[Coconutwarrior97] Cremating Athena Hunt, Banned for Two Days

[PurpleWitch]

Byond account and character name: SpookyPurpleCat - Len Hollow
Admin: Coconutwarrior97
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Around 7-8 AM
ROUND ID HERE: 102608
Detailed summary:

What exactly happened is that Sheness and I made mechs, we made a firefighter and a durand. These mechs were then pitch black spray-canned so we could get an effect like this: https://gyazo.com/2b703d886247b2f4e101080f20be7757, which shows the cool effect. It made it seem like we would "pop out" of the darkness that we created, these shadow patches using a spray can. Using this effect, we made another patch in front of medical bay. It was pretty nice, we waited, people went by, and then there's Charles, talking about this: (after Athena supposedly killed another crew member violently, as presented by Sera over communications.)

[Common] Sera Dogan says, "Also I saw the whole thing Athena, you brutally murdered Swims for absolutely no reason whatsoever"
C.L.E.A.N. makes an excited beeping booping sound!2
[Common] Nanen Trazen says, "Epic"
Charles Paynter says, "Deny it"
[Common] Sera Dogan says, "It happened exactly as I described it"
Charles Paynter says, "Deny everything"
C.L.E.A.N. is hit by a plasma blast!
[Common] Isaac Reighner says, "Who tried to buy shit like carpets"
Charles Paynter says, "NO NOT LIKE THAT"
C.L.E.A.N. makes an excited beeping booping sound!
Charles Paynter says, "Say the detective did it"
Charles Paynter says, "They're a filthy catgirl"
Len Hollow asks, "Wanna say that again?"

The part where I say "Wanna say that again?" is where I walk out of the shadow patch into the light with the pitch black mech, in an intimidating fashion as they weren't aware we were there (except they could hear the mech stomping sounds.) At this point in time, I use my tazer (and I have a slime core, so I could do it forever) to keep Charles on the ground jokingly, waiting for the Captain who was nearby to see it and question what was going on. (They ignored this for a bit but would later shake Charles up, letting him free from the hose of tazer shots from the mech infinitely). During this duration of being tazed, Charles would go on to say:

Nightmare Machine raises the PBT "Pacifier" mounted taser
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Charles Paynter stammers, "Owie"
Charles Paynter stammers, "Ouc-c-chie"
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Charles Paynter stammers, "F-filt-t-th-hy-y-y f-f-f-fuc-c-cking c-catg-g-g-gir-r-rl-l-l-ls-s"
[Common] Moff-Ra Elias asks, "Heyt ratman you there?"
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Charles Paynter stammers, "Y-you c-can-n't-t-t s-s-sil-len-nc-ce m-me"
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!3
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the right arm!
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Charles Paynter stammers, "R-R-Reeeee"
Len Hollow says, "I can do this all day."
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!4
Charles Paynter stammers, "Wel-ll-l, ac-c-ct-tuall-ly"
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the left arm!
Charles Paynter stammers, "No, y-you c-can-n't-t"
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Rachel Morris does some sort of strange backflip into another dimension. It looks pretty painful.
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the right arm!
[Common] Moff-Ra Elias flutters, "I uh, have some bad news"
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!2
Athena Hunt says, "Those are some big black mechs"
Charles Paynter stammers, "Your-r b-bat-t-tt-ter-ry w-will-l ev-ven-nt-tual-ly-y r-run out-t"
Sheness Hollow says, "Yes she ca"
Len Hollow says, "Be happy I'm not using lethals."
[Common] Nanen Trazen says, "Sup."
Sheness Hollow says, "It won't"
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Charles Paynter stammers, "F-Fuc-ckin-ng us-se l-let-t-thal-l-ls-s-s"
[Common] The chaos magicarp gnashes, "Oof"
Charles Paynter stammers, "Y-you p-p-p-puss-sy-y"
Len Hollow says, "I have a slime core, pal."
Sheness Hollow says, "It's a yellow core"
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!5
Azure Wildfire has analyzed Charles Paynter's vitals.
[Common] Moff-Ra Elias flutters, "Found a dead syndicate operative as al egio corpse"
Azure Wildfire has analyzed Charles Paynter's vitals.
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Azure Wildfire has analyzed Charles Paynter's vitals.2
C.L.E.A.N. makes an excited beeping booping sound!
Azure Wildfire shakes Charles Paynter trying to get him up!
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Azure Wildfire shakes Charles Paynter trying to get him up!2

