1440 minutes server ban for Istoprocent.
[2018-12-28 02:06:40.034] ADMINPRIVATE: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner) has created a temporary 7 days role ban from 4 roles for Istoprocent. Roles: Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer


EDIT: Removed part of an asay conversation between admins, which I edited out because it wasn't complete.
EDIT 2: Added admin link to raw logs.
Last edited by coiax on Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Gigapuddi420
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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:01 am #465270

Typically theft alone isn't enough to be classified as 'antagonistic'. Through your logic officers can kill and cremate anyone they see committing theft. We have higher standards for people playing security then we do for random assistants. Assistants don't care about space law so when one assistant steals all access the other assistant doesn't immediately get a green light to murder the other assistant; usually there has to be some kind of escalation in play or confirmation the thief is an antagonist (like traitor items). That said maybe you're lucky this happened on a cult round as cult rounds tend to relax things a bit, though it doesn't sound like you killed them for cult, rather you killed them because you thought they were a criminal and should be executed. Executed by the fucking detective no less.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:02 am #465271

Gigapuddi420 wrote:Typically theft alone isn't enough to be classified as 'antagonistic'. Through your logic officers can kill and cremate anyone they see committing theft. We have higher standards for people playing security then we do for random assistants. Assistants don't care about space law so when one assistant steals all access the other assistant doesn't immediately get a green light to murder the other assistant; usually there has to be some kind of escalation in play or confirmation the theft is antagonistic. That said maybe you're lucky this happened on a cult round as cult rounds tend to relax things a bit, though it doesn't sound like you killed them for cult, rather you killed them because you thought they were a criminal and should be executed. Executed by the fucking detective no less.


Is this a peanut post? She committed a Capital Crime of Grand Theft not Petty Theft or Theft.

Grand Theft
To steal items of high value or sensitive nature. Syndicate agents frequently attempt to steal cutting-edge technology. Examples include: intelligence or research samples, the Hand Teleporter, the Captain's Antique Laser,the Captain or the HoP's ID cards, or Mechs.

This is by no means a exhaustive list of items that are high value to the syndicate; when in doubt use common sense when you see certain items that are stolen that can cause massive problems throughout the station. Remember if something is locked up in a secure area it probably should not be taken without prior permission.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:04 am #465273

If security isn't allowed to use space law to defend themselves from bans them admins shouldn't be allowed to use space law to create bans. It is a suggestion and has been for as long as I've been playing, and it shouldn't have an effect on bans. Someone who steals the captain's spare is valid because that's about as antaggy as you can get without going on a murder spree, and under rule 4, those who act like antagonists can be treated as such.

edit: I'd also like to add that based off of Istoprocent's story, it sounds like Janice was distributing all access to others, which is 10x worse than taking it for herself.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

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Spoiler:
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DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby MortoSasye » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:13 am #465275

Let's clear something up, shall we?

You're a detective on this round. To start with, the detective should be investigating crime scenes and not acting as a security officer, but this isn't something we tend to reinforce that much (Which in my opinion is bad but that's besides the point).

When you detain Janice for having all access, you inmediately go and cremate them. The reason why this was wrong was due to multiple things:

1. Because you were not the captain, warden or the head of security to decide who to execute, neither asked any of these positions for authorization to do so.
2. You're a detective, your job isn't to execute people or even arrest them, your job is to investigate crime scenes. If you want to play as a head of security then play as one and not as a detective.
3. Cremating someone for having all access is extremely excessive, specially considering everyone had access by that point in the round. You admitted yourself that you cremated them for this reason, and not even because you suspected they were a cultist.

If someone had done this to you, you would have ahelped too. The rule you broke was rule 1 which is above the others. Greytide is bad, i won't deny that, but cremating people for greytiding isn't the correct way to fix it.

You have a heavy history of abusing your role as detective, and this time you went too far. I will leave you with this part of the security policy https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Security_Policy_.26_Precedents:

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.
Bella Rouge here, and yes it is not Rogue, or Rose.
Please leave your feedback here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=20661
I wake up.
I see my good friend, Dick Suckery, and I say hello to him. Kind guy, nice to his wife and kids.
But then I see him: Good Goodman. Outrageous. I am so upset, I punch the wall instead of my boyfriend in front of him (because I'm not a violent person). I make it my life reason to destroy him. He will not disrespect me anymore.
I ban his name. I can sleep again. I hate players.

Spoiler:
Fikou wrote:The problem is that the autistic fucking admins on these SS13 servers, so drunk with power, so intoxicated on the scent of their sweaty ballsacks as they drown in 'decision making' and 'responsibility', things they've never had before, hand out permabans for next to nothing. Why not a 3 month ban? Why not a 6 month ban? No. A fucking perma ban. Nevermind that people change, nevermind that people have shitty days or good days, nevermind that FOREVER IS A FUCKING LONG TIME, no... Permabans. And then they expect you to appeal on the forums so they can have MORE POWER, MORE DECISION MAKING. "HOO HOO, LOOKIT ME MOMMY, I GET TO DECIDE THE FATE OF THIS MAN HOOOO HOOOOOO WOWEEE SO EXCITE, MY LITTLE WINKY WILLY IS GETTING CHUB-CHUB, MOMMY." And let's be fucking absolutely real here, the only reason admins want people to sign up for the fucking forums to fucking ban appeal is so they can sell the members e-mails to, like, Chinese realtors or some shit.


07:43:57: -/(-): Law cant touch me, your gay ass game admin shit will never affect me emotionally or physically. My life sucks more than your le epic gamer power ever will. PenterWad is gay, your mom gay, yeet.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:24 am #465280

You were the one asking if TheMidnightRose really let Istoprocent go in asay. Lets pretend you don't have any vested interest in this matter.

