[MrAlphonzo] Takov - Permaban

[Takov]

Byond account and character name: Takov, Fornax IG
Banning admin:MrAlphonzo
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server, Bagil at least, haven't tried connecting to any other server other than AUTH.
Ban reason and length: "I have read all of half of your chat logs from this round and I can tell that you are trash, you have always been trash, and you will continue to be trash and will continue to harass people on the internet." Permanent.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2019-08-15 03:11:13
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: For context in the previous round the trialadmin Cynic gave a certain player shoes that constantly played a shrill "Hewwo, it's me Pepewoni" (or something, they were eventually murdered by someone else) and at some point I sent an irritated ahelp, I don't all of my exact words but it was a rhetorical question about a greytider basically getting rewarded with their own custom sound. Cynic sent a "Ye", I believe I responded with something along the lines of "Do non-greytiders get anything?" and Cynic called me butthurt over meme shoes.
Let me state this now. My irritation was not about the shoes per se, (though they were annoying, other players lynched her so...) my objection was to, from my perspective, an admin rewarding someone for bad behavior. At roundend I said in OOC "Remind me why a greytiding tranny gets custom sounds" which I admit was dumb. (In this case I was just referring to Pepper, referencing my view that they're probably a guy IRL)
Cynic is trans and didn't take it well.
I freely admit I was assholeish here and I regret it.

(Omitted: various in-game and technical stuff from the log, OOC talk that was unrelated or came from people not directly involved. I confess I didn't count all the lines removed as there's way too many to count each time since the log is so dense.)
[2019-08-15 02:22:14.884] OOC: Cynic716/(Cynic716) "yeah some guy was complaining about pepper getting meme shoes last round " (start area (8, 174, 1))
[2019-08-15 02:25:26.345] OOC: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) "OOC: Takov: Remind me why a greytiding tranny gets custom sounds" (Aft Primary Hallway (107, 112, 2))
[2019-08-15 02:26:00.923] OOC: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) "bruh you can't drop slurs over meme shoes" (Chief Engineer's Office (156, 144, 2))
[2019-08-15 02:26:12.807] OOC: Takov/(Fornax IG) ">slur >tranny" (Library (83, 123, 2))
Around here someone spawned an eyeball thing in the library (I was curator) and it said "Hewwo it's me pepepewoni" so on. I actually assumed it was Cynic but it was not, log shows it was actually Angelstarri aka Pepper put into it by a different admin.
[2019-08-15 02:27:47.865] ADMIN: ExcessiveUseOfCobby/(Aki Ito) stuffed Angelstarri into eyeball.
(Omitted: Various technical logs regarding the stuffing, eyeball becoming a big traffic cone, all of the things it constantly said, etc)
In response to what I thought was an admin bugging me unnecessarily in-game over the past round I said in OOC,
[2019-08-15 02:33:47.077] OOC: Takov/(Fornax IG) "Cynic is phimotic" (Library (83, 123, 2))
I admit that's gross and completely unnecessary, I regret and apologize.
(Omitted: various in-game stuff, I saw a firefight in which someone with a shotgun hit the traffic cone with a stray blast or two, I killed a spiderling, a spider with the HOP, traffic cone's speech, etc...)
Anuway at first I just stocked some books and wandered around a bit but eventually after realizing that the traffic cone had HP (others attacked it and at least once it was hit by stray shotgun blasts) I tried to kill it after it attacked some people, eventually getting killed by it. (I expected it to happen)
In dead chat (until corrected I still thought the traffic cone was Cynic. I was also not aware Cynic was trans at this point):

