/tg/Station 13

Byond account and character name: RagingTuna / Zayden Schrader
Banning admin: Nervere
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server in round 113608 on Terry
Ban reason and length: Crit someone after they entered their office for a (very) brief duration of time. This is somewhat understandable because of the tider EARLIER in the shift, but there was no active threat when he did this and critting them wasn\'t really warranted. In the context of your note history, you\'re really at your limit here, and future bans will likely be permanent. This ban is temporary, it will be removed in 3 days.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 16:40~ CET 20.07.2019
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Terry/Larry/Whatever the name is
Your side of the story: I had my office as HoP broken in so fast I could barely grab the gun, I didn't even get to give me AA in time, by the clown/mime of that round. Caroline Dupont, the assistant, decided to run in and do whatever she was doing in my office WHILE I was trying to arrest the pair (they escaped) and got crit batonned for it. She got healed by a doctor afterwards and I was trying to message/explain the situation the whole shift, but instead got removed from the game as acting captain?

Why you think you should be unbanned: Rule 1, precedent 5: Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.. I was trying to protect my office and I did NOT intend to nor kill the person and I genuinely believe it is unfair that I am banned from trying to protect my workplace from shitters in (as far as my understanding on the rules) accordance with the rules. How am I to protect my office from three fucking people breaking in than using whatever I have at my disposal? Did I permakill the guy or something? No, I put him in crit, let him get healed and went to track down the duo that was being shitty, one of which got released anyways as he stopped being a shitter.

To the best of my knowledge I'm following the rules and I think Nervere might want to actually look into the situation and how I was feeling instead of just slapping bans on me because a guy got critted and let go for trespassing in my workplace while I was trying to arrest literal two people for doing the exact same. I genuinely believe this is an IC issue as I did NOT set him on arrest after, I did NOT kill/permakill him and I oversaw him being taken by a doctor after I beat him up with a baton for trespassing. The rules say you get a day of ban per person killed, and I got a three day ban for critting a person WITHIN the rules.

This ban occurred in round 113608 on Terry. This ban was placed at approximately 14:38UTC on 07/20/2019. (src, statbus, scrubby)

The rules say you get a day of ban per person killed, and I got a three day ban for critting a person WITHIN the rules.

That's just a rough guideline, the actual duration can vary greatly depending on previous offenses(notes/bans), the persons conduct in the ticket, the circumstances of the actual killing and so on and so forth.

Booktower wrote:

The rules say you get a day of ban per person killed, and I got a three day ban for critting a person WITHIN the rules.

That's just a rough guideline, the actual duration can vary greatly depending on previous offenses(notes/bans), the persons conduct in the ticket, the circumstances of the actual killing and so on and so forth.

That's understandable, of course.

I was under the impression that departmental defense provides absolute cover here, considering the obviously greytiding player didn't even get killed for it. Isnt Caroline Dupont an admin's character?

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I was under the impression that departmental defense provides absolute cover here, considering the obviously greytiding player didn't even get killed for it. Isnt Caroline Dupont an admin's character?

Yes it is. It belongs to DaxDeen (Dax Dupont on discord) or something, not sure the exact name.
I believe this does fall under rule 1 precedent 5 and is understandable and was a pure accident that the guy got critted. I was apologetic about the whole situation, made sure he got healed (doctors took him to medbay right in front of me), did not set him to arrest, tried to make conversation the whole shift. If I'm honest, I believe this is nothing more than an IC issue, since he wasn't even killed.

I would like to note that I didn't break in. Trespassing != breaking in if you really want to rule lawyer your way out of this.

I walked in while the clown and mime were long gone, the door was long hacked open.

I went in for a second and straight out. Nothing taken, nothing done. Then beat into crit for merely walking into the room. You also didn't 'let them heal me', they took me away instantly because you were still beating me.

Additionally you just came off a sec ban for executing people for the smallest of reasons which played a part in the decision making. Which also explains why your ban was longer than a day.

Dax Dupont wrote:I would like to note that I didn't break in. Trespassing != breaking in if you really want to rule lawyer your way out of this.

I walked in while the clown and mime were long gone, the door was long hacked open.

I went in for a second and straight out. Nothing taken, nothing done. Then beat into crit for merely walking into the room. You also didn't 'let them heal me', they took me away instantly because you were still beating me.