MortoSasye wrote:Let's clear something up, shall we?

You're a detective on this round. To start with, the detective should be investigating crime scenes and not acting as a security officer, but this isn't something we tend to reinforce that much (Which in my opinion is bad but that's besides the point).


You are correct. I was the detective and I investigated the crime, which was a bunch of people breaking into places where they shouldnt have.

MortoSasye wrote:When you detain Janice for having all access, you inmediately go and cremate them. The reason why this was wrong was due to multiple things:

1. Because you were not the captain, warden or the head of security to decide who to execute, neither asked any of these positions for authorization to do so.
2. You're a detective, your job isn't to execute people or even arrest them, your job is to investigate crime scenes. If you want to play as a head of security then play as one and not as a detective.
3. Cremating someone for having all access is extremely excessive, specially considering everyone had access by that point in the round. You admitted yourself that you cremated them for this reason, and not even because you suspected they were a cultist.


Lets downplay Janice's crimes and pretend that I didn't see things happen live. Lets also say that Janice got cremated just for having All Access and forget about Major Tresspass and Capital Crimes. I did not suspect Janice being a cultist, I knew Janice had committed crimes via my detection skills.

MortoSasye wrote:If someone had done this to you, you would have ahelped to. The rule you broke was rule 1 which is above the others. Greytide is bad, i won't deny that, but cremating people for greytiding isn't the correct way to fix it.

You have a heavy history of abusing your role as detective, and this time you went too far. I will leave you with this part of the security policy https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Security_Policy_.26_Precedents:

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.


Janice was captured alive using least lethal methods, which happened to be a Riot Shotgun using Rubbershot as my taser probably was empty at that time. Followed by stun baton on helpful intent.

All this talk about only doing one's job means that assistant mains should be long banned as some just balantly validhunt and kill on sight most of the time. Rule changes need to come first so everybody is on an equal playing field, not punishing players selectively because "we are thinking about X".

I am hoping to see this unjustban and notes turned and applied to Janice for Ban Baiting as she was not doing her job as an engineer and just being a tiding dick (Rule 1) instead.

Edit: Since you brought up the Precedents.

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. (griefing security)
Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security. (janice broke into caps round start without a legitimate IC justification, thats long before the capital crime of Grant Theft, so she was double valid)

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby MortoSasye » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:58 am #465290

I mentioned if they were really going to let you go because what you did was incredibly unfair to the player.

Based on the logic you're explaining here, we should allow low ranks of security to execute greytiders on the spot just because they may be traitors. You don't know either how they got the captain spare id, maybe it was a gift from another assistant that did break inside the captain office.

I mentioned the precedent 1 of security because you jumped straight to cremating them instead of brigging or asking a high rank for permission to execute them. Honestly i won't explain further since it would be repeating myself, and i know you won't care until a headmin comes and repeats the same thing to you.
Bella Rouge here, and yes it is not Rogue, or Rose.
Please leave your feedback here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=20661
I wake up.
I see my good friend, Dick Suckery, and I say hello to him. Kind guy, nice to his wife and kids.
But then I see him: Good Goodman. Outrageous. I am so upset, I punch the wall instead of my boyfriend in front of him (because I'm not a violent person). I make it my life reason to destroy him. He will not disrespect me anymore.
I ban his name. I can sleep again. I hate players.

Spoiler:
Fikou wrote:The problem is that the autistic fucking admins on these SS13 servers, so drunk with power, so intoxicated on the scent of their sweaty ballsacks as they drown in 'decision making' and 'responsibility', things they've never had before, hand out permabans for next to nothing. Why not a 3 month ban? Why not a 6 month ban? No. A fucking perma ban. Nevermind that people change, nevermind that people have shitty days or good days, nevermind that FOREVER IS A FUCKING LONG TIME, no... Permabans. And then they expect you to appeal on the forums so they can have MORE POWER, MORE DECISION MAKING. "HOO HOO, LOOKIT ME MOMMY, I GET TO DECIDE THE FATE OF THIS MAN HOOOO HOOOOOO WOWEEE SO EXCITE, MY LITTLE WINKY WILLY IS GETTING CHUB-CHUB, MOMMY." And let's be fucking absolutely real here, the only reason admins want people to sign up for the fucking forums to fucking ban appeal is so they can sell the members e-mails to, like, Chinese realtors or some shit.


07:43:57: -/(-): Law cant touch me, your gay ass game admin shit will never affect me emotionally or physically. My life sucks more than your le epic gamer power ever will. PenterWad is gay, your mom gay, yeet.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:00 am #465294

MortoSasye wrote:You have a heavy history of abusing your role as detective, and this time you went too far. I will leave you with this part of the security policy https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Security_Policy_.26_Precedents:

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

What heavy history? I see nothing in his notes.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day

Click here to make incoherent rants about my badminning.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:03 am #465295

MortoSasye wrote:I mentioned if they were really going to let you go because what you did was incredibly unfair to the player.

Based on the logic you're explaining here, we should allow low ranks of security to execute greytiders on the spot just because they may be traitors. You don't know either how they got the captain spare id, maybe it was a gift from another assistant that did break inside the captain office.

I mentioned the precedent 1 of security because you jumped straight to cremating them instead of brigging or asking a high rank for permission to execute them. Honestly i won't explain further since it would be repeating myself, and i know you won't care until a headmin comes and repeats the same thing to you.


You are inserting your bias here. I have never cremated anybody for "just having 1 contraband". Janice was executed, because she was seen committing the crimes. She had no IC justification for it (when Janice was captured, cult had reached the point of glowing eyes). She was cremated for being a dick and griefing security (causing unnecessary disruption to the round for security by acting like an antag) for no IC justification, also because she was eligible for execution.

