[Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

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Kendrickorium
 
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[Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby Kendrickorium » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:46 am #476163

Byond account and character name: kendrickorium - Sunshine Day
Admin: Hbk2006
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: around 8 pm Bagil
ROUND ID HERE: 101741
Detailed summary:

Arrived at station as HOS, gear up, head out to check things out. I was hanging out around the bridge and saw the warden being dragged off in the direction of arrivals

I went to go investigate, and on passing the bathrooms, noticed that the door was bolted. After asking the AI to unbolt, i went in, and one of the stalls was bolted. After it was unbolted an assistant walked out whom i immediately tased, brought to the sec checkpoint and began searching, where i discovered a traitor box. Brought him back to sec and offered to make him a member, TC and all, since i felt bad that I caught him so quickly. After screaming that "there was no way i could have possibly known" and that I was "done for" I had had enough and executed him

HBK then boinks me asking me "how i found him in that locker"
I explained to him i found him behind two bolted doors in the bathroom area, not a locker, and that i deemed him suspicious enough to tase and search
after some back and forth it ended with this -

Admin PM from-Hbk2006: Okay so we are going to issue a warning on this, it smells of metagaming a bit. You cant assume someone is a traitor just based upon them being bolted in a room- AI could have done it as malf for all you know. Or someone could have bolted them in, at that point they gave you no reason to suspect them.
A note has been added to your account for this that we have warned you on these kind of presumptions particuarly acting on them without harder evidence.

An assistant being bolted behind two bolted doors in a quiet area of the station which I was ALSO investigating due to traitor activity is plenty reason enough for me to suspect something is up - especially as the HOS. I've been detained and searched for MUCH less. Exactly what kind of evidence is enough to search someone for HBK? Being shot at by an Ebow, or getting my head cut off by an energy sword?

a note for metagaming because a crybaby traitor was mad he got dunked is absolutely retarded -- ESPECIALLY when I gave this guy a chance to continue playing as a member of my sec force



hbk2006
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby hbk2006 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:03 am #476166

Hello, so just gonna post my side of this.
Firstly the locker thing was because someone said locker in the original Ahelp, was later clarified locked in the toilet.
But basically you can't search someone just because they are behind a locked door. You said you saw the warden being dragged when you saw the guy after the doors unbolted there was no warden in sight, so you can't presume he he had anything to do with it.
I stand by my note here, you were warned because you acted on a presumption which led to the ejecting of someone from the round.

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subject217
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby subject217 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:22 am #476170

4. This board is not for ban appeals. You may appeal a ban you do not agree with in the appropriate board. Ban appeals posted here will be moved or deleted.


Also, citing some precedent. It has long, long, long been the case that a bolted airlock is not a reasonable justification to search someone given no other reason, and it's considered metagaming.
thankfully former admin
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20553

Kendrickorium
 
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby Kendrickorium » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:41 am #476188

hbk2006 wrote:Hello, so just gonna post my side of this.
Firstly the locker thing was because someone said locker in the original Ahelp, was later clarified locked in the toilet.
But basically you can't search someone just because they are behind a locked door. You said you saw the warden being dragged when you saw the guy after the doors unbolted there was no warden in sight, so you can't presume he he had anything to do with it.
I stand by my note here, you were warned because you acted on a presumption which led to the ejecting of someone from the round.


I can't NOT presume he had anything to do with it either- the combination of me being on the hunt for someone who had kidnapped the warden and a guy being in the general area behind two bolted doors should be reason enough for me to search him

Feel free to describe what constitutes enough to warrant a search. Should I have waited until he pulled out an esword and charged at me? Nonsense, as the HOS, he smelled bad to me, and I was right.
It wasn't MY actions that led to him being ejected from the round- him being careless with his traitor box and not bothering to close his pda of the uplink, along with screetching at me instead of accepting my KIND offer to let him keep his TC and join my team led to him being ejected.

I didn't just search the guy because I was bored- I had perfectly valid reasons.
Let's face it, sometimes players are in the wrong place at the wrong time- the guy ahelped because he was just mad he fucked up and got caught

as for where this thread should have been placed, I didn't see any other place to put it, so feel free to move it

hbk2006
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby hbk2006 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:48 am #476200

Do police in real life go around searching literally everyone in an area because an unidentified person is possibly committing a crime yet to be determined?

I also checked the logs and you have no previous reason to believe that the person you searched was doing anything wrong- there were no messages saying hes doing anything for example or any kind of suspicion cast upon him other than the hunch you had because he was locked down in a room in an area you happened to be patrolling.

You actually have to know someones committed a crime before you arrest them and lock them up or for there to be a report at the minimum like someone said to you this guy is doing this and then you have a reason to go investigate that person.

