[Cedarbridge] - Isy232 - About killing those 2 borgs.

[Isy232]

Byond account and character name: Isy232 - Tritium VI

Banning admin: Cedarbridge

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Game Servers

Ban reason and length: As a non-antag roboticist, flashed a borg for trying to remove xeno eggs laid by a coworker he implanted. Borg attacked (he was a plasmaman for these events) leading to two dead borgs in his office and xenos roaming the halls. Does not understand why this is not \"self defense\". This ban is temporary, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): Server Time: 2019-04-29 06:27:09

Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Sybil. The round ID is 107193.

Your side of the story:

Firstly, I was not actually a roboticist, I was hanging out in robotics because I had implanted the actual roboticist with xeno organs and used robotics surgery for this. Then I was messing around with the 2 eggs I asked him to lay for me in robotics. I was an engineer.

During a meteors round, the meaty ores event happened almost as soon as the round started, so I went around the station collecting xeno organs.

Being a plasma person, it would be very difficult to get the organs put into myself, so I asked the roboticist if he wanted them, he agreed and I gave him the organs.

The roboticist then went around planting facehugger eggs, 2 of them in robotics. I asked him to place some in robotics but I did not say anything about the other eggs.

A minute later a cyborg comes into the room and starts hitting one of the eggs, I wanted to collect a facehugger for myself so I flash the borg 4 times and then stop flashing him.

When the borg gets out of the flashes, it attacks me with a lit welding tool (it was an engiborg) and does quite a lot of damage (plasma people take extra damage from fire). I try to flash him, miss and hit the floor but the borg runs off.

The borg returns soon after so I flash and kill it.

A few minutes after this another engineering cyborg notices me in maint and starts hitting me with a crowbar, I miss with a flash again and it runs off.

That engineering cyborg then later comes to robotics and starts hitting me again, so I flash and kill it. This happens during my discussion with Cedarbridge.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

I would call this situation self defense because it was fight or die and I did not resort to violence until the cyborgs did.

The cyborgs were engineering cyborgs so they totally could have used their RCD's to wall me in, bolt the doors, or just kept hitting the egg.
They also could have tried to talk it out with me and ask or threaten me to stop protecting the egg.
They also could have bolted me into robotics and got security.

Instead of choosing the non-harmful route, the borgs responded violently. I responded to the borgs violence with my own violence to avoid my own death. I may have done something wrong, but I was still defending myself from excessive force (which is valid for borgs since ASIMOV).
I would have locked the borgs down if I could have, but I did not have access to a robotics console and was not a roboticist to access their wires.

If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence.


In hindsight I do think I should have repaired the cyborgs, but at the point where both cyborgs were dead the shuttle was ETA in 1 minute, I was dealing with ahelps and meteors were crashing all around so I didn't think to do so.
Cedarbridge did not mention that I should repair the cyborgs either and I would have tried to if asked to.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.
I do understand that I did not really follow this, I should have tried to make amends with the borgs but as previously mentioned I was already dealing with ahelps and meteors.

I also think that the "xenos roaming the halls" is a bit exaggerated. I myself only saw 1 drone and in the end round report it only showed 1 person as alien (I assume it did not show the dead, but still there were very few). Sure they were in the halls but they were not in control of them.

I also don't think I am directly responsible for the xeno outbreak, I only asked for a few eggs to experiment with in robotics, one I accidentally killed and the other hugged the guy I gave xeno organs. The xeno organ guy ran off and I PDA'd him about coming back so I could remove the larva. He never showed up and I saw multiple eggs around in maintenance later.

Summary:

I flashed a borg to protect a xeno egg, the borg tried to kill me but I killed it, another borg tried to kill me and I killed that one too.
The borgs could have not tried to kill me and find a peaceful solution (such as bolting the room and getting security) but did not.
It was a kill or be killed situation due to being unable non lethally stop the borgs, I was not a roboticist and could not access their panels to take their batteries and cut their wires.