Edit: Nobody is talking about killing a guy breaking a random window. We are talking about committing capital crimes or otherwise acting antagonistcally such as repeatedly stunning sec.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby teepeepee » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:17 am #465301

MortoSasye wrote:You don't know either how they got the captain spare id, maybe it was a gift from another assistant that did break inside the captain office.

sorry if this is peanut posting but didn't he say he saw it through cameras?

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby zxaber » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:35 am #465304

The Top of the Space Law page wrote:If you cite Space Law in an adminhelp or anywhere outside IC communications, you will be laughed at.


As the rules specifically state, security "is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods" where reasonably possible. You had the engineer stunned, you were dragging her around. You presumably had cuffs. What prevented you from using the cells in the brig?

Why was the engineer stealing and giving all access to non-cult members? Possibly so they could find and fight the cult easier. We'll never know for sure; it's hard to ask a pile of ashes.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:37 am #465305

zxaber wrote:
The Top of the Space Law page wrote:If you cite Space Law in an adminhelp or anywhere outside IC communications, you will be laughed at.


As the rules specifically state, security "is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods" where reasonably possible. You had the engineer stunned, you were dragging her around. You presumably had cuffs. What prevented you from using the cells in the brig?

Why was the engineer stealing and giving all access to non-cult members? Possibly so they could find and fight the cult easier. We'll never know for sure; it's hard to ask a pile of ashes.


All of this happened long before cult was discovered, so Janice did not break into caps, "because muh cult".

Janice was detained non-lethally. She was executed, because she had committed capital crimes and was eligible for execution from multiple sources - Rule 1 Prescedent 5, Rule 4 and Space Law.

Edit: Janice was also guilty of Aiding and Abetting on multiple capital crimes (Mime destroying vital equipment such as Comm's Computer would be Grand Sabotage, Mime turning out to be a cultist would be Enemy of the Corporation) and so on.

[2018-12-28 01:18:56.692] GAME: 01:18:56.692] GAME: Anuv/(Janice Lean) has teleported from (Teleporter Room (166, 121, 2)) to (Bridge (152, 141, 2)) - Janice going to do Janice
[2018-12-28 01:25:35.848] SAY: 01:25:35.848] SAY: Hoodedhero/(Rick Rich) "cult" (Port Quarter Maintenance (125, 68, 2)) - First public CULT scream

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby zxaber » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:49 am #465306

Where is "Capital Crimes" referenced in the rules? My search function must be faulty.

I did find this, though;
Security Rule 3 wrote:The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

Specifically, "Make sure players deserve it when you treat them like an antag", and "When in doubt, err on the side of caution".
The engineer stole a non-harmful item that saves a person from cutting a wire to enter a room. Nanotrasen door security isn't exactly a gold standard. Cracking down on all access and arresting people abusing the Spare is one thing, executing via cremation with no authorization from a head of staff is another entirely.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:54 am #465307

zxaber wrote:Where is "Capital Crimes" referenced in the rules? My search function must be faulty.

I did find this, though;
Security Rule 3 wrote:The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

Specifically, "Make sure players deserve it when you treat them like an antag", and "When in doubt, err on the side of caution".
The engineer stole a non-harmful item that saves a person from cutting a wire to enter a room. Nanotrasen door security isn't exactly a gold standard. Cracking down on all access and arresting people abusing the Spare is one thing, executing via cremation with no authorization from a head of staff is another entirely.


And she deserved that on multiple accounts as I have pointed out. You are peanut posting as you probably were not involved in the situation. Put that energy to use and figure out what are these Capital Crimes people are talking about.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Nilons » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:32 am #465321

Rule 1 Precedent wrote:5. Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.

Pertinent rule stating specifically that security can execute for this

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby DrunkenMatey » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:49 am #465325

Istoprocent1, there is a difference between execution and round removal. There are many other threads where it was deemed that cremation/roundremoval was taking things too far whereas murder/execution would have been acceptable. Having a detained suspect you can brig them and seek permission to execute. If you had no way of cuffing them, critting them and taking them to sec to cuff and heal and then execute works. If you caught them in the middle of something violent and you straight up murdered them for it as you had no reliable non-lethals then fine, you could then have them morgued and see about someone with authority issuing a "do not clone" order or having the body moved/destroyed to prevent cloning. And yes, to pile on, you play detective like captain and you should stop it.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby imsxz » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:59 am #465326

Off of personal observation, people seem to whine about the resident lizard detective on bagil a fair bit, I only ever notice it from assistants and antags though.

That said, it's pretty well established that security can execute people with unauthorized all access.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Farquaar » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:16 am #465327

Given that following Space Law is being used as a defense here, it should be noted that a detective has no authority to authorize an execution under Space Law- only the Captain or acting Captain can. A detective isn't even authorized to permabrig people under Space Law.