At this point, Charles runs off, and we go back to our hiding spots in the black patch waiting for another person to spook unexpectedly and switch spots, where I'm on the left and Sheness on the right with her mech. Charles suddenly comes in, holding an ion rifle, which then I immediately enter defense mod, he fires a few shots, and I response with a tazer and scatter. It's quiet for a bit, for about a minute, before Athena comes in and sprays Sheness' Firefighter mech on with ions, setting it on fire, which then causes an environmental hazard to everyone around the mech because it would spew hot gas and over-pressurize the bar , the corridor in front of medical, and the medical lobby, making it unsafe for any other persons without a hardsuit to be in that area without taking burn damage. Athena, after she unloads a volley of ion shots at Sheness' firefighter, is shot with scatter and punched, and then shot again to ensure they're dead.

Nightmare Machine's armour deflects the attack!
THE VOIDCAT's armour deflects the attack!
Nightmare Machine is hit by an ion bolt!
Charles Paynter fires the ion rifle!
Taking damage!
Nightmare Machine is hit by an ion bolt!
Charles Paynter fires the ion rifle!
Taking damage!
Nightmare Machine is hit by an ion bolt!
Charles Paynter fires the ion rifle!
Taking damage!
Nightmare Machine is hit by an ion bolt!
Charles Paynter is hit by an electrode in the chest!
[Common] The chaos magicarp gnashes, "Hey guys"
You switch to the SRM-8 missile rack
Nightmare Machine raises the SRM-8 missile rack
THE VOIDCAT starts to drill .
Kyla Reese yells, "MY ARM!!!"
[Common] Nanen Trazen says, "Heyo"
You switch to the LBX AC 10 "Scattershot"
Nightmare Machine raises the LBX AC 10 "Scattershot"
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the chest!
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the right leg!
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the chest!
[Common] The chaos magicarp gnashes, "Oh"
Unable to move while in defence mode
You disable Nightmare Machine defence mode.
[Common] The chaos magicarp gnashes, "It's the mi-go"
Nightmare Machine has hit Charles Paynter!
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the right leg!
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the chest!3
Nightmare Machine has hit Charles Paynter!
Charles Paynter gasps!
Charles Paynter seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless...
Nightmare Machine has hit Charles Paynter!
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the chest!
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the left arm!
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the chest!
Charles Paynter is hit by a bullet in the right leg!

After the stupid scenario with security, we dealt with the flaming firefighter by punching it with the durand to scrap it, and retrieve the diamond drill and scanner, cutter , etcetera for use on another mech. While we're doing this, Charles is most likely taken to cloning by the crew and Athena's body is left in the middle of the bar, where several other crew members begin to loot the body, and then left it there. It was sitting there for a good minute or two until I realized that if Athena was to get cloned, she'd evade her way around to find a way to kill me and Sheness one way or another, so I dealt with the situation by taking them and cremating them. No one missed them. The AI didn't even bother to get them to get cloned, nor did anyone in the bar. They just left the body there, and no one stopped me from taking the body to the crematorium after I openly said "Gib it" or "Cremate it" with another crew member agreeing with me, but the mech that had the drill was currently on fire, so we couldn't gib them.

I was then later during towards the end of the round when I was about to head out I was contacted by Coconut asking about the scenario. We did use non-lethals on them, and they proceeded to use lethals against us, because once a mech goes down, even with an ion, it explodes, and can pretty heavily injure the person inside the mech if it goes down all together. Charles even themselves "USE LETHALS YOU PUSSY", so this sounds like a fair case of ban baiting, mostly from Athena.

Sorry if there's any grammar mistakes, made sure to make it as clean as possible.

[Coconutwarrior97]

You chain stunned a security officer with your mech taser because they were messing with the detective, who was also a catgirl.

Then issue this threat:
[2019-02-26 22:57:37.367] SAY: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) "Charles, if you pull anything, please note you will be killed immediately." (Starboard Primary Hallway (143, 129, 2)) .

So security goes to detain you because you chain stunned an officer and issued that threat. You, who are in a mech with highly lethal weaponry. While I can understand the ion rifle has the potential to cause some harm due to your mech exploding, it is quite honestly the best and safest way for them to detain you. This portion of escalation for security is relevant here: "Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods." To me if you have someone in a mech which is very durable and capable of massive harm I think its reasonable for security to deploy an ion rifle in detaining you.