The guy I gave xeno organs went on a bit of a xeno spree and planted eggs around the station, I did not ask him to do this and he did so by himself, I would not say I am directly responsible for causing the outbreak.
The xenos roaming the halls is a big exaggerated, I was alive for the whole round and never saw them in ghost, but I only saw 1 xeno and security was patrolling the halls armed from what I saw.

I would say I should have made amends with the borgs by repairing them, but did not due to dealing with ahelps and meteors. I was also not told to do so by Cedarbridge.

[cedarbridge]

There's a number of issues in this appeal that need addressing and most of them are entirely unacknowledged by you in your explanation.

1) Why did you, as a non-antagonist, feel the need to implant yourself or another with xeno egg sacs in the first place? You clearly knew the result of doing so and its clear from your description of the events that followed that you wanted to either spread eggs around yourself or to have the other person do so. So why is a non-antagonist recklessly spreading around xeno eggs which will absolutely result in people being facehugged and xenos spawning from that resulting facehugging? This strikes me as self-antagging and is itself an offense that I'm not sure I clearly included in the ban reason.

2) Why did you, after creating such an obviously harmful condition, proceed to flash a borg for following its First Law obligation to remove that dangerous condition? The borgs and AI could clearly see that you were constructing a xeno nest in robotics complete with eggs and weeds, but you then attacked the borg with a flash for entering and welding the egg. The egg is a spawner for an antagonist role and defending it in this way is equal to defending an antagonist. This is antagonist behavior.

3) What did you expect the borg to do after you flashed it? What was your expected course of events here? The logical progression is that the borg sees a dangerous xeno egg, attempts to remove it, is attacked by a non-human for trying to remove it, the borg then attempts to get the non-human away from the harmful thing in order to continue removing the harmful thing. Instead, you flashed it, it attacked you, and you proceeded to murder it and the borg that came in to collect the other and to continue trying to remove the eggs. You can't claim self-defense in a case where you are the original instigator of events. Especially when the condition you used to start these events obligated your victims to act in the way that they did.

4) I asked you several times in our adminPM conversation why you didn't say anything to anyone else about what was happening with the eggs, the borgs or literally any of these events. You told me that it seemingly wouldn't matter because it was a meteor round and nobody would care. This obviously flies in the face of the fact that the borgs were entering the lab with the clear object to stopping the plasmaperson (you) in robotics from constructing the obvious xeno nest you had created in robotics. You created an obviously harmful condition, while in a flash-proof outfit, and are now trying to claim self-defense. I'm unconvinced.

[Isy232]

There's a number of issues in this appeal that need addressing and most of them are entirely unacknowledged by you in your explanation.

I did actually acknowledge some of these issues in my appeal if you'd bothered to read it all, such as ways the borgs could have tried to solve this situation without trying to remove me from it with lethal force.
Also you cannot expect me to write about every single thing that happened during this situation and anticipate every question you may ask.
If I still have not answered some of your questions after this response, please ask them again clearly so I may respond to them.

1) Why did you, as a non-antagonist, feel the need to implant yourself or another with xeno egg sacs in the first place? You clearly knew the result of doing so and its clear from your description of the events that followed that you wanted to either spread eggs around yourself or to have the other person do so. So why is a non-antagonist recklessly spreading around xeno eggs which will absolutely result in people being facehugged and xenos spawning from that resulting facehugging? This strikes me as self-antagging and is itself an offense that I'm not sure I clearly included in the ban reason.

I did this in the science department for a reason, I like playing around with the more advanced content in the game, such as xeno ograns. I was careful in my handling of them, being a plasma man my helmet blocks the huggers and if it was removed for me to get hugged I would likely burn to death because the hugging stuns you for a significant time. These were for the 2 eggs I asked him to lay in robotics, I never asked him to lay the other eggs, I have stated this before in my appeal. I gave the roboticist all of the xeno organs I found, which was a tongue (I thought it may have blocked hugging), neurotoxin gland (highly useful, basically self recharging taser), egg sec and large plasma vessel.

I put in my appeal that I did not spread the eggs or ask the person who I gave the organs to spread the eggs. I still think I should not be blamed for the eggs planted outside of robotics. I do agree that planting eggs around the station, especially in maintenance is self-antagging due to being likely to getting people hugged, but I never asked the roboticist to do this and he ran off shortly after I gave him the organs.