Space Law wrote:Capital Crimes
These crimes can result in Execution, Permanent Prison Time, Permanent Labor Camp Time, or Cyborgization.
Only the Captain, HoS, and Warden can authorize a Permanent Sentence.
Only the Captain can authorize an Execution or Forced Cyborgization.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby lmwevil » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:44 am #465341

alright, not personally invested in this appeal but it's 100% true that if you break into the captain's office you are for all intents and purposes valid, dunno if that extends to cremation but i see greyshits dead all the time for it

to quote one of the headmins in discord 'that is complete shit he should be sec banned and day banned' in the end this appeal actually falls unto them given that this was their recommended course of action

additionally: ""Administrators will only intervene when you are sentenced to grossly unfair times. If you get 3 minutes instead of 2, talk to the lawyer as it's considered an IC issue. If you cite Space Law in an adminhelp or anywhere outside IC communications, you will be laughed at."" space law has never and will never be a reference other than some OOC roleplaying suggestions so i'd be hesitant to use it in any conclusive way

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:54 am #465342

lmwevil wrote:alright, not personally invested in this appeal but it's 100% true that if you break into the captain's office you are for all intents and purposes valid, dunno if that extends to cremation but i see greyshits dead all the time for it

to quote one of the headmins in discord 'that is complete shit he should be sec banned and day banned' in the end this appeal actually falls unto them given that this was their recommended course of action

additionally: ""Administrators will only intervene when you are sentenced to grossly unfair times. If you get 3 minutes instead of 2, talk to the lawyer as it's considered an IC issue. If you cite Space Law in an adminhelp or anywhere outside IC communications, you will be laughed at."" space law has never and will never be a reference other than some OOC roleplaying suggestions so i'd be hesitant to use it in any conclusive way


I have not been able to play the game for roughly 7 hours, I do hope these hours or rounds at Bagil count towards extend Janice's punishment for Ban Baiting. Which headmin was behind the recommendation of the action of banning me?

I have hard time interpretating the Space Law part, if it is for the newfriend who thinks nothing can be done to antags during low and sometimes medium pop, where there are next to no sec and heads are dead or for me.

Edit: I did check the recent rounds and see that Anuv / Janice 'Foxy' Lean has been able to participate, eventhough, she ban baited by ahelping a situation which she caused herself. Why is that?

Edited some wordings.
Last edited by Istoprocent1 on Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:56 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby lmwevil » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:02 am #465348

Istoprocent1 wrote: Which headmin was behind the recommendation of the action of banning me?


Nervere and TribeofBeavers were the headmins who were around and gave their opinions on the specifics, always a weird line to know how much is too much to say from adminbus so i'll let them speak for themselves

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby TheMidnghtRose » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:01 pm #465382

After sleeping on it and coming back, looking through the logs again, I sitll would stand by this, you had options of securing them back to Security, even killing them and leaving for dead would not have resulted in the ban. As the Detective I would of been fine with you arresting and sentencing for minor crimes but cremating? That should of gone through a head of staff or the alternate they could of been borged which then could of allowed you to law 2 into finding out more of what happened. Yes I understand that it was a cult round but that still.
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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:06 pm #465384

Imwevil wrote:
Snip


Id like to note that the context given to us was different from the context given on the appeal.
As far as I remember it was proposed as "detective cremates someone for having all access". So youre taking our words a little out of context, since we werent given the entire situation.

Anyway it looks like we'll probably have to resolve this one. One of us will post after it had been discussed.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:10 pm #465385

TheMidnghtRose wrote:After sleeping on it and coming back, looking through the logs again, I sitll would stand by this, you had options of securing them back to Security, even killing them and leaving for dead would not have resulted in the ban. As the Detective I would of been fine with you arresting and sentencing for minor crimes but cremating? That should of gone through a head of staff or the alternate they could of been borged which then could of allowed you to law 2 into finding out more of what happened. Yes I understand that it was a cult round but that still.


There is nothing to stand by. Rule 4 is clear - Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonist. I chose to cremate on this particular occasion.

Permabrig and execution (no matter the way) are considered round removal. Trying to say that "its okay to husk and hide in a permabrig locker", but not to cremate, even if there are no policies or rules on the matter is just silly.

Edit:

TribeOfBeavers wrote:As far as I remember it was proposed as "detective cremates someone for having all access". So youre taking our words a little out of context, since we werent given the entire situation.


[2018-12-28 01:46:38.684] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Janice broke into the brig and captains at round start, stole captain's spare, dropped it at Thomas Lasers feet at some point, caught Janice she had given herself all access anyway, Grand Theft, Cremated.

That being said Janice might have lied in ahelps, which should further increase her punishment as I have not been able to play the game almost the full duration of my day worth of ban.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:17 pm #465386

I was referring to when we got pinged about it for our opinions in adminbus. I wasnt in game for the ahelp.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Booktower » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:00 pm #465388

Istoprocent1 wrote: She was cremated for being a dick and griefing security (causing unnecessary disruption to the round for security by acting like an antag) for no IC justification, also because she was eligible for execution.


Could you elaborate on this? Especially how you believe greifed security.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:13 pm #465392

Booktower wrote:
Istoprocent1 wrote: She was cremated for being a dick and griefing security (causing unnecessary disruption to the round for security by acting like an antag) for no IC justification, also because she was eligible for execution.


Could you elaborate on this? Especially how you believe greifed security.


In broad terms doing things that are detrimental to a an individual or a group with little to no IC justification is grief, thus excessive tiding (such as committing crimes notably ones that have major impact to the round) is causing unnecessary disruption to the security. Same way dragging dead monkeys around and littering hallways is targetting janitor or breaking station is targetting engineering.

Edit: Not talking about dropping a paper or breaking 1 window. Talking about covering hallways with blood and/or destroying bunch of floors/walls/windows for no reason other than shits and giggles.

This is not a major part of the claim and should not determine whether my appeal is valid or not.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:30 pm #465397

There's a lot of talk here about the Detective not being allowed to execute someone, why are we even talking Space Law as a justification for bans or as an excuse in a ban appeal. Executions never have to go through a head of staff here. You're responsible for making sure your execution is valid, but anyone from the captain down to the assistant can execute an antag or sufficiently shitty shitter if they want.

We can argue whether a super valid hunting detective is annoying or not, but fluff of the detective or space law doesn't matter under the current rules.

"5. Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security."

