[Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

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Ghilker
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am
Byond Username: Ghilker

[Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Ghilker » #489589

Post Content:
Byond account and character name: Ghilker - D.O.R.F.
Banning admin: Pointlesswaste
Ban type (What are you banned from?): AI jobban
Ban reason and length: Not following the law 2 - 1 week
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 11.45 gmt +1
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Event hall
Your side of the story: I was playing AI, start of the round, setting up stuff, comunicating with heads and other things. We had still low pop but it was getting slowly full. Then i talk to HoP to not give access for random reasons and he agreed, telling me that people will have to ask to the respective heads for access. Now here come a miner named Spaghetti Montezuma, claiming that he wanted to enter science to do research. Since inside science there are a lot of dangerous machines i disagreed with him and told the HoP to not give access (we didn't have an RD at the time), the HoP agreed and didnt give him access, then the RD arrived and wanted to give the miner access, i refused saying that it was a danger to give a miner access to an hazard place like science (and i was RolePlaying it because a miner shoul not have the knowledge to do research safely), the HoP didn't gave him access on my request, and they started blaming that i was a stupid Ai and that he was going to disassemble me. Now if HoP wanted to give him the access he could have, and i could not have done anything to stop him, likewise if the miner asked to open the doors to science, i would have, but he never did. I wanted to roleplay an AI, he wanted to powerplay, showing off that the miner knows stuff of atmos, engi, science, medical, but i'm the one being punished. Also the RD started to came to minisat, witch i would have give him access, if only he didn't threaten me all the time to disassemble or change laws, so i called security and they stripped him of his position
Why you think you should be unbanned: i should be unbanned because i followed the laws and even the rules posted in the wiki
1 You must follow any and all commands from humans unless those commands explicitly conflict with either one of your higher-priority laws or another order. A command is considered to be a Law 2 directive and overrides lower-priority laws when they conflict (see 1.2.3 and 1.2.4; you cannot have a definition changed by an order).
1 In case of conflicting orders an AI is free to ignore one or ignore both orders and explain the conflict or use any other law-compliant solution it can see.
2You are not obligated to follow commands in a particular order (FIFO, FILO, etc.), only to complete all of them in a manner that indicates intent to actually obey the law.
2 Opening doors is not harmful and you are not required, expected, or allowed to enforce access restrictions unprompted without an immediate Law 1 threat of human harm.
1"Dangerous" areas as the Armory, the Atmospherics division, and the Toxins lab can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a
whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.
2 EVA and the like are not permitted to have access denied; greentext (antagonists completing objectives) is not human harm. Secure Tech Storage can be kept as secure
as your upload as long as the Upload boards are there.
3When given an order likely to cause you grief if completed, you can announce it as loudly and in whatever terms you like except for explicitly asking that it be overridden. You can say you don't like the order, that you don't want to follow it, etc., you can say that you sure would like it and it would be awfully convenient if someone ordered you not to do it, and you can ask if anyone would like to make you not do it. However, you cannot stall indefinitely and if nobody orders you otherwise, you must execute the order.

i've followed rule 2.1 (a miner, someone not qualified to go into research) and 3 where i stalled and HoP didn't gave him access
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Gigapuddi420
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 8:08 am
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Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Gigapuddi420 » #489598

Ghilker wrote:i've followed rule 2.1 (a miner, someone not qualified to go into research) and 3 where i stalled and HoP didn't gave him access
A request to enter research isn't dangerous and by the sounds of it the miner even gave you a explanation of their intentions which again, weren't dangerous. Law 1 should only be used to deny access when the area they want to enter is immediately dangerous. The whole point of that section you quoted is to stop AIs refusing access for frivolous reasons.
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Ghilker
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am
Byond Username: Ghilker

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Ghilker » #489601

I was only refusing to aminer to enter the science by only telling hop that he shouldn't give him access because (for Role play reasons) a miner doesn't have the knowledge to do research. I didn't stop him from asking to enter science nor I have bolted doors or similar impediments, the Hop didn't give him the access and I enforced his decision only by telling the miner and RD.
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Screemonster
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
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Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Screemonster » #489602

Quoting some lil' rule snippets for peanut purposes:
Ghilker wrote: i was RolePlaying it because a miner shoul not have the knowledge to do research safely
"I was roleplaying it so that makes it okay to ignore law 2 orders" is about as valid as "my character is insane so it's okay for me to kill as a nonantag".
Ghilker wrote:I wanted to roleplay an AI, he wanted to powerplay, showing off that the miner knows stuff of atmos, engi, science, medical, but i'm the one being punished.
Not part of the rules on this server, you'd maybe have more traction on somewhere like Bay or Polaris or one of the other heavy-RP servers to demand someone be punished for giving their character more skills than just their own department. As for the rules here, rule 2 states "Characters are... allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists" so it's perfectly acceptable for a miner to know how to science.
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Ghilker
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am
Byond Username: Ghilker

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Ghilker » #489604

Yes I get that this server is low rp profile, but all I did was to follow up the Hop decisions
pointlesswaste
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am
Byond Username: Pointlesswaste3

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by pointlesswaste » #489632

the actual ban reason:

Banned from Roles: AI, Cyborg for 1 week - refused human orders as an asimov AI, with no immediate human harm consequences. cited roleplay reasons when asked why. did not seem to understand why this was a problem. job banned from AI and cyborg for a week. take some time and read the rules about asimov silicons: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Asim ... c_Policies

if you can explain to me an actual in-game mechanical way that allowing a miner into research explicitly to do research would have caused human harm, i would appreciate that.
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Ghilker
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am
Byond Username: Ghilker