[2019-08-15 02:58:34.132] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "Admin isn't salty at all kek" (Central Primary Hallway (113, 115, 2))
[2019-08-15 02:58:39.263] SAY: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) (DEAD) "what" (CentCom Recovery Ship (200, 76, 1))
[2019-08-15 02:59:08.562] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "I insulted Cynic over giving some greytider a reward for no reason" (Port Quarter Maintenance (79, 106, 2))
[2019-08-15 02:59:17.102] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "He's extremely salty" (Auxiliary Restrooms (66, 128, 2))
[2019-08-15 02:59:21.594] SAY: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) (DEAD) "I'M CYNIC" (Thunderdome Arena (168, 46, 1))
[2019-08-15 02:59:26.911] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "Ah" (Library (83, 121, 2))
[2019-08-15 02:59:27.688] SAY: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) (DEAD) "AND I'M A SH E" (Thunderdome Arena (168, 46, 1))
[2019-08-15 02:59:34.144] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "You're totally a guy" (Library (83, 121, 2))
[2019-08-15 02:59:58.082] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "That or you're a """she"""" (Captain's Quarters (117, 130, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:01:23.960] SAY: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) (DEAD) "Hey Fornax" (Captain's Quarters (116, 128, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:01:27.105] SAY: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) (DEAD) "You fuck" (Medbay Central (94, 106, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:01:35.435] SAY: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) (DEAD) "What do you mean by "she" :)" (Chief Medical Officer's Office (94, 98, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:01:34.914] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "Hmmst?" (Chief Medical Officer's Office (94, 98, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:01:51.456] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "Oh yeah, you actually think "tranny" is a slur." (Central Primary Hallway (121, 116, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:02:02.385] SAY: Cynic716/(Sheri Ruiz) (DEAD) "it.....literally is" (Central Primary Hallway (104, 114, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:02:12.420] SAY: Takov/(Fornax IG) (DEAD) "Mutilating your dick does not make you a girl" (Central Primary Hallway (90, 144, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:02:24.497] GAME: *no key*/(Fornax IG) *no key*/(Fornax IG) is no longer owning mob Fornax IG(/mob/dead/observer) (Port Primary Hallway (84, 134, 2))
[2019-08-15 03:02:24.497] ACCESS: Mob Login: Takov/(Fornax IG) was assigned to a /mob/living/carbon/human

At this point I got cloned. Then I just wandered around, shot foam darts a couple people with a donksoft smg, talked in other languages, asked if the AI could understand me, etc.
(Omitted: Several admins checking my individual player panel in the logs, no need to name all of them I think)

I was in a hallway when my ban from MrAlphonzo hit.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Firstly I do apologize and shall never use that slur again, I recognize that it is indeed harmful and that my statements were unnecessary.
However, "I have read all of half of your chat logs from this round and I can tell that you are trash, you have always been trash, and you will continue to be trash and will continue to harass people on the internet."

I have never harassed anyone on the internet. "always been trash" is patently false, I've slaved away more than a few rounds as a medical doctor, just filling the library as a curator, playing the piano in the bar, mining as a golem, etc. I may give people shit over the radio at times but I never act on it, to me it's no different than saying "Mime talked, lynch!". I don't greytide, metagrudge, randomly attack Security as a non-antag, set rooms on fire minutes after joining a round, break into R&D and steal all the materials, I could go on. And I've seen people do all of the above seemingly without punishment or warning, at times repeatedly. At worst I salt a bit when certain players greytide round after round, simply remarking that they always do this shit.
I've at least one person nearly every insult that I've used, and if we're talking slurs the n-word is said no small amount in both IC and OOC, sometimes even directed at admins. Insulting people is almost reflexive to many, end round OOC usually has people calling each other fucking idiots and sometimes spills over into next round's roundstart OOC.

Furthermore, I'm not trying to nitpick but looking at the rules Rule 1 says nothing about stuff said in deadchat or OOC. In fact the rules say nothing about deadchat, neither do any of the rulings.
I only made that one gross comment in OOC mid-round because I thought it was her in that traffic cone trying to bug me over last round, it was not a random attack but a response. Insults are not that strange of a sight in deadchat. My first things said in OOC was irritation aimed at Pepper then responding to Cynic. My mid-round gross comment was in response to what I incorrectly thought was done by Cynic. My words in deadchat were salt as I thought Cynic was the traffic cone and then all in response to Cynic who was in fact in deadchat. That's not harassment.

Although I won't use that slur again, slurs are not in fact banned and plenty of times they're used in a dickish manner. And a permaban for things said in deadchat on TGstation? I'm sorry, but what the hell?



