[Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

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mikeike545
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

[Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

Post by mikeike545 » #490574

Byond account and character name: mikeike545, random name at the time, but usually Mateo Leech
Banning admin: Thunder12345
Ban type (What are you banned from?): server ban
Ban reason and length: (copied from the ban itself) As chef, thought he may have seen the chemists injecting food with supposedly virus infected blood. Made no attempt to confirm this suspicion. Based on this, broke into virology and shoved the viro on a table.\n\nLater attacked the chemists in the bar using a stolen disabler. When the virologist came to assist them with a bola throw, used also stolen krav maga to beat him nearly into crit, and finish killing him when he fought back with a screwdriver.\n\nThis is NOT valid escalation, you took it upon yourself to act as a vigilante with zero evidence and kill people for getting in your way.\n\nThink long and hard about your conduct here. 24 hour ban
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2019-04-23 14:30:37, server time
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil):Bagil
Your side of the story: So what had actually happened was, one of the chemists comes to the bar, injecting food. Silently and acting as if he didn't just do it. When I tell him to stop and push him, he acts as if he does nothing. I punch him, table him, and then throw him into disposals. I then pick up the syringe, which was clearly filled with blood, and head to the viro, because I assume it to be infected with something. (Note; I had gotten all access this round) During this the chemists claims it is Synaptizine when it's clearly red and not pink. I just walk into viro because forget waiting. I then throw the syringe down and ask what's in it. The viro also acts suspicious and just doesn't answer me and tells me to leave. This is where I tried to confirm the suspicious Thunder said I didn't even though I told him this part. I guess he just thinks I randomly decided to table the viro for some reason. I table him four times and leave because I assume he's either a shitter or involved. During all of this, mind, the chemist is screeching that I'm rogue for daring to stop him from randomly injecting food and I tell him to fuck off and stay away from the kitchen. This part I sort of forget but I either headed to the bridge to shit talk them over the comms console, or headed right to the kitchen. Either way eventually one time I come back to the kitchen and the two chemists are there, in fact. Both with syringe guns out. Now. I'm gonna give everyone that reads this five seconds to guestimate what one might assume is going to happen if you had previously fucked with chemists, and they are now at your workplace with syringe guns. Yes, naturally, I, not being ten years old, assumed they were there for me. I quickly run down the hall and go into sec. (There was no security this round, at least, not to my knowledge.) I walk in since no one is there, grab the krav maga gloves, grab a hardsuit, and grab a disabler. This isn't against the rules so I don't see why it being pointed out as 'stolen' matters but whatever. I return to the kitchen. To which, the chemists are still there. A short fight ensues in which I disable them and they attempt to shoot me. After disabling them both, cuffing one and taking his backpack I can clearly see he has hydro. During this I pick up one syringe gun and fire it to empty it since my other hand had my insuls in it, pretty sure at least, towards the bartenders area so it was empty. During this one of the chemists got up and I didn't have cuffs so I attempted to leg sweep him and just kept hitting him because fuck 'em for trying to hydro me. During this too, the viro comes up, bolas me, and also attempts to stab my eyes with a screwdriver. I know this because he has the screwdriver, was right next to me, figured out he couldn't, and then he changed to torso and attacked me there. I beat his ass, naturally. I killed him and was probably going to do the same with the chemists but I said fuck it and just took ones ID and both syringe guns. Not sure if either one died after this, but it's irrelevant.
Why you think you should be unbanned: So let's read escalation! At least, the two most relevant parts.

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator.
You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence.

Right, right. So I believed someone to be doing something illegal and possibly harmful, so I hit the chemist and threw him into disposals. Justified. I then went to the viro, and he just didn't answer my questions and I assumed he was in on it. I only tabled him and while I'm not entirely sure the damage glass tables do these days, definitely not much and I left after. I return to see chemists in the bar waiting for me with syringe guns. I reasonably assume they're there to probably kill me or otherwise fuck with me to hell and back, so I get gear to deal with them.

Getting sec gear as non sec isn't against the rules so I dunno why this was brought up by the viro or the admin. Being a vigilante is also not against the rules but whatever.

I deal with them nonlethally at first, and they attempt to fight back. So they fought me. So they're valid, as far as escalation goes. Whether or not I instigated is irrelevant since escalation covers that. So I don't see the problem other than Thunder thinking I did this randomly or without trying to figure things out, but I did, and was both hindered and then had to deal with an attack in the process of doing such.

I don't care what was in the syringes, at this point. There's no reasonable excuse for not suspecting someone randomly, silently, injecting food. None. Anyone can suspect him of doing wrong. Like sure if he had said it's a good virus or something, maybe, but he didn't. So yes, I would indeed say I had a reason to deal with him. And the viro was just being uncooperative, and I barely hurt him due to such and left because I'm not gonna argue with him and would just be on my way. They all either attempted to or did actually attack me, in which case, they are valid, so says the rules. I didn't kill him for 'getting in the way', I killed him because I had more than enough reason to believe they were bad boys.

Also he seems to have ignored that I did try and that was the entire reason I went to viro, not just to table him. Last edit, sorry, but I forgot to mention they didn't try to leave, either. In fact after I pushed the viro into the hall and punched him a few times he followed me back to the bar.
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mikeike545
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

Re: [Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

Post by mikeike545 » #490635

Gigapuddi420 wrote:
The viro also acts suspicious and just doesn't answer me and tells me to leave...
This is where I tried to confirm the suspicious Thunder said I didn't even though I told him this part. I guess he just thinks I randomly decided to table the viro for some reason. I table him four times and leave because I assume he's either a shitter or involved...
So you broke into viro, he told you to leave because you just broke into his department and you took this as evidence of wrong doing?
I took his refusal to tell me what the blood had in it as wrong doing.