2) Why did you, after creating such an obviously harmful condition, proceed to flash a borg for following its First Law obligation to remove that dangerous condition? The borgs and AI could clearly see that you were constructing a xeno nest in robotics complete with eggs and weeds, but you then attacked the borg with a flash for entering and welding the egg. The egg is a spawner for an antagonist role and defending it in this way is equal to defending an antagonist. This is antagonist behavior.

I would firstly like to point out that the egg is a potential spawner for an antagonist role. It will only spawn an antagonist if it hugs someone and the larva inside of them is not surgically removed. I was doing this inside robotics, a place with an operating table and requiring special access to get in to get hugged in the first place.

I flashed the borg because I wanted to still try and play around with the egg, as previously mentioned I wanted one to keep, maybe to breed xenos in xenobiology safely or just keep it for bragging rights. The borg is under law 1 obligation to prevent human harm, but the egg does not harm humans just by existing. It is a big risk so a cyborg wanting to remove it makes sense, but so are many other things around the station such as the supermatter that are potentially dangerous. The borg could also just have bolted the doors to robotics to keep me in there and kept watch or could just have accepted a promise to never take the xenos out of robotics.

I think saying that I "attacked" the borg is a bit of an exaggeration, I only flashed it a few times and then stopped voluntarily to try to work something out with the borg, however the borg then immediately hit me with a lit welding tool, using lethal force. I instigated, the borg escalated so I responded with the same force the borg used to avoid my own death.

3) What did you expect the borg to do after you flashed it? What was your expected course of events here? The logical progression is that the borg sees a dangerous xeno egg, attempts to remove it, is attacked by a non-human for trying to remove it, the borg then attempts to get the non-human away from the harmful thing in order to continue removing the harmful thing. Instead, you flashed it, it attacked you, and you proceeded to murder it and the borg that came in to collect the other and to continue trying to remove the eggs. You can't claim self-defense in a case where you are the original instigator of events. Especially when the condition you used to start these events obligated your victims to act in the way that they did.

I flashed the borg to stop it from hitting the egg, I expected it to not immediately try to kill me and maybe try to talk things out with me or come to an agreement. I expected I would flash the borg, not wanting to get flashed again the borg would leave or try to talk it out with me, maybe we could have came to a peaceful agreement. The borg seems rather dumb for attacking me with a weapon that takes multiple hits to incapacitate while I only need 1 hit to incapacitate it, so I did not expect it to try to kill me immediately like it did.

Also, in your logical progression you said that "the borg then attempts to get the non-human away from the harmful thing in order to continue removing the harmful thing". The borg attempted this by using lethal force. The borg was not peaceful in trying to remove me whatsoever.

you proceeded to murder it and the borg that came in to collect the other and to continue trying to remove the eggs.

This is just a lie, the second borg hit me, once in maintenance, I then missed it with a flash and it ran off. It then came to robotics and hit me again, where I then flashed and killed it. I'd say the second borg instigated (with reason though).

You can't claim self-defense in a case where you are the original instigator of events. Especially when the condition you used to start these events obligated your victims to act in the way that they did.

I am claiming self defense because while I am the instigator, I only responded with the same amount of force the cyborgs used and the cyborgs escalated to that level of violence in the first place both times. I also only flashed the borg first and never harmed the cyborg until it harmed me. If you stunned someone and they tried to kill you, is it wrong to use as much force necessary to avoid your own death to them?

I never forced the borgs to use lethal force against me, while it was their only easy option for removing me from the situation (they could have tried welderbombing to stun me, but that is a risk to the borgs own safety), removing me from the situation was not necessary. Bolting the room, calling security while making sure I stay in the room is a valid option, or the borg could have just kept hitting the egg, responding with lethal force if I ever used it against the cyborg. While the borgs response of using lethal force against me is excessive, it is what ASIMOV allows, however the borgs were not obligated to kill me, there are other solutions which I have listed in my appeal.

4) I asked you several times in our adminPM conversation why you didn't say anything to anyone else about what was happening with the eggs, the borgs or literally any of these events.