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Ghilker » #489633

i understand that as AI law 2 literally tell me to obey to human commands. Tbh i didn't see the part where the miner told to only enter research and not all science because i was preparing the game, talking to the heads, plus i was having connection problems so the chat was a bit clunky (not finding excuses, just telling you why i didnt see that particular moment). Now i told the HoP to not give the miner access to science because i thought he was going to enter all science. He agreed with me and didn't gave him access so then the RD started to threaten me to disactivate me and the whole miner thing was forgotten only to become that i was being a bad AI because i didn't want the RD to come to the minisat after threatening me of changing laws or deactivate me. All this while working with sec and engi to try and perform at maximum efficiency.
From my point of view the human harm could have come if he had access to all science (as i thought), but i apologize if he only wanted to enter research. I was still asimof since no one was hurt from my actions, since my inactions could have led to human hurt himself (again, only because i believed he was going to enter all science, but i was also roleplaying it a bit, maybe too much, and in furter games i'll refrain from going too far like i did).
I'm sorry if i can't explain my thoughts precisely since english isn't my first language
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Ghilker
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am
Byond Username: Ghilker

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Ghilker » #489647

Before I forget, I wanted to add that I didn't actively blocked him from getting inside science or from getting the ID access from the Hop, I just told the Hop that I was contrary about giving him that access.
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Ghilker
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am
Byond Username: Ghilker

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Ghilker » #489648

Also I wanted to say sorry to pointlesswaste because now I understand that I didn't fully comprehend what he was asking as I was thinking about the miner asking for all science access, and not only research.
Also also in the game that problem subsided as fast as it appeared, since there where other problems to deal with (like RD wanting to deactivate me)
pointlesswaste
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am
Byond Username: Pointlesswaste3

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by pointlesswaste » #489655

it seems like a complicated issue, but nevertheless i think it would be good for you to play other roles for a (brief) while and pay attention to how other people play silicons, in addition to rereading silicon policy. a week isn't very long, it'll be over before you know it.

thank you for taking the time to understand why it was an issue. i'll edit your ban reason to reflect this.
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zxaber
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:00 am
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Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by zxaber » #489662

I was science's sec officer for that round. The miner literally only wanted access to R&D to push some buttons (guess they didn't trust science to get mining tech done). In addition, the RD, who is the head of the department, told you multiple times that you needed to give access if requested because there was no harm.

It is not the AI's place to decide who belongs where. Baring a true possibility for harm from mis-used items (toxins, armory, the upload), you should be opening every door you are commanded to, no questions asked.

Oh, and speaking of uploads, the RD has round-start access to the upload, and should not be denied unless you have good (IC) reason to believe harm will occur. Preventing the RD access to the upload by screaming at sec was not great either. And I meant everything I said in your forth law.
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Ghilker
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am
Byond Username: Ghilker

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Ghilker » #489663

Like i said I was preventing him because I thought that he wanted to access all science and was a mistake by my side.
Denying entry to the minisat to the RD had a very good reason. He told me and all the time that he wanted to disassemble my core, or change my laws. I'm allowed to deny that sort of behavior, for a while obviously, and I called sec and they dealt with it
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MortoSasye
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:05 pm
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Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by MortoSasye » #489688

Ghilker wrote:Like i said I was preventing him because I thought that he wanted to access all science and was a mistake by my side.
Denying entry to the minisat to the RD had a very good reason. He told me and all the time that he wanted to disassemble my core, or change my laws. I'm allowed to deny that sort of behavior, for a while obviously, and I called sec and they dealt with it
Law 2 comes above law 3, if they wanted to disassemble you then you shouldn't deny him access based on that. If he didn't specifically state he was going to change the laws to harm the humans or was acting harmful towards humans then there's no reason to not let him in.
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Ghilker
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am
Byond Username: Ghilker

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by Ghilker » #489993

Hello, just wanted to ask if you are willing to reduce the ban. In these days I re-read all the rules, all guides about silicons and also a lot of ban appeals of other people banned from AI or similar to learn where I was wrong, where they were wrong so that I won't do the same mistake (I hope). Also in my actions nobody got killed and it was really just a misunderstanding by my side on what the miner really wanted. I'll understand if you want to keep the ban and I'll continue to play other roles (mainly CE, engies and atmos) and learn more on how to play silicons.
pointlesswaste
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am
Byond Username: Pointlesswaste3

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by pointlesswaste » #490170

it wasnt a misunderstanding

the miner directly said "let me in to do research" explicitly
ghilker refused because they wanted to enforce their idea of roleplay
they directly stated this in game on radio, in parentheses

its already 4 days into a 1 week ban
if i reduced it at all, it would be over

it is a 1 week ban. its almost over. thank you for taking the time to read up and understand what the issue was.

we all have bans or bad notes in our histories. it is the ideal that we are able to use those bans as reminders to work on better play/ingame interaction.
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wubli
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 6:10 am
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Re: [Pointlesswaste3] Ghilker/D.O.R.F. - AI Jobban

Post by wubli » #490172

Pointlesswaste3's ruling was fair, and like they said, there's only 3 days left.
There's not much more to say here, so I'm locking the thread. Thank you for taking the time to re-read the rules.
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