You tase and kill Charles after they fire several ion bolts at you. Then Athena Hunt arrives and fires more ion bolts at you. It doesn't really make sense for this to be considered ban baiting by Athena since you literally just killed another member of security.
To sum things up security made attempts to detain you after you chain stunned an officer and issued a credible threat. You responded by killing two officers, and cremating one. You cannot kill security for doing their jobs.

This appeal is denied.

Logs retrieved from: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 102602.zip (The incident took place the round before the ban was applied.)

[PurpleWitch]

I don't think you've bothered to read what I've posted, at all, like the ahelps I sent, but okay. Like I said, Athena unloaded their Ion into the firefighter, not my mech, completely and unnecessarily starting a fire, whereas the firefighter wasn't even involved in the combat.

[NecromancerAnne]

So I was in the firefighter. I also got shot the most over the other mechs and I ended up having two critical item destructions and not only a gas leak but a cabin fire and a lose of control and power leakage. I would imagine Athena fired on me because I was a mech and the first one she encountered despite me being just a big hunk of metal. The silhouettes of the mechs outside of the shadows are actually pretty distinctive.

More to the point, Charles was clearly looking for a fight with him screaming for Len to use lethals and in full view of Athena at the time. The arrangement was Athena in her sec post, Charles in medical lobby and us sitting just outside it in front of the small spray painted patches. I even told Len when she stopped tasing him and he ran off that he was going to go get the Ion.

I did tell Len it might not be a good idea to cremate Athena for this very reason but she isn't lying when she said Athena just got left in the bar and ignored by like 5 people. She was even looted. Seemingly the witnesses didn't care enough to bring her to cloning anyway, and I have no doubt in my mind Athena would have killed the pair of us, even though I myself just took Ion shots and didn't hit anyone (I did misfire my plasma cutter into Athena earlier but I immediately apologised). Charles I believe got a durand of his own after cloning for this express purpose, though I heard this mostly via a syndicate encryption key (I took a trip to the comms agent base to say hello to Ratman, who was experimenting with Happiness).

The whole situation was being pushed into conflict by security, to which Athena was aware Charles was doing. If she didn't think beyond 'let's kill the mechs because one of them killed an officer' and thought 'let's not because it was the officer literally assaulting them for being ridiculed for his own actions and apparent corruption', then that's bad. If Athena was really doing her job she would have sided with us after getting Charles cloned and demoted. Instead she only thought to valid salad the witness because I very much doubt I would have been spared.

[Coconutwarrior97]

Alright, I'll admit that I did not do a good job with investigating the Athena portion of this ban. I overlooked that they attacked Sheness's mech when they entered the fight.
However there are still a lot of factors at play here. Especially in regards to potential confusion Athena may have had about which mech was responsible for the death of Charles.
As a result I've asked Athena to post her detailed view of what happened to hopefully make things clearer.

[Jzoid]

Here's the rules on escalation which clearly apply to this situation and what I believe the ban is about (i.e, dude stuns security officer, security officer comes back and lethals dude and causes big harm to others around him in process)

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

There are three important sections of this to look at.

1)
"If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator."

2)
"If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed."

3)
"Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons"

The first, showing that Charles opened himself up to violence.

The second is somewhat tricky. Charles, who was instigated against in the first place was cloned. Athena, an uninvolved party (apart from the fact she was security), took it onto her (as security does) to intervene, and use lethals against the shadowboys. As far as I know, until this point, Athena wasn't involved in anything, and as such she's become an instigator.
So, the shadowboys followed section two perfectly. The person they instigated against (Charles) ended up being cloned, whilst the person who instigated against them (with violence) got met with violence and removed from the round. Since Athena instigated against them, she is under no protection to be cloned, and as such, she can be permanently removed from the round, in which she was.

Finally, the third one doesn't really apply to Len as there's another rule under the security section, where if someone repeatedly stuns you, you can treat them as an antag and kill them. However, it does apply to Sheness, who was also lethal'd, since other than being friends with Len, she didn't do anything to constitute being marked as an antag, or nothing to constitute being executed.

The security rule I mentioned is as follows

4)
"The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4."


tl:dr, security opened themselves up to violence, as did Len, but Sheness didn't. Athena, an uninvolved party instigated against Len and Sheness with violence, and as such had no protection against being removed from the round.