I do not remember being asked, but during that adminPM conversation I was trying to not die on a station that had been fucked up by meteors, so I was not focusing on the conversation entirely. I didn't tell the first borg what I was doing because it immediately went into action and tried to kill me, I also cannot talk to it while it is flashed. I never said anything about this over comms due to it being a meteors round and I thought most people would be busy enough trying to save themselves instead of helping me. In hindsight after killing the first borg I should have changed an intercom to explain things to the AI, but I did not think to do so at the time. Very soon after the incident with the first borg came the incident with the second borg, where it immediately tried to kill me upon sighting me, it never tried to talk to me and I was busy fighting back to avoid my own death.

You told me that it seemingly wouldn't matter because it was a meteor round and nobody would care.

I do not remember ever saying this, if I did it is likely because I was trying to converse with you while trying to survive meteors and got distracted. I know from previous incidents that just because admins push some buttons it does not change the rules. Even though it is a meteor round people do care.

This obviously flies in the face of the fact that the borgs were entering the lab with the clear object to stopping the plasmaperson (you) in robotics from constructing the obvious xeno nest you had created in robotics. You created an obviously harmful condition, while in a flash-proof outfit, and are now trying to claim self-defense. I'm unconvinced.

I never created the xeno nest, but I did defend part of it, kind of the same thing though so I do not think it matters. I also did not choose to wear a flash-proof outfit, plasma people are forced to wear them otherwise you die (some exceptions). The condition I created was potentially harmful, so it makes sense for the borgs to try to remove it. I did not want this to happen so I flashed the borg. I have listed many other options the borg could have taken after this incident, but the borg decided to try to kill me. I claim self defense because the cyborg was not forced to try to kill me and the fact that the borg escalated to lethal force in the first place. While I instigated the incident, I was defending my own life from excessive force.

[cedarbridge]

I did actually acknowledge some of these issues in my appeal if you'd bothered to read it all, such as ways the borgs could have tried to solve this situation without trying to remove me from it with lethal force.
Also you cannot expect me to write about every single thing that happened during this situation and anticipate every question you may ask.
If I still have not answered some of your questions after this response, please ask them again clearly so I may respond to them.

I'll set aside this preamble. I read your appeal, that's why we're here.

I did this in the science department for a reason, I like playing around with the more advanced content in the game, such as xeno ograns. I was careful in my handling of them, being a plasma man my helmet blocks the huggers and if it was removed for me to get hugged I would likely burn to death because the hugging stuns you for a significant time. These were for the 2 eggs I asked him to lay in robotics, I never asked him to lay the other eggs, I have stated this before in my appeal. I gave the roboticist all of the xeno organs I found, which was a tongue (I thought it may have blocked hugging), neurotoxin gland (highly useful, basically self recharging taser), egg sec and large plasma vessel.

I put in my appeal that I did not spread the eggs or ask the person who I gave the organs to spread the eggs. I still think I should not be blamed for the eggs planted outside of robotics. I do agree that planting eggs around the station, especially in maintenance is self-antagging due to being likely to getting people hugged, but I never asked the roboticist to do this and he ran off shortly after I gave him the organs.

I disagree and I'll explain why. By admission, you requested both the eggs placed in the lab as well as intentionally implanted the organs that created those eggs into another. In this sense, you hold a portion of responsibility for the ultimate outcome of the eggs thus created. We treat conditions with purged silicons the same way. To my knowledge we treat the distribution of bombs to random crewmembers the same way. You knowingly gave somebody something dangerous and then set them loose with it while yourself sitting on the fruits of that same thing (the actual xeno nest you'd turned robotics into.)

I would firstly like to point out that the egg is a potential spawner for an antagonist role. It will only spawn an antagonist if it hugs someone and the larva inside of them is not surgically removed. I was doing this inside robotics, a place with an operating table and requiring special access to get in to get hugged in the first place.

I flashed the borg because I wanted to still try and play around with the egg, as previously mentioned I wanted one to keep, maybe to breed xenos in xenobiology safely or just keep it for bragging rights. The borg is under law 1 obligation to prevent human harm, but the egg does not harm humans just by existing.