Additionally you just came off a sec ban for executing people for the smallest of reasons which played a part in the decision making. Which also explains why your ban was longer than a day.

You got beat into crit for walking into the room and walking towards me at an absolutely horrible timing. Mate, if I wanted you dead, do you think I'd let them take you away?
I start the round and I get my office broken in so fast I couldn't even put the armor vest in time. You came in around thirty seconds after the mime helped the clown escape and got beaten up for it. BEATEN UP, not killed. Can you be at least a bit humane and understanding? You spent the whole shift bitching about me over comms while I was trying to do my best, do my job, and make contact with you as well. I think you're being a bit of a dick, honestly, instead of trying to see my point and realise that while critting you might not have been fair, I was going through some shit that round and was on the brink of running away to security and breaking my ID console as I couldn't do anything about people trying to robust me in my own office for literally being too slow at the job.
I'm not sure at all how that sec ban is relevant at all, executing people and beating people up while having valid reasons (covered in rules) is different things. And I'm not sure if there's a language barrier here, but to me "break in" is absolutely applicable to that situation, as you used a HACKED IN DOOR to trespass into my office. What if you were a part of the three, is only the person doing the hacking breaking in my office and others are merely trespassing?

RagingTuna wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:I would like to note that I didn't break in. Trespassing != breaking in if you really want to rule lawyer your way out of this.

I walked in while the clown and mime were long gone, the door was long hacked open.

I went in for a second and straight out. Nothing taken, nothing done. Then beat into crit for merely walking into the room. You also didn't 'let them heal me', they took me away instantly because you were still beating me.

Additionally you just came off a sec ban for executing people for the smallest of reasons which played a part in the decision making. Which also explains why your ban was longer than a day.

You got beat into crit for walking into the room and walking towards me at an absolutely horrible timing. Mate, if I wanted you dead, do you think I'd let them take you away?
I start the round and I get my office broken in so fast I couldn't even put the armor vest in time. You came in around thirty seconds after the mime helped the clown escape and got beaten up for it. BEATEN UP, not killed. Can you be at least a bit humane and understanding? You spent the whole shift bitching about me over comms while I was trying to do my best, do my job, and make contact with you as well. I think you're being a bit of a dick, honestly, instead of trying to see my point and realise that while critting you might not have been fair, I was going through some shit that round and was on the brink of running away to security and breaking my ID console as I couldn't do anything about people trying to robust me in my own office for literally being too slow at the job.

If you don't want to get criticized don't crit people for little reasoning.

That said for all intents and purposes we consider crit and murder to be the same thing in some context. Beating someone to crit for little reason especially dipping in and out of an open door office is extremely excessive, and you only let me get away because people started dragging me away.

Dax Dupont wrote:

RagingTuna wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:I would like to note that I didn't break in. Trespassing != breaking in if you really want to rule lawyer your way out of this.

I walked in while the clown and mime were long gone, the door was long hacked open.

I went in for a second and straight out. Nothing taken, nothing done. Then beat into crit for merely walking into the room. You also didn't 'let them heal me', they took me away instantly because you were still beating me.

Additionally you just came off a sec ban for executing people for the smallest of reasons which played a part in the decision making. Which also explains why your ban was longer than a day.

You got beat into crit for walking into the room and walking towards me at an absolutely horrible timing. Mate, if I wanted you dead, do you think I'd let them take you away?
I start the round and I get my office broken in so fast I couldn't even put the armor vest in time. You came in around thirty seconds after the mime helped the clown escape and got beaten up for it. BEATEN UP, not killed. Can you be at least a bit humane and understanding? You spent the whole shift bitching about me over comms while I was trying to do my best, do my job, and make contact with you as well. I think you're being a bit of a dick, honestly, instead of trying to see my point and realise that while critting you might not have been fair, I was going through some shit that round and was on the brink of running away to security and breaking my ID console as I couldn't do anything about people trying to robust me in my own office for literally being too slow at the job.

If you don't want to get criticized don't crit people for little reasoning.

That said for all intents and purposes we consider crit and murder to be the same thing in some context. Beating someone to crit for little reason especially dipping in and out of an open door office is extremely excessive, and you only let me get away because people started dragging me away.

I think I know better why I let you "get away", but as a person that absolutely refused to make contact/listen to my point I don't assume my opinion/point of view matters to you at all.
I PDAd you a million times, talked to you over comms and that all happened BEFORE I got bwoinked. Maybe I wanted to say "sorry bud, bad timing, my bad for critting you" all along? Why would I do that if I wanted you dead so much, huh?