And I just tabled him there. I then just left. He made the choice to follow me back and attack me in another location entirely. And I took that as collaboration given, why else would he make a bola and join two others in attacking me? Escalation rules as they're stated, clearly lay out that even if you think it's excessive that you died, you shouldn't have fought them.

It also says that if you do attack someone who has attacked you, you forfeit the ability for an admin to interfere anyway, so Thunder never should've accepted his ahelp. Regardless of who initiated, mind.
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Thunder11
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Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:55 pm
Byond Username: Thunder12345
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Location: Scotland, UK

Re: [Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

Post by Thunder11 » #490641

Escalation rules are also subject to rule 1, and were written with the intention of a fight where both parties were willing participants involved in escalation. That was not the case here, as you were both the instigator of the situation, and the first to use lethal force, which you liberally applied to the virologist until he was dead, despite him barely fighting back.

I have seen no reason here to believe that your reaction was to any extent justified, unless a headmin feels differently this appeal is denied.
ImageImage
Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!
That's thinking on your feet, soldier!
Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all
oranges wrote:
Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.
Resident Catmin, please direct catposting to: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5578
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mikeike545
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

Re: [Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

Post by mikeike545 » #490647

Thunder11 wrote:written with the intention of a fight where both parties were willing participants involved in escalation.
I very clearly stated how they both came to fight me and continued to try to fight me even as I was using nonlethal means. And even pursued when they could've left. But okay.
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mikeike545
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

Re: [Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

Post by mikeike545 » #490648

I'm confused on what's considered a 'willing participant'(tm).

The chemists made the decision to come back to the bar, with their syringe guns out, and later confirmation of at least putting me to sleep, but with the amount of chloral that was very clearly intended to kill me. And I had told them to not come to the bar area, mind.

The viro also came to the fight by his own volition, straight to the bar without anyone having told them to. And continued to try to fight until his death.

Do tell me who wasn't willing during this?
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Thunder11
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Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:55 pm
Byond Username: Thunder12345
Github Username: Thunder12345
Location: Scotland, UK

Re: [Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

Post by Thunder11 » #490650

”involved in escalation”

You ignored the key part of that whole sentence. The viro walked into a non-lethal scuffle involving you disablering his coworkers. You chose to escalate the fight immediately to lethal force, despite him doing only the bare minimum to fight back, and continued to beat him well after the point at which he was subdued. None of this shows any intention on his part to do anything more than non-lethally protect the chemists from you.

I don’t see how you can continue to convince yourself that your actions were justified. It's still denied, and unless a headmin wants to weigh in I think we're done here.
ImageImage
Spoiler:
IcePacks wrote:
MrFoster wrote:Back in my day, we didn't complain about lag! We used it to queue attacks!
That's thinking on your feet, soldier!
Quality Paprika from #coderbus wrote:[11:35.52] <paprika> holy crap so yeah i don't care about your opinion at all
oranges wrote:
Excuse me? Thats for sensible and calm rational debate, not for senseless whining.
Resident Catmin, please direct catposting to: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5578
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mikeike545
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:48 pm
Byond Username: Mikeike545

Re: [Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

Post by mikeike545 » #490652

Uh, no, that's not what happened nor what I said. First, since when were just punches 'lethal force'?

Second, I already told you he started to attack me with a screwdriver first.. I would very much appreciate reading what I typed. The viro entered a nonlethal scuffle and bolad and either attempted to or actually stabbed me while one of the chemists got up and tried to shoot me with a syringe gun and it went on from there. I'm 90% sure of this, though I'm sure the logs themselves would clear it up more. Though it doesn't seem like you can get todays logs.

But he most definitely did not attempt to 'nonlethally protect the chemists who were invading' from me. That's like the worst excuse I could ever think of. Yeah, sure, protect the people who came to kill. With a screwdriver. Real nonlethal protection here. I'll protect the Mongolians from those mean ol' Chinese. The viro already lied and didn't understand the rules. And both you and him missed parts that were imperative and make it seem like I just ran around killing people. And not the people who came to kill me. The only reason you're saying this right now is because I had gotten a sec hardsuit to protect me from death, which I most definitely would have died if I didn't have it, from both being stabbed in the eyes and getting hit by syringes. This is like saying if I'm wearing ablative armor then someone shooting lethal energy gun isn't valid even though the intent to kill/harm was obviously there, they're just incompetent.

And sure I'll graciously await such honestly.
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Hulkamania
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:42 pm
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Re: [Thunder12345] mikeike545 - ban, yeehaw

Post by Hulkamania » #491506

So, I did some log digging on this one, and have determined that you did in fact strike the virologist first. He threw the bola at you, then you made a move on him and beat him into hard crit. He did at one point attack a firelock with a screwdriver, but as far as I can tell from the coordinates it wasn't even on the same tile you were standing on. After the scuffle began, THEN he began hitting you with a screwdriver in self defense, after you had already attacked him several times with Krav Maga.

I'm going to be denying this appeal. As best as I can tell from the situation you took it upon yourself to play security just by virtue of having all access, the people who you began to accuse of things got upset at these accusations, particularly when you barged into the virologists department to accuse him of things. He isn't entitled to answer you, and I don't imagine he'd be particularly happy you you start to table him just because he won't. You could've taken the blood sample to the holodeck at any time to see what was in it, if it was even anything dangerous.

This sounds like a poor case of overescalation wherein you went out of your way to antagonize people based on flimsy evidence and got donked for not doing your proper investigative work. Next time be doubly sure someone is guilty before you start to take actions against them.
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