Logs from: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... 019-08.zip
\month.2019-08\15\round-116024\game.txt

Disclosure: I did bring up my ban in the Discord, however I didn't expect an unban (obviously) or simply want to stir shit up, I was genuinely curious to see opinions on what happened and think on them. (It didn't take too long for the channel to go back to regular shitposting anyway)

[MrAlphonzo]

I'm taking out the trash.

You did harass someone on the internet, that is why you were banned. Your IC actions are unrelated to your transphobic OOC conduct that was inexcusable.

You initially compared what you did and have continued to compare what you did to the normal use of slurs on the server, which is inaccurate.

You did not just use a slur, you harassed an admin for being trans, repeatedly.

There is nothing in this appeal that shows me you have learned anything, and I am denying it.

[Takov]

I'm taking out the trash.

You did harass someone on the internet, that is why you were banned. Your IC actions are unrelated to your transphobic OOC conduct that was inexcusable.

You initially compared what you did and have continued to compare what you did to the normal use of slurs on the server, which is inaccurate.

You did not just use a slur, you harassed an admin for being trans, repeatedly.

There is nothing in this appeal that shows me you have learned anything, and I am denying it.

I understand that what I said was hurtful and wrong. I've already promised to never say that word again and I promise to never personally attack someone again like this. I apologized to the admin in question if that means anything, I understand if it doesn't. I've given a lot of thought to what happened and what discussion occurred in Discord. I realize what I was said was genuinely hurtful and unnecessary.
Is there nothing I can do?

[Nervere]

This ban looks somewhat fine to me because of the harassment aspects.
I haven't read the past week of people bitching about slurs, but we don't ban for that. No one gives a fuck about slurs, this isn't G**nstation.
The problem, hence the ban, is the repeated and targeted harassment of someone. We've had a lot of recent cases of users going out of their way to harass people they don't like.
I'm tired of it, the admins are tired of it, and at this point it has become a quality control issue. Permabanning someone for harassment seems awful weird, though, I'd like to hear more from Alphonzo on that.
It's not like he had a particularly bad history:

Spoiler:

I would appreciate the line of thinking from Alphonzo here as I don't think this ban would have been indefinite was it not for the transphobia aspect, when IMO what should be considered more importantly is the harassment.

[MrAlphonzo]

Targeted harassment as shown in the logs above goes above and beyond breaking rule 1, and the fact that the only provocation needed for such an outburst was clown shoes with an edited sound effect led me to believe that the player in question will not positively contribute to the server for the forseeable future.

Multiple administrators sharing their opinions on Takov only reinforced my perspective, but this was afterwards.

The ban was for harassment, and has always been for harassment.

[Takov]

Targeted harassment as shown in the logs above goes above and beyond breaking rule 1, and the fact that the only provocation needed for such an outburst was clown shoes with an edited sound effect led me to believe that the player in question will not positively contribute to the server for the forseeable future.

Multiple administrators sharing their opinions on Takov only reinforced my perspective, but this was afterwards.

The ban was for harassment, and has always been for harassment.

But does it have to be permanent? I've apologized, I've pledged never to use that word again, I said I regretted what I did in my very first post.

If it means anything, I've seen multiple administrators disagree with the ban length as well elsewhere. (Only bringing up other admins because you brought them up, apologies.)

[wubli]

We have decided to overturn MrAlphonzo's decision and shorten this to a 15 day ban. You will be unbanned on August 30th.
I want you to understand something: it's very hard to believe that you truly regret it, and that you don't actually just regret being caught. But the way this ban was handled was not the way it should've been, as in, it shouldn't have been a permanent ban.
We don't have rules against bigotry, but we do have rules against being a dick. Cynic told you that they were not a he, and you decided to keep going on with that, outright telling them that "mutilating their dick does not make them a girl". This was seen as harassment by MrAlphonzo, and I agree, and he decided to apply a permaban.
Slurs are not banned. Going out of your way to target someone who's telling you to respect their gender, and calling them slurs, is what turned it into a ban.
This is not about Cynic being an admin either. I have previously been complained about for banning someone for telling a south african player that "white south africans deserved to be raped", because of policing, or whatever. I want to make it very clear that the line is drawn when you're targetting someone who's not part of your banter.
I hope you understand the point of this post. You can ask any questions if you need, otherwise, I'll be locking it soon.