Also if you don't mind, I'd prefer to speak to a different admin as you were involved in this appeal directly as I believe you're biased and straight up don't even try to be understanding towards me. I think you are being childish here if you believe that me being banned for three days for doing something that's not only at least somewhat understandable (even Nervere said so in ban description) due to what was happening, but is also covered in rules unless we're really going to argue semantics of "breaking in", which will depend on the dictionary you're using.

RagingTuna wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:

RagingTuna wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:I would like to note that I didn't break in. Trespassing != breaking in if you really want to rule lawyer your way out of this.

I walked in while the clown and mime were long gone, the door was long hacked open.

I went in for a second and straight out. Nothing taken, nothing done. Then beat into crit for merely walking into the room. You also didn't 'let them heal me', they took me away instantly because you were still beating me.

Additionally you just came off a sec ban for executing people for the smallest of reasons which played a part in the decision making. Which also explains why your ban was longer than a day.

You got beat into crit for walking into the room and walking towards me at an absolutely horrible timing. Mate, if I wanted you dead, do you think I'd let them take you away?
I start the round and I get my office broken in so fast I couldn't even put the armor vest in time. You came in around thirty seconds after the mime helped the clown escape and got beaten up for it. BEATEN UP, not killed. Can you be at least a bit humane and understanding? You spent the whole shift bitching about me over comms while I was trying to do my best, do my job, and make contact with you as well. I think you're being a bit of a dick, honestly, instead of trying to see my point and realise that while critting you might not have been fair, I was going through some shit that round and was on the brink of running away to security and breaking my ID console as I couldn't do anything about people trying to robust me in my own office for literally being too slow at the job.

If you don't want to get criticized don't crit people for little reasoning.

That said for all intents and purposes we consider crit and murder to be the same thing in some context. Beating someone to crit for little reason especially dipping in and out of an open door office is extremely excessive, and you only let me get away because people started dragging me away.

I think I know better why I let you "get away", but as a person that absolutely refused to make contact/listen to my point I don't assume my opinion/point of view matters to you at all.

Not even relevant to the ban anymore.
The facts are you: Crit someone for trespassing for a grand total of 3 seconds.

Dax Dupont wrote:

RagingTuna wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:

RagingTuna wrote:

Dax Dupont wrote:I would like to note that I didn't break in. Trespassing != breaking in if you really want to rule lawyer your way out of this.

I walked in while the clown and mime were long gone, the door was long hacked open.

I went in for a second and straight out. Nothing taken, nothing done. Then beat into crit for merely walking into the room. You also didn't 'let them heal me', they took me away instantly because you were still beating me.

Additionally you just came off a sec ban for executing people for the smallest of reasons which played a part in the decision making. Which also explains why your ban was longer than a day.

You got beat into crit for walking into the room and walking towards me at an absolutely horrible timing. Mate, if I wanted you dead, do you think I'd let them take you away?
I start the round and I get my office broken in so fast I couldn't even put the armor vest in time. You came in around thirty seconds after the mime helped the clown escape and got beaten up for it. BEATEN UP, not killed. Can you be at least a bit humane and understanding? You spent the whole shift bitching about me over comms while I was trying to do my best, do my job, and make contact with you as well. I think you're being a bit of a dick, honestly, instead of trying to see my point and realise that while critting you might not have been fair, I was going through some shit that round and was on the brink of running away to security and breaking my ID console as I couldn't do anything about people trying to robust me in my own office for literally being too slow at the job.

If you don't want to get criticized don't crit people for little reasoning.

That said for all intents and purposes we consider crit and murder to be the same thing in some context. Beating someone to crit for little reason especially dipping in and out of an open door office is extremely excessive, and you only let me get away because people started dragging me away.

I think I know better why I let you "get away", but as a person that absolutely refused to make contact/listen to my point I don't assume my opinion/point of view matters to you at all.

Not even relevant to the ban anymore.
The facts are you: Crit someone for trespassing for a grand total of 3 seconds.