Frankly some people have actually received bans for this kind of stuff in the past and i opted to give you a note based on the fact you did try to bring him back into the round with your offer.

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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby Kendrickorium » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:57 pm #476284

hbk2006 wrote:Do police in real life go around searching literally everyone in an area because an unidentified person is possibly committing a crime yet to be determined?

I also checked the logs and you have no previous reason to believe that the person you searched was doing anything wrong- there were no messages saying hes doing anything for example or any kind of suspicion cast upon him other than the hunch you had because he was locked down in a room in an area you happened to be patrolling.

You actually have to know someones committed a crime before you arrest them and lock them up or for there to be a report at the minimum like someone said to you this guy is doing this and then you have a reason to go investigate that person.

Frankly some people have actually received bans for this kind of stuff in the past and i opted to give you a note based on the fact you did try to bring him back into the round with your offer.


If you want to go down that road, fine. Yes, police absolutely investigate suspicious people in areas of illegal activity.
I should also add that this wasn't an area that could be considered private to crew- it was not a persons work area, or the dorms for example. This was in the bathrooms, a public area, and when a public area is bolted off like that, again, it warrants suspicion

If the guy had been more careful, he would have searched and released, that's it. This entire waste of both of our time was because a player was mad he got caught. what happened to "losing is part of the game"

to accuse me and give me a note of metagaming is kind of an insult, and very hasty considering there was absolutely no malice on my part

PostThis post was deleted by Nervere on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:34 pm.
Reason: peanut post

PostThis post was deleted by Nervere on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:35 pm.
Reason: peanut post

hbk2006
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby hbk2006 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:43 pm #476299

Hey, just to clarify those questions for you guys.

Blue level - you need to have probable cause to search, red is search for any reasosn.

The incident also took place early on in the round

[2019-02-13 00:19:11.914] (round start)
and the guy being found at
00:24:55.316

I am standing by there not being sufficient cause for a search and my previous statements in this thread.

For clarity only two security levels were escalated in this round - blue and Delta later in the game.

PostThis post was deleted by Nervere on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:32 pm.
Reason: Response to deleted.

Kendrickorium
 
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby Kendrickorium » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:49 pm #476320

I completely understand why early game searches for antags are a bad thing- give the guys time to collect themselves and get their traitor gear generally without being harassed

again, the guy was in an area I was actively investigating behind two bolted doors in a public area
a simple verbal warning about having to wait for blue alert would have sufficed here

scratch that blue alert happens fairly quickly I'm not seeing why I deserve any warning at all here

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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:06 pm #476327

Kendrickorium wrote:a simple verbal warning about having to wait for blue alert would have sufficed here


The difference between blue alert and green alert doesn't really seem to be the issue. Blue alert needs some kind of probable cause and the point for the note is that hbk didn't think you had a good IC reason for the search. Searching someone for coming out of a bolted room does come across as kind of meta 'I think they spawned something' logic.

It's also worth pointing out that notes are verbal warnings; they warn you the action isn't reasonable and provide future admins context should you continue to do the same thing.
Imperfect catgirl playing a imperfect game.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:30 pm.
Reason: Peanut posting and/or response to deleted.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:30 pm.
Reason: Peanut posting and/or response to deleted.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:31 pm.
Reason: Response to deleted

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Nervere
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby Nervere » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:48 pm #476370

This is not a complaint, it is a note appeal. I am moving this to the ban appeals subforum.
Last edited by Nervere on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: note appeal not ban appeal

Skillywatt
 
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby Skillywatt » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:09 pm #476751

I don't know if this is peanut posting, but the guy said he was investigating seeing the warden dragged off.

As a sec player, I'm absolutely going to drop and search anyone remotely acting sketchy in the vicinity. He could have had warden gear on him and then you have your perp.

Granted, the op didn't explicitly say that's what he was doing but the warden being dragged off would have been enough probable cause for me to want to investigate bolted doors and search someone.

The text when you dismiss an ahelp that marks things as IC issues addresses this best. Sometimes you just lose and it's not your fault. The traitor was in the wrong place at the wrong time, assuming the op is telling the truth about investigating the warden being dragged off. This ahelp is very "ided" and the fact he actually got a note for it gives me pause as a sec player.

hbk2006
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Re: [Hbk2006] - ridiculous boink and note

Postby hbk2006 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:54 pm #476768

I have been looking over logs for this round again today.

I have found that the warden was not at any point in this round dragged by anyone, I did find that he spaced himself and another person and received repercussions for this because he had no reasoning for doing so during the ahelp discussions that took place.

So the logs show that your claim he was being dragged that way in the first place are false and had no reason to be investigating. Even if i hadn't uncovered this today I would be sticking by this is not enough IC reason to search people randomly for previously stated reasons.

Based on this i am now closing this appeal and the note remains.


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