[Malkraz]

Charles didn't open himself up to violence because of a clause you already posted:

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

Len repeatedly stunned Charles ("The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4.") and threatened to kill him, which caused Charles to respond with a legitimate attempt at arrest. Charles fired Ion bolts at the mech to break it down, he did not attempt to use lethal force on Len. Len then responded with tasers and her own lethals.

Spoiler:

[2019-02-26 22:59:02.130] ATTACK: Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) has fired at [drawing] with [ion bolt] from Starboard Primary Hallway (Starboard Primary Hallway (138, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:02.541] ATTACK: Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) has fired at [THE VOIDCAT] with [ion bolt] from Starboard Primary Hallway (Starboard Primary Hallway (139, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:02.973] ATTACK: Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) has fired at [THE VOIDCAT] with [ion bolt] from Starboard Primary Hallway (Starboard Primary Hallway (139, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:03.426] ATTACK: Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) has fired at [THE VOIDCAT] with [ion bolt] from Starboard Primary Hallway (Starboard Primary Hallway (139, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:03.714] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has fired at [floor] with [electrode] from Starboard Primary Hallway (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:03.838] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has shot Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) with [electrode] (NEWHP: 98.7) (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:09.148] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has fired at Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) with [bullet] from Starboard Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 98.7) (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:09.149] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has fired at Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) with [bullet] from Starboard Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 98.7) (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:09.189] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has fired at Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) with [bullet] from Starboard Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 98.7) (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:09.191] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has fired at Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) with [bullet] from Starboard Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 98.7) (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:09.265] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has shot Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) with [bullet] (NEWHP: 84.7) (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:09.318] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has shot Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) with [bullet] (NEWHP: 69.7) (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:59:09.320] ATTACK: SpookyPurpleCat/(Len Hollow) has shot Gy1ta23/(Charles Paynter) with [bullet] (NEWHP: 55.7) (Starboard Primary Hallway (142, 129, 2))

You cannot simultaneously say "Athena is an unrelated party" and "Athena is security", especially when it's her own coworker that's under lethal attack from an instigator. While she may have hit the wrong mech in the process, Athena was attempting to bring under control a weaponized mech that had just killed her partner.
Athena was
1. An involved party by virtue of being security
2. Involved in what was presumably an attempt to arrest her coworker's murderer
AND
3. Len made herself valid to security by acting like an antag
Given these circumstances, Athena cannot be considered an instigator in this situation.
Even assuming Athena WAS the instigator, given precedent with past rulings on round removal Len had no grounds to actively drag Athena to the crematorium and ash her because "boo hoo she hurt me back if she clone!" A lack of requirement for resuscitation (doesn't apply here anyway) is not permission for permanent removal.

[NecromancerAnne]

Opening fire on a mech with an Ion is not an arrest attempt, it's straight up lethal force even if it's not apparent it's lethal force. It's the same mistake borgs make hitting mechs with weapons. People forget mechs have critical failures that result in potential explosions centered on the pilot that can kill you. While I get that fighting mechs is an otherwise really fucking hard thing to do without an ion rifle, Charles himself didn't need to provoke it further. He actively goaded Len on, as Len demonstrated in the log, and then returned to shoot the mech with an ion rifle. Len stopped when the captain helped Charles up, didn't pursue him and mostly was chastising him for openly saying he was going to frame an innocent person for Athena's apparent murder of Swims-the-Sea. Speaking of which, I have no idea if that was valid or not but it is a damn good example of Athena apparently not even bothering to arrest people. It's outside the scope of the appeal but being in the same round it is worth noting how Athena potentially could have handled the situation. Summary execution of both of us and active round removal, and there is a possible active example of that in the round itself and I don't think any effort was made to bring Swims back into the round.

Take note that this was a green shift.