A xeno egg is a potential spawner in the same way that a TTV bomb is a potential explosion.

It is a big risk so a cyborg wanting to remove it makes sense, but so are many other things around the station such as the supermatter that are potentially dangerous. The borg could also just have bolted the doors to robotics to keep me in there and kept watch or could just have accepted a promise to never take the xenos out of robotics.

Apart from the fact that the supermater is in a heavily fortified containment system with several alarms and failsafes and robotics has a couple doors and windows, I'm not seeing the comparision other than that both things are dangerous. We don't allow the AI to let randoms into the SM or expose it to the hallway. That the borg had alternatives to removing your eggs is not terribly relevant here. It was operating under an obligation to quell an imminently dangerous condition that it and the AI had discovered in the robotics lab and which you were guarding.

I think saying that I "attacked" the borg is a bit of an exaggeration, I only flashed it a few times and then stopped voluntarily to try to work something out with the borg, however the borg then immediately hit me with a lit welding tool, using lethal force. I instigated, the borg escalated so I responded with the same force the borg used to avoid my own death.

Saying that you 'only flashed it a few times' as evidence of not attacking somebody is a strange defense given that the game's combat system more or less revolves around stuns. If we're to take flashing as a non-attack, non-harmful option you'll also have to have acknowledged that your plasmaman suit renders you entirely flashproof and thus renders you immune to the only non-lethal option the borgs had short of fleeing from what they can only assume is a hostile plasmaman standing in a nest of xeno eggs which said plasmaman is defending from asimov borgs. I'm content that "attacked" is good word choice in this case.

I flashed the borg to stop it from hitting the egg, I expected it to not immediately try to kill me and maybe try to talk things out with me or come to an agreement. I expected I would flash the borg, not wanting to get flashed again the borg would leave or try to talk it out with me, maybe we could have came to a peaceful agreement. The borg seems rather dumb for attacking me with a weapon that takes multiple hits to incapacitate while I only need 1 hit to incapacitate it, so I did not expect it to try to kill me immediately like it did.

Also, in your logical progression you said that "the borg then attempts to get the non-human away from the harmful thing in order to continue removing the harmful thing". The borg attempted this by using lethal force. The borg was not peaceful in trying to remove me whatsoever.

Given that we've established above that you attacked the borg with a flash for trying to weld the xeno egg and given that below you admit that their attacking you in kind was what their laws provide (and more likely require in this case) expecting the borg to merely leave after you attacked it and hope that the eggs and their clearly hostile keeper just sort themselves out is making a pretty big leap. You've already established yourself as antagonistic (within the logical view of the borgs and AI) in a direct sense by defending the uncontained egg from the borg's intentions in the first place (this after a human had already been facehugged, as per your admission in the first post.) We discussed at the time why you had never said anything to anyone about the eggs, the situation with the borgs, etc and your excuse was that everyone on the station was too busy with the meteors to care about your situation or care about what was going on with you, the eggs and the borgs. Apparently the borgs and AI, as well as the humans they spoke to about you cared because they attempted to get rid of the eggs that they could very easily view as a secondary imminent threat. I find this peculiar as well because you claim above that after you flashed the borg the first time you expected the borg to talk about things. Yet after the altercation with the first borg was done and the borg was dead, you still remained mum about the situation until it happened again. The only reasonable belief that anyone outside of you would have of that situation is that robotics (and probably more of science, given an observer's lack of access and view range) is overrun by xenos and there's a plasmaman aidiing them.

This is just a lie, the second borg hit me, once in maintenance, I then missed it with a flash and it ran off. It then came to robotics and hit me again, where I then flashed and killed it. I'd say the second borg instigated (with reason though).
Nothing in that quote is untrue so calling it a lie is itself a falsehood. Yes, as a part of the ongoing hostilities between you and the borgs, the second borg hit you with a crowbar in maint on your continued evidence of being a hostile force attempting to bring xenos to the station and defending the eggs that make that possible. This after you'd already decomissioned the first borg for trying to stop you. This after, as established, you did nothing to change perceptions that you were anything but antagonistic. This is a single continuing instance of antagonistic behavior with several sub-acts.