We have a rule explicitly allowing what he did. And yes, execution is almost always round removal. If sec executes someone for a valid crime they aren't getting cloned. Borging is the best they can hope for. Saying "you could have killed her for that crime, but not removed her from the round" is dumb. The escalation policy's requirement to clone someone is for stupid IC conflict between random goons, not security executing someone valid for execution.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:00 pm #465405

WarbossLincoln wrote:space law doesn't matter under the current rules.


I have used Space Law as a guide to determine, whether someone is open for Rule 4 or not - most if not all Capital Crimes are pretty strong indication that somebody is acting in an antagonistic way. I think we need a definitive valid guide to prevent unnecessary bwoinks for the players and reduce workload for the handlers.

Edit: I rarely execute prisorners, but when I do I always make sure they deserved it.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:57 pm #465447

Istoprocent1 wrote:
WarbossLincoln wrote:space law doesn't matter under the current rules.


I have used Space Law as a guide to determine, whether someone is open for Rule 4 or not - most if not all Capital Crimes are pretty strong indication that somebody is acting in an antagonistic way. I think we need a definitive valid guide to prevent unnecessary bwoinks for the players and reduce workload for the handlers.

Edit: I rarely execute prisorners, but when I do I always make sure they deserved it.


Which is what Space Law is for, a guide. But it shouldn't be used for ban reasons at all. And I think there's even a rule that says you should quote it at admins or something. Unless we want to revamp space law and make it more official. But I doubt we do.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Anuv » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:07 pm #465478

The context:
Roundstart I grab my repair gear and head out. Immediately I see (I forget exactly who) Mike/the mime/some other guys breaking into the teleporter room heading towards cap's office. I follow them and yes, the cap's locker was opened by us. Once opened I immediately take the spare and run away. People start begging for AA on PDA but I made an effort to not meet up with them (told them arrivals while I was in departures etc). I didn't plan on passing it out as the same people rush it and pass it out to everyone virtually every single round lately (armory is emptied etc).

I didn't do much of anything besides chill. Eventually I did give the spare to someone but I definitely remember telling them to not pass it out to everyone and to take it. And at some point I looked for food and wander into the freezer and see cult shit. I was the first person to call out a cult base (few minutes after someone just mumbled 'cult' once on radio) after finding them there. I didn't fuck over security or hinder officers or steal guns. I didn't assist cult or give AA to everyone as was claimed. I put on a red evening gown and strolled around the station. At some point I fixed a breach by the bridge and hung around the bar.

When I was subdued at departures at no point did the detective try to talk to me. He didn't strip me or check my bag as far as I remember. He didn't check my own PDA to see if I stole access. All he cared about was round removal. I was begging for my life for 3 minutes in the chapel as people watched on. I attempted to escape death a single time by knocking him down midway to the cremator and fleeing before I was shot again. He didn't have handcuffs (go figure) so once I got back up he started dragging me uncuffed. While standing and uncuffed I stopped resisting and let him drag me on while I kept trying to talk to him before he started to knock me down and head towards the cremator. I could have escaped at many points but I didn't. Only after when I was cremated did he ever say anything at all. At no point did he try to engage, ask, interrogate, investigate. He had a single goal in mind:

Code: Select all
[2018-12-28 01:38:47.130] SAY: 01:38:47.130] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Uhh" (Chapel (134, 57, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:38:49.907] SAY: 01:38:49.907] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Can you not" (Chapel Office (129, 59, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:38:51.794] SAY: 01:38:51.794] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Dude" (Chapel Office (129, 55, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:38:54.072] SAY: 01:38:54.072] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "What the fuck" (Chapel Office (129, 55, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:38:59.387] SAY: 01:38:59.387] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "HELP DET IS FUCKING CREMATING ME" (Chapel Office (129, 55, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:03.751] SAY: 01:39:03.751] SAY: The unloved rock/(Is-A-Lizard) "I'm not helping you cremate someone." (Chapel (131, 59, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:21.450] SAY: 01:39:21.450] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "bruh" (Departure Lounge (143, 56, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:22.257] SAY: 01:39:22.257] SAY: The unloved rock/(Is-A-Lizard) "cuz the detective is USELESS" (Research Division (137, 68, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:25.697] SAY: 01:39:25.697] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Don't fucking cremate me" (Chapel (140, 58, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:26.711] SAY: 01:39:26.711] SAY: The unloved rock/(Is-A-Lizard) "he was going after someone with all access." (Research Division (135, 68, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:31.824] SAY: 01:39:31.824] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "For stopping" (Chapel (134, 56, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:37.245] SAY: 01:39:37.245] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Can you not dude" (Chapel (132, 58, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:39.906] SAY: 01:39:39.906] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "I am not resisting now" (Chapel (138, 59, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:49.155] SAY: 01:39:49.155] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Det is trying to cremate me" (Chapel Office (129, 58, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:50.936] SAY: 01:39:50.936] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Help" (Chapel Office (130, 52, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:52.233] SAY: 01:39:52.233] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Dude" (Chapel Office (130, 53, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:53.354] SAY: 01:39:53.354] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Stop" (Chapel Office (130, 53, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:54.279] SAY: 01:39:54.279] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "Come on" (Chapel Office (130, 53, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:55.931] SAY: 01:39:55.931] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "HELP" (Chapel Office (130, 53, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:56.559] SAY: 01:39:56.559] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "HELP" (Chapel Office (130, 53, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:57.599] SAY: 01:39:57.599] SAY: Anuv/(Janice Lean) "HELP" (Chapel Office (129, 53, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:59.915] EMOTE: 01:39:59.915] EMOTE: Anuv/(Janice Lean) screams. (Chapel Office (129, 53, 2))
[2018-12-28 01:39:59.920] ACCESS: 01:39:59.920] ACCESS: Mob Login: Anuv/(Janice Lean) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer
[2018-12-28 01:40:04.797] SAY: 01:40:04.797] SAY: Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "Dont steal All access" (Chapel Office (130, 52, 2))

Obviously none of the above matters if you wanna go down the Space Law™ route but it's for clarification of all this.




