[peoplearestrange] KangTut - Note Appeal

[Kangtut]

Byond account and character name: KangTut/Fred Best
Banning admin: peoplearestrange
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Note
Ban reason and length: 2019-07-22 08:11:16 | Bagil | Peoplearestrange
Cuffed, killed and shoved a janitor into a locked locker in the perma wing. Janitor had previously tried to welder bomb the captain after the captain told them "To Do". Security officers are not able to make calls on executions or perma sentences
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil - Round ID: 113747

Your side of the story: I was passing the bar as a sec officer when I saw the janitor set off a welder bomb next to the captain. The mime brought the captain to med bay while I took the janitor to the brig to search him. He had nothing on him and an implant check turned up nothing. The mime showed up shortly after the implant check and encouraged me to execute the janitor - which I agreed was the best course of action. We had no HoS or Warden so no one was going to be watching a perma prisoner.

Overall, this entire note hinges on players following space law and getting permission to execute dangerous crewman, which the space law page itself will tell you that it is only a guide:

This page is merely an IC roleplay suggestion
It has NOT been adopted as an official policy after two votes.
Administrators will only intervene when you are sentenced to grossly unfair times. If you get 3 minutes instead of 2, talk to the lawyer as it's considered an IC issue. If you cite Space Law in an adminhelp or anywhere outside IC communications, you will be laughed at.

This should have been an IC issue, but strange decided that I deserved a note and it would have been a job ban had I refused to clone to janitor.

[teepeepee]

I hope the following won't get deleted as peanut posting since I'm posting both policy and precedent which I believe will help resolve this situation
as stated in security policy:

...
2. Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Security are not exceptions to the rule where non-antagonists can do anything they want, as per rule 4, to antagonists.
3. The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.
...

security very much can execute people without any permission since you can do whatever to an antag, or someone who acts like it
at the very least, there's no OOC rule against it, with IC consequences, such as demotion or mutiny, left to the players' will
I believe welderbombing the captain very much qualifies as "acting as an antag"
there's also this ruling on a ban where a player tried to use space law (among other, more valid things) to justify IC consequences and was laughed at and had his appeal denied:

Space law can't be used as justification to create/defend bans, and neither can it be used to defend your actions. It's a roleplaying suggestion, but it has no relevance to our rules. Speaking of Space Law, the page for it says this, and everyone who cited it in this thread should keep it in mind: If you cite Space Law in an adminhelp or anywhere outside IC communications, you will be laughed at.
...

the big bolded emphasis is mine

[Malkraz]

Logs for this round

Was the Mime mentioned by Kang. Witnessed Darius just shitting around wordlessly with cleaner grenades and whatnot (not a big deal at all). Few minutes go by and I see him dragging around a fuel tank with an ignited welder in hand, clearly looking for a place to just grief and blow it up so I followed him. Captain may have said "Do it" when he ran into the bar with the fuel tank but it's not like this was some sort of command he had been following from a higher up, nor does somebody saying "blow a hole in the station randomly and potentially kill other players" really justify doing it as a non-antag in any situation I can think of. Attack logs don't seem to show damage dealt from welder bombs but I'm pretty sure the Bartender was caught up in the explosion partially, as well as the damage applied to him and the cooks from the space hole blown in the floor.

[peoplearestrange]

How is it escalation if you kill and remove a body after no consequence to you? The cap wasn't killed, infact IIRC no one was killed, people were injured and again the Captain literally said "DO IT" to the janitor who had just walked into the room with the tank. The cap ahelped it but took it back given that they thought it was hilarious and couldn't stop laughing.

You already had him in cuffs, in perma, but I guess you decided you were mad enough to then slowly stun bat them to death and leave them in the locked prison locker for no one to find. Sure that definitely seems like an even keel and an enjoyable interaction for players to work with.

Logs for this round
A few minutes go by and I see him dragging around a fuel tank with an ignited welder in hand, clearly looking for a place to just grief

The issue with this is, its also not straight up banable, if it was a constant grief then yes of course. However because they were killed and shoved to one side I had no way to check if they would repeat their actions and therefore act upon them.

[Calibraptor]

I was the captain. I did shout at the janitor to "DO IT", as I thought they were bluffing. Never called for the janitor's execution or anything after I got out of medbay though since I found it pretty funny.