I am claiming self defense because while I am the instigator, I only responded with the same amount of force the cyborgs used and the cyborgs escalated to that level of violence in the first place both times. I also only flashed the borg first and never harmed the cyborg until it harmed me.

This is a misstating of escalation. As stated above, our combat system is heavily focused on stuns and other long-term disables. While standing in a position with intentions that clearly read to an outside observer "I am antagonist" you flashed a borg attempting to defuse that antagonistic condition (the eggs) and thus instigated a sitation where the reasonable presumption that the borg had to operate on is "A non-human with xeno eggs just flashed me. I could die and these eggs will get out." The borg had no non-lethal means of subduing you. The borg had no reason to view you as anything but hostile and thus took the action most likely to result in you leaving or otherwise ceasing to be a threat. The only person in that situation who could assert self-defense is the borg. You were not in your department (as I remember it you were an atmos tech this particular round) so you were obviously not defending your department. The timeline clearly establishes that you instigated the altercation by flashing the borg so claiming that because you did not do the first points of hp damage in this case you are then the innocent defender is being dishonest.

If you stunned someone and they tried to kill you, is it wrong to use as much force necessary to avoid your own death to them?

Your example is too vague. If you stun a person and they punch you, you are not then carte blanc to murder them on the spot. This question seems peculiar in light of your your other statements that seem to imply that the borg you flashed had the duty to flee from you but here we're to assume that you had no similar duty to retreat. Our escalation policy does not place that obligation on either party, but in your explanation its implied unilaterally.

I never forced the borgs to use lethal force against me, while it was their only easy option for removing me from the situation (they could have tried welderbombing to stun me, but that is a risk to the borgs own safety), removing me from the situation was not necessary. Bolting the room, calling security while making sure I stay in the room is a valid option, or the borg could have just kept hitting the egg, responding with lethal force if I ever used it against the cyborg. While the borgs response of using lethal force against me is excessive, it is what ASIMOV allows, however the borgs were not obligated to kill me, there are other solutions which I have listed in my appeal.

This is what I mean above. You imply that the borgs had alternatives but apply the duty to find such alternatives unilaterally. You were not forced by events to instigate a feud with the AI and borgs. You could have left (the department was not yours), you could have stepped away from the egg and told the borg to stop. You could have flashed and removed the borg with assurances that the eggs would not get out. You could have done a million things that you impute to the borgs as a duty, but in each instance you were the instigator and are attempting to place the duty to defuse the situation on the borgs, which I find unacceptable given the circumstances.

I do not remember ever saying this, if I did it is likely because I was trying to converse with you while trying to survive meteors and got distracted. I know from previous incidents that just because admins push some buttons it does not change the rules. Even though it is a meteor round people do care.

You're understanding this outside of its provided context. Strange since you repeated what I was referring to in the quote above this one where you assert that "others would be more occupied with surviving the meteors that caring about my situation." You painted a neon sign that said "I've got xenos and I'm protecting them against the borgs" and now act surprised that people took notice.

I never created the xeno nest, but I did defend part of it

These were for the 2 eggs I asked him to lay in robotics, I never asked him to lay the other eggs, I have stated this before in my appeal.

So, yes, you physically did not lay the eggs that you specifically requested after turning the roboticst into a pseudo alien queen. You constructed the next by proxy and request.

This entire tl:dr cut short. No, I'm still not convinced that this was a valid case for self defense. You created a situation that rides the line with killbaiting and self-antagging and then tried to use that situation to claim self-defense when you were attacked. If that was not your intent then I'm willing to adjust the note to that effect, but otherwise, circumstances as they were, I don't see a valid reason to grant this appeal on my own and will deffer to headmins if one sees fit to overturn it.

[Isy232]

I am not going to quote much to prevent this from becoming an even longer wall of text.

Firstly, I do consider myself partially responsible for the xeno eggs being placed around the station. I gave someone who later proved themselves to be untrustworthy the organs. However I do think I am not as responsible as if I was giving away bombs. You also compared the xeno eggs to a TTV as in they both the the potential to be extremely dangerous, but there are some important differences.