[Yenwodyah]

Hi, I'm the player that was cremated. Coconutwarrior asked me to give my side of the incident.
Everything that PurpleWitch said was accurate, but I want to clarify the initial situation. What Charles was talking about denying was me hitting the captain's mi-go with a crowbar, not anything to do with me killing another crewmember:

Code: Select all

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/sybil/data/logs/2019/02/26/round-102602/telecomms.txt

[2019-02-26 22:55:22.927] TCOMMS: AzureWildfire/(Azure Wildfire) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "SECURITY" (language: Galactic Common) (Central Primary Hallway (126, 134, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:28.598] TCOMMS: DesuEx/(Sera Dogan) [Common] "Also I saw the whole thing Athena, you brutally murdered Swims for absolutely no reason whatsoever" (language: Galactic Common) (Central Primary Hallway (112, 140, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:29.609] TCOMMS: Yenwodyah/(Athena Hunt) [Security] "Sup cap?" (language: Galactic Common) (Security Post - Medbay (146, 125, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:30.823] TCOMMS: AzureWildfire/(Azure Wildfire) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "WHY THE FUCK DID YO ATTACK MY MIGO" (language: Galactic Common) (Central Primary Hallway (126, 134, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:35.335] TCOMMS: Datorangebottle/(Nanen Trazen) [Common] "Epic" (language: Galactic Common) (Technical Storage (103, 103, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:36.352] TCOMMS: Yenwodyah/(Athena Hunt) [Security] "It was annoying us" (language: Galactic Common) (Security Post - Medbay (146, 125, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:40.921] TCOMMS: Theawfuldynne/(Kyla Reese) [Security] "I didn't?" (language: Galactic Common) (Central Primary Hallway (130, 119, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:43.523] TCOMMS: DesuEx/(Sera Dogan) [Common] "It happened exactly as I described it" (language: Galactic Common) (Central Primary Hallway (97, 120, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:49.531] TCOMMS: Yenwodyah/(Athena Hunt) [Security] "Yeah charles did it" (language: Galactic Common) (Security Post - Medbay (146, 125, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:51.014] TCOMMS: CRITAWAKETS/(Isaac Reighner) [Common] "Who tried to buy shit like carpets" (language: Galactic Common) (Cargo Bay (84, 121, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:55:52.471] TCOMMS: Yenwodyah/(Athena Hunt) [Security] "He beat it up" (language: Galactic Common) (Security Post - Medbay (146, 125, 2))
[2019-02-26 22:56:06.515] TCOMMS: Yenwodyah/(Athena Hunt) [Security] "I saw the whole thing, it was ol' chuck" (language: Galactic Common) (Security Post - Medbay (146, 125, 2))

Of course since this was all over the security channel Len would have no way of knowing about it. At the same time, Sera Dogan had been accusing me of killing Swims-the-sea for the whole shift, and I was pretty much filtering it out at this point, so I didn't make the connection and figure out where the dispute between Len and Charles was coming from. So Len chainstuns Charles with her mech for a while before eventually letting him go, and a minute or two later I hear shots from the hallway outside medbay. I go outside and see Charles dead with the ion gun next to him and one of the mechs standing over his corpse. The way the mechs were painted made it hard to distinguish between the two of them without inspecting - they basically looked like big black blobs.

Anyways, I assumed that whatever the dispute was between Charles and Len, she and Sheness were working together in it, seeing as they were both catgirl engineers in identical-looking mechs with the same last name. Given that they'd decided to kill Charles even with their permastunning capabilites - they could have easily stunned him and taken the ion gun - I assumed that they would continue to be a threat to security, and decided that I had to at least take the mechs out, so I grabbed the ion gun and opened fire on one in the bar. Like I said, the two mechs looked nearly identical and I didn't want to take any chances, given that one of them had just easily killed another officer. I damaged it a little, but the other mech arrived and killed me. Afterwards, Len (I think?) stripped my body, left it laying in the bar for a while, then cremated it. I'm not sure why she decided to cremate me and not Charles, since Charles was the one who tried to ion them in the first place. I ahelped the situation because I felt like cremation was overescalation, since I hadn't made any attempts to even kill Len or her partner - just maim, or seriously injure.

Also, according to statbus the shift was secret extended, not extended.

[imsxz]

mechas are like hulks/borgs, you can't really arrest one because they cant be restrained so you gotta shoot it until it Is able to be restrained.

During my time as an admin, I distinctly remember having a conversation with SpookyPurpleCat regarding escalation vs security, and can almost certainly pull the relevant discord conversation(s) for it. Forgot exactly what I said to them but it was after an incident similar to this, I recall telling them that there is indeed a time and place for killing shitty security officers, but made it clear that responding security officers could do basically whatever they want in retaliation given it's securities job to arrest murderers, and that they shouldn't be killed basically ever when you force them to respond to your crimes.