I see AA and hand tele theft possession slide all the time even though I am now aware that according to Space Law you can fully execute someone on the spot for it, which I didn't know applied to AA. On Bagil the same greytide rush for the spare/hand tele/high value items as non-antags virtually every shift but you don't see them being cremated on the spot. I play warden and sec often enough and both see and personally let AA possession slide all the time because it happens so much. I play this game to have fun and let others have fun so deciding as sec to permanently remove someone from a round instead of confiscating their AA, especially when they haven't done any other bad shit, seems really against the spirit of the game, especially if they didn't assault a head to get it. I wouldn't have cared as much if he did perma/execute me but as much as I play I have never ever once seen security cremate someone for just getting AA.

Ignoring ALL of Space law whether it gets used for (only captain can execute) or against (capital crimes) me, and w/r/t captain's office per law 4: Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security. Killed doesn't sound like cremating to me. Correct me if I'm wrong. And especially on Bagil there are countless people that break into command so much, and so often, but again I don't see round removal on the spot. Roughing them up, yes. Murder, sometimes. But cremating/gibbing? No.

But again, none of that matters if you go through Space Law for capital punishment/having AA = instant valid and antag. Ultimately the ONLY THING I remember my ahelp consisting of was asking in plain form if a detective can cremate someone on the spot for possessing all access because I had never once seen that and I wasn't aware that AA = death pertaining to Space Law. I wasn't attempting to banbait nor did I actually expect to see all of this. But given that there is now this discourse about OOC/IC rules and there was a discussion by the admins about all of this I have to imagine I had some legitimacy in asking my question.

It seems the entire breakdown comes down to whether we want to let players use the most direct and strict interpretation of an IC lawset to permanently remove someone from a round because it says they can or somehow change security/antag dynamics more concretely.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:19 pm #465484

Anuv wrote:When I was subdued at departures at no point did the detective try to talk to me. He didn't strip me or check my bag as far as I remember. He didn't check my own PDA to see if I stole access.


RP is not wasted on tiders, there was nothing to talk about. I did take your bag off to check if you had cult gear, which you didn't. I checked your access by accessing the Cremator with your PDA.

Imma drop an Obscure Policy here as well in before "It was cult and not a cultist!": Arresting nonantagonists on station vs team antagonist game modes - By station vs team antagonist game modes, the author of the thread meant nuke ops, blob, wizard, malf, etc. Security is still allowed to arrest nonantagonists for crimes on these game modes. That's part of their job.

You were in the wrong and ahelping that case was ban baiting, which removed my ability to play the game. You need to be held accountable for it.

Anuv wrote:was asking in plain form if a detective can cremate someone on the spot for possessing all access


You forgot about the breaking into caps at round start and stealing spare parts, which is why you got cremated, not just having all access.

Edit: You can always prove that thats all you asked in ahelps and make a complaint against admin going rogue on your behalf.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Cobby » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:51 pm #465492

It seems odd that certain rules permit killing someone (like the breaking into high-level areas), don't require you to leave them out like escalation policy when you're the baddie, but silently require you to not remove them.

If the rules allow for you to theoretically remove someone for the rest of the round (killing and disposing but not perma-removing the corpse), I don't see why the transgressor has to be given an opportunity to be revived and seek revenge. They should just *gasp* not do the thing and play a ghost role/observe/server hop until they can return as that character next round. If it was a minor action then the rules wouldn't permit killing over it in the first place, no?

If this is in some name of roleplay, it's a very warped sense of it. Even the most barebones of roleplay which is to literally "play as a role" falls short on the engineer just running around causing havoc instead of setting up solars/doing the engine to any degree, yet it's the detective who ends up not being able to play the game because they "expanded" the justice aspect a bit. It is entirely IC in a world of various revival methods however to know that killing someone who has friends would most likely result in the friends reviving them and then seeking revenge, and that the only way to ensure that doesn't happen is to make it so the body is unable to be recovered.
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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Anuv » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:16 pm #465501

Istoprocent1 wrote:
Anuv wrote:When I was subdued at departures at no point did the detective try to talk to me. He didn't strip me or check my bag as far as I remember. He didn't check my own PDA to see if I stole access.


RP is not wasted on tiders, there was nothing to talk about. I did take your bag off to check if you had cult gear, which you didn't. I checked your access by accessing the Cremator with your PDA.

Imma drop an Obscure Policy here as well in before "It was cult and not a cultist!": Arresting nonantagonists on station vs team antagonist game modes - By station vs team antagonist game modes, the author of the thread meant nuke ops, blob, wizard, malf, etc. Security is still allowed to arrest nonantagonists for crimes on these game modes. That's part of their job.

You were in the wrong and ahelping that case was ban baiting, which removed my ability to play the game. You need to be held accountable for it.

Anuv wrote:was asking in plain form if a detective can cremate someone on the spot for possessing all access


You forgot about the breaking into caps at round start and stealing spare parts, which is why you got cremated, not just having all access.


You don't waste RP on tiders because you don't RP. Instead you rush the riot shotgun and rubber shot and tazers as detective every round and try to kill whoever you're allowed to until you're blue in the face like you're playing TTT. Everyone sees this and is aware of it.