Not even relevant that that might have been a mistake and it was completely reversible and you were fine literally one minute later in the round?
Oh, by the way, you grabbed me first IN MY OFFICE, only after which you got harmbatonned:
Stop being a child and lying about the situation, man. You didn't just "trespass for a grand total of 3 seconds", you know that very well. You fucking grabbed me in my own office on my own logs, what do you mean you were just "trespassing for a grand total of three seconds"? And what exactly do you think I'll assume about you grabbing me in my office seconds after two people broke in and tried to robust me, huh? I think what really happened is you tried to greytide me in my office, ran away as you saw me pulling my baton out, got beaten up and then proceeded to make a victim out of yourself even though YOU started it.

This fits very well under Rule 1 Precedent 5 for sure, you had no reason to grab/shove/whatever you tried to do to me in my own office at the start of that round knowing very well two shitters were trying to robust me just thirty seconds ago. And man, you know very well I'm not just a cargo tech you're shoving, I'm a bloody trying to fight off greytide in my own office and you literally trespass and grab me and get crit for it. Who could have expected that, right?

Relevant policy thread
Jury is out on proper escalation for trespass so you're basically playing adminwho roulette

Dax Dupont wrote: That said for all intents and purposes we consider crit and murder to be the same thing in some context.

No peanut here. Just a quick note on this.

My understanding is that this is indeed the case when the crit is unrecoverable or not recoverable in a reasonable amount of time.

So if I grab someone, take him to a maint, strip then crit him, that would be effective murder.

It seems you were pretty quickly healed out of crit and the HoP didn't pursue/attempt to stop the medics.

That wouldn't really fall under the crit == murder circumnstances as I understand them.

Correct me if I am wrong.

A passive grab literally does nothing. It's most likely the fact I tried to hug but had the wrong intent. Notice how there's literally no other thing.
No harm done.

So yeah a grab in the office, then you chase me down the hallway this about confirms it was less than 10 seconds of me being in there for sure.

No peanut here. Just a quick note on this.

My understanding is that this is indeed the case when the crit is unrecoverable or not recoverable in a reasonable amount of time.

So if I grab someone, take him to a maint, strip then crit him, that would be effective murder.

It seems you were pretty quickly healed out of crit and the HoP didn't pursue/attempt to stop the medics.

That wouldn't really fall under the crit == murder circumnstances as I understand them.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Critting people for little reasoning is considered a bad thing. It is indeed a situational thing, however if you have the means to non lethally to detain someone you should probably use those as a head or security. Considering the hop starts with an egun, flash, baton and cuffs...

Dax Dupont wrote:A passive grab literally does nothing. It's most likely the fact I tried to hug but had the wrong intent. Notice how there's literally no other thing.
No harm done.

So yeah a grab in the office, then you chase me down the hallway this about confirms it was less than 10 seconds of me being in there for sure.

No peanut here. Just a quick note on this.

My understanding is that this is indeed the case when the crit is unrecoverable or not recoverable in a reasonable amount of time.

So if I grab someone, take him to a maint, strip then crit him, that would be effective murder.

It seems you were pretty quickly healed out of crit and the HoP didn't pursue/attempt to stop the medics.

That wouldn't really fall under the crit == murder circumnstances as I understand them.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Critting people for little reasoning is considered a bad thing. It is indeed a situational thing, however if you have the means to non lethally to detain someone you should probably use those as a head or security. Considering the hop starts with an egun, flash, baton and cuffs...

Well, if you just wanted to hug me/didn't use wrong intent, I wouldn't have touched you in the first place. Nevertheless, I was suspicious of everybody given that people were trying to robust me, and you walked in and grabbed (I thought it was a shove, even, that's what I told Nervere to his bwoink) me in my office at an extremely bad time. But with all due respect, you grabbed me which I took negatively (who would not?) and I batonned you for that.

Later that round a guy came in my office as well, but he was not acting as suspiciously and was promoted and given the job of HoP. I'm not just being a shitter and trying to kill people left and right and I honestly don't think it's very just to ban me given the fact that you did do something which is suspicious. What if you pulled me onto soap? I don't take grabbing lightly and if that was a misunderstanding/wrong intent on your part, there's no reason to act like I just decided to kill you out of the blue.

He batonned me when I was out of his office as you can see from the logs

Honestly, HoP was dealing with greytide all shift so I can't blame him that much for overreacting.
It was still bad to crit Caroline as she barely trespassed, but I was a bit harsh, so I'm going to reduce this ban's time to a day, effectively making the ban expire immediately.
Don't do this again please.