Xeno eggs are quite obvious what they do and are a lot simpler in their use. They also take time to mature, so if at any time the roboticist had thought that maybe planting all of these eggs was a bad idea he could have removed the eggs before they matured.

TTV's are complex and difficult to understand and once the gasses mix the detonation is basically inevitable. Once you open that valve it is too late to stop it whatsoever.


While the borg was following its laws to remove the xeno egg, I still do not think that attacking me was necessary. I think it is relevant that the borg had other ways to deal with the situation after I flashed it, such as trying to talk it out with me or bolting the doors and calling security, staying to make sure I did not try to escape with the xeno. I also would not say that I attacked the borg with any harmful intent as I purposely stopped flashing it to try to come to a peaceful conclusion, the borg then immediately tried to kill me after the flashing wore off instead of also trying to come to a peaceful conclusion. I think it is completely valid to call this self defense because even though I instigated by flashing, I never showed intent to harm the borg and the borg was the one who escalated the situation the lethal force.

I think my only other fault outside of trusting the roboticist to be responsible with the xeno organs is not immediately using an intercom to talk to the AI about the situation, however I was just in a fight where I had nearly died and it was a hectic meteors round.

Later another borg stumbled across me in maintenance and hit me, I tried to flash it and missed and the borg then ran off. I then went back to robotics where that same second borg went to robotics and hit me again, I then flashed and killed it.

I also do not think it is fair to call this situation killbaiting, I never escalated to lethal force and purposely stopped flashing the first borg to try to come to a peaceful conclusion, but the borg did not want one.

I do not think this is self-antagging because I was defending a single egg in the science department with the tools to cure an infection right nearby. Like the rare spawn of a xeno egg in xenobiology I think I had this situation contained to the point where it was safe enough to not be like some antagonist death trap.

I understand that the AI had reason to view me as antagonistic, but the AI could have PDA'd me or used a holopad to talk things out with me too before resorting to calling a borg to destroy the egg.

In conclusion:
I still think that the borgs and AI could have tried to come to a peaceful conclusion but they did not, instead resorting to lethal force so I still do claim self defense.
It was dumb to trust someone with a xeno egg sac, but I think my responsibility for the laying of xeno eggs outside of robotics is minimal due to previous reasons, I do not think I should have to treat the roboticist like he is incompetent with science related issues.
My intent was never to kill bait the borgs, I stopped flashing the first one for that reason so we had the chance to come up with a peaceful solution.
I do not think that me defending the single xeno egg in robotics is self antagging because if someone did get infected I had the tools and knowledge to cure then and prevent them from coming to any harm. I would consider the egg safely contained.
I think that if Cedarbridge would have asked me to make amends with the borgs during the round this issue would never have had to come to this.

I would like a headmin ruling before this thread is locked if possible.

[Hulkamania]

Relying on another player to police themselves on egg laying is not how it works. When you give the AI an utterly irresponsible law, you are the one who suffers the consequences of their actions. When you leave a TTV laying around and someone uses it to blow things up, you are equally to blame in this exchange for having left such a dangerous thing out. When you give someone the ability to spawn xenomorph eggs, it then becomes your fault that they used said power in the first place.

I find it very confusing how you bring up on more than one occasion that people can just remove the eggs, while also explaining how your confrontation with the borgs began because they were doing just that. They were following their laws to protect the station from a threat (a very big threat mind you, xenomorphs are round ending in their own right) and you decided that the egg was more important than the play experience of these two individual players. I'm really not sure what the hell your endgame was going to be here. Xeno eggs lead to only one thing, which is a xeno outbreak. There is no benefit to having them around beyond selling their organs for some cash in cargo. You were setting up the station for a nightmare scenario in which it would be barraged by meteors AND suffering from a xenomorph infestation and the borgs were attempting to rectify that, quite logically so.

This appeal is denied. On a personal note you've put more bluster into a 24 hour ban than most people do for their perma appeals. I recommend you stop taking the game so seriously that you fight tooth and nail to defend yourself instead of just admitting you screwed up a bit and moving on.