But don't get me wrong. I get it. That's how you want to play the game - cool. But your second post in this thread is you bragging about "outplaying" other people. You view SS13 as some zero-sum game where you need to punish others as harshly as a set of IC guidelines will let you and make other people lose. You don't talk to people or try to enhance the game by hashing stuff out. You rule lawyer and niggle over details as far as it will let you while forgetting that rule 1 exists. That is why this all happened. Believe it or not but you can enhance the game for yourself and others by not permanently removing someone from a round who didn't do anything round-impacting while you're tapping your finger on a sentence in a set of IC guidelines that say you're allowed to. You can actually make the game fun by trying to talk things out with people and remembering that other people are here to have fun too. You can actually arrest traitors and talk to them or try to work something out when you aren't sec.

Did I do something bad ICly? Yes. But I know I wasn't in the wrong to ask about cremation as a punishment. I asked a legitimate question that I didn't know the answer to. I answered truthfully when I was asked questions about the theft and everything.

I'm sorry that you're so renowned for being such a shitty and caustic player that the administration team as a whole ultimately decided on this punishment when they were asked to weigh in on the matter.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:48 pm #465513

DrunkenMatey wrote:Istoprocent1, there is a difference between execution and round removal.

There is not, if you have permission to execute someone, you have permission to permanently remove them from the round. This is no different than shoving someone in the reeducation locker except that there is a minute chance that person might get cloned from the reeducation locker.

Pepper wrote:
lmwevil wrote:while not directly involved i was on at the time, there was discussion in adminbus and a conclusion was drawn

additionally i hear every round you play detective people complaining in dchat at your conduct as detective, while this isn't entirely related to the appeal it's something to be noted and that you could improve on overall

edit: you also have a week sec ban

What's the point of bringing this up if you're not gonna post anything objective to back it up? Does this guy have a note history for being stupid as detective?

Nobody has anything to back this up with except for "complaints from the players in deadchat", which is not evidence that should be allowed in ban appeals because then ban appeals would turn into a dogpile onto players that are hated but are innocent in a certain situation.
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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Anuv » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:50 pm #465515

If you're an assistant and you see someone having AA or taking the spare can you cremate them on the spot?

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:53 pm #465516

Nilons wrote:
Rule 1 Precedent wrote:5. Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.

Pertinent rule stating specifically that security can execute for this

Anuv wrote:If you're an assistant and you see someone having AA or taking the spare can you cremate them on the spot?

It says by the captain, heads of staff, or security, so probably not, but depends on the situation. If the assistant is helping security, then sure. If you're acting antagonistically with it, then I'd say yes.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day

Click here to make incoherent rants about my badminning.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Pepper » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:00 pm #465519

BeeSting12 wrote:Nobody has anything to back this up with except for "complaints from the players in deadchat", which is not evidence that should be allowed in ban appeals because then ban appeals would turn into a dogpile onto players that are hated but are innocent in a certain situation.

Wouldn't this fall under peanut policy, then? I've seen some random admin immediately post the claim followed by the banning admin. Complaints in dead chat should not be taken into account when banning someone, no?

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Skillywatt » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:45 pm #465532

I know this is peanut posting but Jesus
"Act like an antag get treated like an antag"

You can cremate antags

Disseminating AA is antaggy

This ban and the justification for it screams med/high RP.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:52 pm #465533

Anuv wrote:You don't waste RP on tiders because you don't RP. Instead you rush the riot shotgun and rubber shot and tazers as detective every round and try to kill whoever you're allowed to until you're blue in the face like you're playing TTT. Everyone sees this and is aware of it.


Hyperbole. Trying to paint me as a "noRP deathmatcher" will fail hard, because you can't back it up as its not the case. Getting Riot Shotgun every round? Kill whoever I am allowed? Cease.

Anuv wrote:But your second post in this thread is you bragging about "outplaying" other people.


Nobody is bragging, the reality is that either SS13 has a good flow, which causes players to get immersed to the point where they get super salty about dying or its full of grown men with issues.

Anuv wrote:You view SS13 as some zero-sum game where you need to punish others as harshly as a set of IC guidelines will let you and make other people lose. You don't talk to people or try to enhance the game by hashing stuff out. You rule lawyer and niggle over details as far as it will let you while forgetting that rule 1 exists. That is why this all happened. Believe it or not but you can enhance the game for yourself and others by not permanently removing someone from a round who didn't do anything round-impacting while you're tapping your finger on a sentence in a set of IC guidelines that say you're allowed to. You can actually make the game fun by trying to talk things out with people and remembering that other people are here to have fun too. You can actually arrest traitors and talk to them or try to work something out when you aren't sec.


Creative use of words. My fun comes from catching the bad guys (ie. the real antagonists). I don't want to deal with tiders and I do think that tiders are causing the experience to be shitty for everyone aside for themselves and their tidebuddies.

Edit: All this happened, because you did bad things, ahelped it and an admin made a really bad judgement call by not asking you whether any of what I said happened and ending the ticket as IC issue or punish you for ban baiting on the spot.

Anuv wrote:Did I do something bad ICly? Yes. But I know I wasn't in the wrong to ask about cremation as a punishment. I asked a legitimate question that I didn't know the answer to. I answered truthfully when I was asked questions about the theft and everything.

I'm sorry that you're so renowned for being such a shitty and caustic player that the administration team as a whole ultimately decided on this punishment when they were asked to weigh in on the matter.


Renowned for being shitty and caustic. If you say so, maybe it has more to do with something else.

For your information I have played the detective on high for 2 months or so with next to no errors. The problem is not how I play the detective, the problem is and always has been the players who think they are entitled to do whatever they please or even worse entitled to RP themselves out of a situation.

Edit: Would be interesting to see how the conversation between Anuv and TheMidnightRose looked like in ahelps.