[NecromancerAnne]

I thought I'd make a mockup of what the mechs would look like for clarification as to what we were doing, since the spray paint basically renders you completely black (though some monitors might pick out tiny differences slightly better) though in-game they'd be less of the blurry edges. That's just my shitty editing skills. Against spraypaint black blobs they're completely 'invisible', though obviously mechs block vision so you would tell there is a mech there just because of where it blocked sight. With mesons it looks particularly weird, which was what I was kind of testing at the same time.

Take note, this is the front view. The side view is a bit more easily identifiable, since the firefighter is a chunky boi and the durand is nice and lean, and stands tall and straight unlike every other mechs more hunched appearances.

Firefighter


Durand

[wesoda25]

For what its worth, I’ve been playing the game about two years and those sprites you posted look the exact fucking same, not to mention I’m not going to take time differentiating between the two when I know you killed a sec officer and could chainstun me at any second.

The mentality of “its my mech I do what I want” is such a shitty one and so widespread. Security is allowed to arrest you if you have a taser. You literally had a walking deathtrap which has infinite taser shots and (probably) infinite bullets. I’m not saying that it’s allowed for sec to RDM mechs, but if you are seen murdering an officer you’re beyond valid.

[oranges]

Opening fire on a mech with an Ion is not an arrest attempt, it's straight up lethal force even if it's not apparent it's lethal force. It's the same mistake borgs make hitting mechs with weapons. People forget mechs have critical failures that result in potential explosions centered on the pilot that can kill you. While I get that fighting mechs is an otherwise really fucking hard thing to do without an ion rifle, Charles himself didn't need to provoke it further. He actively goaded Len on, as Len demonstrated in the log, and then returned to shoot the mech with an ion rifle. Len stopped when the captain helped Charles up, didn't pursue him and mostly was chastising him for openly saying he was going to frame an innocent person for Athena's apparent murder of Swims-the-Sea. Speaking of which, I have no idea if that was valid or not but it is a damn good example of Athena apparently not even bothering to arrest people. It's outside the scope of the appeal but being in the same round it is worth noting how Athena potentially could have handled the situation. Summary execution of both of us and active round removal, and there is a possible active example of that in the round itself and I don't think any effort was made to bring Swims back into the round.

Take note that this was a green shift.

Frankly, the only way to detain a mech non lethally is the ion rifle, so on the balance even if it's got a probability of an explosion we should treat it as a non lethal outcome in all cases.

[Coconutwarrior97]

mechas are like hulks/borgs, you can't really arrest one because they cant be restrained so you gotta shoot it until it Is able to be restrained.

This basically sums up my opinion in regards to the officers using ion guns. It was really the only way for them to restrain you, and you responded in both times with lethal force.

You had two big black mechs, which had been hanging around each other the entire round, with two engineers with the same last name. I don't think its a stretch of the imagination for Athena to assume both of you were in cahoots.
Considering both Charles and Athena were officers, they were attempting to detain you using the most reasonable means they had at their disposal.
Its well established that you cannot kill security officers for doing their job. In this case this is exactly what you did, hence the ban.

I'm still going to deny this appeal.

[Arianya]

This ban appeal is silly.

You instigated on a security officer by chainstunning (acting like an antag), then when you eventually let them go they come back with intent to arrest you (for acting like an antag) at which point you decided to stun and kill them for trying to do their job (actual self antagging and a violation of Escalation Policy!) and when a second officer saw you commiting *brazen daylight murder* and tried to stop you, you decided to kill them too, and on the basis they would *probably* pursue you if cloned decided to cremate them.

That's without me even speculating on you standing in a main hallway "spooking" people with a jet black durand. A cynical outlook could take this as you trying to bait for reactions in the hope you'd then have justification to use your mech on them, but that's neither here nor there for this appeal.

You are beyond blessed to have escaped with 2 days for this given your past history. The fact that you appealed it shows a real lack of awareness.

And in case this ever comes up in future: No, an ion rifle against a mech is not "lethal force". If you encase yourself in a metal murder machine that is unstunnable and highly damage resistant you don't then get to accuse the other party of using lethal force because your metal murder machine will explode if neutered. You could have easily ejected yourself from the mech and surrendered if that was your primary concern (hint: I don't believe it was).

This appeal is denied. I'd advise Len to seriously rethink their stance on this ban and how they act going forward.