[Pointlesswaste3] PolishUser - Escalation Ban

[Polish_User]

Byond account and character name: PolishUser, JC Denton
Banning admin: Pointlesswaste3
Ban reason and length: escalated from being shoved to murder. this is not ok. please read the rules: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules - 24hrs
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 20:24:39 UTC
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Hall
Your side of the story: I was walking to the departures and saw janitorial ERT in the departures, he used his energy gun on disable on someone(I don't remember), then the sec officer came in and used his disabler on the ERT. So, i had picked up the energy gun to disable the rouge sec and help the ert, the sec got stunned, but then the clown came in shoving me, making me drop the energy gun which he picked up. So, i've pulled out my KA to intimidate him, i'll be honest here i don't remember if I shot him or not. After that, He slipped me with a soap and stole my KA, putting it in his backpack. At, THAT point i used my advanced plasma cutter to kill him for the theft, since i didn't have any stuns. I knocked him unconsious and then a janiborg came in and tried to take the corpse. I admit i kicked him a few times while the borg was carrying him (borg carried him somewhere no idea where) and then I got bwoinked and end up here writing this appeal.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I think that i didn't break any rules and followed the laws of escalation, because the theft of a fully modded KA with a bayonet is not a silly thing. When it comes to the ban you can do whatever you want with it since there's only one hour left of it.

[pointlesswaste]

as i recall from the logs, the clown used exactly 0 lethal attacks on you and in fact only passive grabbed and shoved you. you used quite a few lethal attacks on them and they ended up dead. you lost, iirc, about 2 hp, pretty sure it was from slipping and falling. you killed someone because they took your gun. you can just buy a new one and report the theft to security. i'm denying this.

[Polish_User]

Don't you mind, if i take a look at these logs?

[Skillywatt]

escalation policy from the wiki

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

how is what he did not in congruence with escalation policy? sounds like this situation is more of an indictment on the policy than the player

[Daxxed]

Can someone pull the logs ?
I am curious if he really did shoot the clown before the PKA was stolen, if someone did this to me if I were a miner I wouldnt just crit them for it...

[pointlesswaste]

they did not shoot until after it was taken iirc. in general when you kill someone as a nonantag, unless you're absolutely certain that they're an antag, take them to be cloned. try to avoid killing people as nonantag, though, there are many other solutions to problems.

[Polish_User]

So, technically i didn't break any rules. Then, why do I still have this note? Stealing a miner's KA is like stealing a chemist's chem dispenser, it is preventing them from doing their job, so it shouldn't be suprising that they got killed because of it.

[pointlesswaste]

it is not the fact that you retaliated, but the fact that you retaliated specifically with murder to a disarm shove.

[Polish_User]

Ok, since we are not going to reach consensus in that ban(or rather note, damm it's going on for like a few days at this point). I'm enacting a penaut policy to see what other players have to say about this matter. So, regarding to the rules i didn't break an escalation rule, I quote from wiki:

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

.
Also, my story turned out to be a truthful one since admin have confirmed this, I quote:

they did not shoot until after it was taken iirc.

What's more:

it is not the fact that you retaliated, but the fact that you retaliated specifically with murder to a disarm shove.

How's that against any rules, in given circumstances?

[pointlesswaste]

it is ridiculous over-escalation. if you had an egun, you could have easily just disabled them and taken the pka back. you chose to use lethal means instead. please don't rp a murderer.

[pointlesswaste]

alright, i'm removing this ban and replacing it with a note. again, please don't rp a murderer.

[4dplanner]

Point of clarification: isn't it true he didn't have the energy gun by the time the pka was taken? The OP says that the clown took the energy gun too.

[Skillywatt]

Clown took egun first then KA, then was killed by OP with a plasma cutter.

This one needs a headmin ruling.

[Karp]

IIRC it depends on the circumstances ill link the previous headmin policy decisions and relevant quotes and not the thread in the admin forums. kor/ausops posted in it but arm said nothing so

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=12466

There is no hard answer.

Unprovoked griff by an assistant can be met with critting the cunt and tossing him out the department doors into a hallway. A small disarm slapfight over a clown's PDA might turn into someone being bashed to death with a fire extinguisher and in those cases, a player might be required to bring the other person to medbay.

If you don't want to suffer disproportionate bad consequences then don't wrong people in the first place.

But if you overescalate like a psychopath over something minor then they're allowed to go nuts back, you've forfeited your killbaiting protection. If you don't want to get "killbaited" respond non lethally or call security or something.

The gist of the post was that killing people for wronging you over murderable issues shouldn't obligate cloning(Permanent removal is still a nono) but medical care is required if you slightly overescalate or kill someone in a situation where you couldn't kill them. For succumbing, if the person ahelps after succumbing at that point it' might be just straight up banbaiting by killing themselves faster if they say "X killed me." instead of "X crit me." and they refuse to tell the truth then it's probably banbaiting. Idk what the clown was expecting running up to security/the ert fighting and stunning an officer involved in a fight by shoving them into a wall to grab his egun, and then stunning him again to grab his kinetic accelerator after he threatened him for the egun. This is personal opinion but it feels like a "Play stupid games win stupid prizes" situation and the clown was given more leniency by being given a chance to return the egun

[wubli]

The ban has been removed already, but I'm accepting this appeal and removing the note.
If anything is wrong with this, it's escalation policy and something up to headmins - but I believe this is the current one working perfectly. This should have been deemed as an IC issue, and as such, the note should be removed.
I am the kind of person that believes that we should try to avoid murder at all costs, but I understand how this happened - and as long as it didn't end in round removal, it worked under it. If a borg takes someone you critted from you, the responsibility for their healing relies upon the borg who's probably just following law 1. Had PolishUser attempted to take back the clown and space them over theft and without a prior fight, this would've turned out differently. As it is, this is just a case of escalation policy working properly.
This is resolved, but you are free to add something else if needed.