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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby oranges » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:08 am #465615

All logs from https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/basil/ ... 9/game.log, with all irrelevant log entry lines removed

My notes and emphasis in BOLD

Admin chatter between morto/midnight and Istoprocent
Spoiler:
[2018-12-28 01:12:24.282] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(MortoSasye)->Istoprocent/(Istoprocent): Hello, as i asked last round, what was the name of the warden?
[2018-12-28 01:12:53.060] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Istoprocent)->MortoSasye/(MortoSasye): Warden was named Kate something. She might have just been incompetent as she never actively tried to prevent me from brigging Scuff.
[2018-12-28 01:13:31.873] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Istoprocent)->MortoSasye/(MortoSasye): Might have been Kate Lasagnya a catperson.
[2018-12-28 01:19:15.099] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): This seems like an ic issue, after i talked to both Thomas and Kate. I appreciate you ahelping anyway, and encourage you to do so in the future again if you notice similar behavior.
[2018-12-28 01:45:47.436] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Hello, what happened between you and Janice Lean.
[2018-12-28 01:46:38.684] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Janice broke into the brig and captains at round start, stole captain's spare, dropped it at Thomas Lasers feet at some point, caught Janice she had given herself all access anyway, Grand Theft, Cremated.
[2018-12-28 01:47:28.394] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Rule 4 - act like an antag, get treated like an antag.#Since Janice ahelped it, she might be ban baiting.
[2018-12-28 01:50:12.383] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Did you get approval to execute them? Did you discuss it with your fellow Sec?
[2018-12-28 01:51:05.194] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): We are not playing on Yog. Nobody needs any approval. Rule 4 says that anybody can do anything to the antags. She had committed a capital crime, so she was eligible for an execution.
[2018-12-28 01:52:26.168] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): I want to point out that excessive tiding (such as committing capital crimes without being an antag) and ahelping situation, where you have done something (ban baiting). Are against the rules and Janice should be punished for it.
[2018-12-28 01:54:33.210] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): I am going to let this drop, mainly due to neither of you being in the right, them for the crime and you for the straight execution. Only a head of staff can do executions or Security when approved by a Head of Staff, preferably the HoS. (You made the right call here, not sure what happened in adminbus but you should have stuck with this ruling)
[2018-12-28 01:54:54.119] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Dont let this drop. Janice needs to be punished for ban baiting. (It was at this moment, that Istoprocent knew, he fucked up)
[2018-12-28 01:55:31.492] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Anybody can valid anyone who is valid, thats why we have Rule 4. And sec is no exception.
[2018-12-28 01:57:29.780] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): False reports and excessive tiding is what we should be trying to abolish from the server.
[2018-12-28 02:05:08.705] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Looking into it further and discussing it on the Adminbus, you will be getting a day ban from the server and a week ban from Sec. This is due to you going straight to 11 and cremating, which is permenant round removal for stealing the spare.
[2018-12-28 02:05:28.052] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): I will take it to the forums.
[2018-12-28 02:06:17.052] ADMINPRIVATE: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner) has created a temporary 1440 minutes server ban for Istoprocent.
[2018-12-28 02:06:40.034] ADMINPRIVATE: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner) has created a temporary 7 days role ban from 4 roles for Istoprocent. Roles: Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer


Anuv and Admins
Spoiler:
[2018-12-28 01:40:16.889] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #10: Anuv/(Janice Lean): Can the detective really cremate me for having all access - heard by 3 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2018-12-28 01:44:04.135] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Anuv/(Janice Lean): I will look into it
[2018-12-28 01:44:36.000] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Anuv/(Janice Lean)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Thank you. Tried talking, he didn't say a single thing. Shotgunned me, I knocked him down once to try and flee, then didn't resist. He didn't even cuff me, I could have ran. Then cremated me.
[2018-12-28 01:46:15.061] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Anuv/(Janice Lean): How did you end up getting AA
[2018-12-28 01:46:39.555] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Anuv/(Janice Lean)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): The spare was taken from the cap's locker early on in the shift
[2018-12-28 01:56:15.991] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Anuv/(Janice Lean): Did you use the card for more access to yourself? or did you attempt to return the ID before the Det hunted you down
[2018-12-28 01:56:43.909] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Anuv/(Janice Lean)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): I used it to give myself AA but I didn't go to the armory or used it to get more loot or anything
[2018-12-28 02:07:00.461] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Anuv/(Janice Lean): This has been resolved
Last edited by oranges on Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [TheMidnightRose] istoprocent - Unjustified Ban

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:14 am #465616

There it is Janice never admits guilt or gives full details to the admins on what really happened.

And oranges, TheMidnightRose made a huge blunder by getting into Space Law enforcement, because Space Law is not used to ban people, Main Rules and Headmin Policies are. My case is airtight.

Edit: Fixed it for you, oranges.
[quote="oranges"]
Spoiler:
[snip]
[2018-12-28 01:45:47.436] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Hello, what happened between you and Janice Lean.
[2018-12-28 01:46:38.684] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Janice broke into the brig and captains at round start, stole captain's spare, dropped it at Thomas Lasers feet at some point, caught Janice she had given herself all access anyway, Grand Theft, Cremated.
[2018-12-28 01:47:28.394] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner): Rule 4 - act like an antag, get treated like an antag.#Since Janice ahelped it, she might be ban baiting.
[2018-12-28 01:50:12.383] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: TheMidnightRose/(Emerald Gleaner)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Did you get approval to execute them? Did you discuss it with your fellow Sec? (This is where fuck up happened, instead of asking me for approval, they should have asked Janice if any of the things I said happened and either closed it as IC issue or punish Janice for ban baiting.)
[snip]
Last edited by Istoprocent1 on Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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