I probably would have just had the dude gulagged if he was so bored as to run around threatening to welderbomb people as a non-antag, but I'd personally say that it'd be reasonable to permabrig/execute somebody who proves they're willing to both bomb a head of staff and a high traffic area, potentially exposing crew to the vacuum of space, which I'd say is a pretty antagonistic action.

[Kangtut]

How is it escalation if you kill and remove a body after no consequence to you? The cap wasn't killed, infact IIRC no one was killed, people were injured and again the Captain literally said "DO IT" to the janitor who had just walked into the room with the tank. The cap ahelped it but took it back given that they thought it was hilarious and couldn't stop laughing.

How is it good escalation to welder bomb a player at the slightest provocation? A welder bomb can do significant damage, opens a tile to space and can knock out everyone around it and pull them onto that space tile. While the initial explosion may not immediately kill, the damage with the knock out and being in space can. The reason no one died or went into crit due to it is due to my good timing and the mime lending a helping hand.

You already had him in cuffs, in perma

Most people are going to be in cuffs when they get executed, so that has no bearing on the situation other than to try to paint me in a bad light.

Sure that definitely seems like an even keel and an enjoyable interaction for players to work with.

As reasonable as welder bombing the highest ranking member of the station with minimal prodding to do so, causing damage to not just those two but everyone who happened to be near the explosion and harming the people who had to pull their bodies out of the space tile that was opened up. Please do explain how attempted murder and multiple assault charges isn't grounds for perma/execution.

However because they were killed and shoved to one side I had no way to check if they would repeat their actions and therefore act upon them.

Holy shit get more lube, this slope isn't slippery enough! So, basically he should have gotten away with it (presumably with only a slap on the wrist) because he may not do it again? I guess I can go and welder bomb whoever I want so long as they tell me to "do it" and I'll be free from any retaliation because I'm totally not going to do it again. As Malkraz already said, the janitor was dragging the tank around and looking for an excuse to set it off and took the flimsiest excuse to do it. He opened himself up to violent retaliation when he put other players' lives in danger. This isn't a case of escalation this is a case of someone playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes - something that should have been labeled an IC issue.

At first you tried to make this note about space law and how closely an officer should follow it, but now you have moved the goal posts and tried to turn this into an escalation issue.

[Malkraz]

The issue with this is, its also not straight up banable

which is why Kang handled it IC.

[peoplearestrange]

I'm gonna leave it to a head to decide or another admin as clearly I think I wasn't wrong giving out that note.

[deedubya]

Alright, if the "space law and chain of command" argument was used for the note, let's actually apply it here. Murder, attempted murder, grand sabotage, and mutiny are all capital offenses under space law. I'd say detonating a welder bomb next to the captain certainly falls under at least attempted murder and grand sabotage. Following that, there's the chain of command. Given as the captain was unable to authorize an execution, and there was no head of security or warden present to do so, that falls upon the judgement of the security officer in question to make the judgement.

peanut post begins here:
Is it a bit shitty that he executed someone that was already restrained and ready to go into perma? Perhaps. Was it fair of him to do so after the welderbomb? Definitely. Did he have the IC justification to do so? Most certainly.

[elyina]

Sec don't need any special IC permission to execute someone. They can kill someone for being a shit just as anyone else could, all that matters is that the escalation rules were followed. Given the guy welder bombed the captain, I'd say they were. It doesn't really matter if the guy is already restrained in perma, perma and execution have been equal to each other in the view of the rules for like 7+ years now. Instigators also do not receive protection against having their body hidden.
If the Janitor doesn't want this to happen, he can consider not welder bombing the captain next time. Actions have consequences, and can in fact result in your video game round getting ruined.

[peoplearestrange]

Hmmmm I actually see your point here.

Look I'll be frank, I like to have a kinda interal rule, where if something makes someone laugh then it should be let slide. In my eyes the captain/welder bomb was funny and the captain self confessed this. I guess I felt like executing someone for comical behaviour was kinda counter to that.

However escalation is a hard rule to follow, given its usually only used to justify actions taken upon yourself rather than others, this is what left me... conflicted?

Either way, as many people have pointed out you don't deserve the note and I'm willing to bow to others where Im wrong, specially when feedback comes from other admins I trust.


I'll remove the note.

EDIT: I'd like to also mention that the janitor didn't instigate this investigation, they said nothing and left after being hidden in the cupboard.