[Multiple] Tornadium - Appeal

[Tornadai]

Byond account and character name: Tornadium - No Idea (Was 4-5 Years Ago)
Banning admin: Multiple (Ausops was the last one)
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server - Permanent
Ban reason and length: Permanent - Escalating Series of Clusterfucks on my end and targeted bans on Ausops/Saegs/Scones end
Time ban was placed (including time zone): No Idea (Was 4-5 Years Ago)
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): No Idea (Was 4-5 Years Ago)
Your side of the story:
There's really no point me going into detail here. I handled the whole thing poorly as did Ausops/Scones/Saeg, They lied and tried to get targetted bans through while I acted like an ass instead of like a rational human being. Shit situation from start to finish. No excuses, No side to my story to tell as it's been told a dozen times already and to be honest posting the whole story would be of negative value.


Why you think you should be unbanned:

No real reason beyond the fact that I never had a single problem on TG playing for nearly 4 years prior to encountering Ausops again on TG after our disagreement in Pandemic Legion and I haven't had a single issue (beyond a MP Job ban on CM for going AFK which was very swiftly resolved). Quote from that thread :

"From my interactions with Tornadium he's been nothing but reasonable and pleasant when I've spoken to him as a mod, and in all regards he's a good player. I find the excuse given completely reasonable and understandable, besides which MPs going SSD is never a disaster anyway, as they can easily be cryo'd and the role freed up."

I haven't caused issues on any other server and I have had no issues to my knowledge, There may have been notes or comments but I am certainly not aware of them and no action has been taken against me outside of that one ban because I had to quickly leave for personal reasons. It's been 4-5 years since the ban was applied. I feel that if I was a "Flight Risk" or this was some kind of pattern of behaviour then something would have happened on other servers, Every appeal I've made has been rejected with "You haven't changed" but I'm not really sure what I need to change considering nothing has happened elsewhere.

I reached out to a Headmin before posting this, As I said then I'd be more than happy to have a conversation and discuss this rather than relying on a forum thread. Much easier to fully talk through it in 5-10 minutes and clear up any misunderstandings or issues that may arrise as a result.

Thanks

Edit : To clarify, Made a new account because I don't have access to the email account that is assigned to my old forum account. Not trying to evade.

[Hulkamania]

Have you been playing on any other servers since this ban has occurred with any level of regularity? You've mentioned CM of course, but have you continued to play actively on their server or any other? Frankly I don't really care about the he said/she said drama regarding EVE online as that game breeds personal political issues at its core.

As an administrator on this server I am mainly concerned that when I check your record I see that you have 17 notes, no small portion of those being bans themselves. I would like to see strong evidence that if you were allowed to rejoin the /tg/ playerbase as a whole this kind of behavior would not continue once you did.

[Tornadai]

Have you been playing on any other servers since this ban has occurred with any level of regularity? You've mentioned CM of course, but have you continued to play actively on their server or any other? Frankly I don't really care about the he said/she said drama regarding EVE online as that game breeds personal political issues at its core.

As an administrator on this server I am mainly concerned that when I check your record I see that you have 17 notes, no small portion of those being bans themselves. I would like to see strong evidence that if you were allowed to rejoin the /tg/ playerbase as a whole this kind of behavior would not continue once you did.

Played on a few different servers over the years but admittedly I haven't been incredibly active on other servers apart from CM. That would be by far the one I have been most active on. I've played on Paradise, Yog, Some of the Fallout Servers on occasion but honestly not enough to establish a pattern of behaviour.

Yeah that's fair, I understand that you probably don't really view it as relevant. It's important context I feel to highlight that there is evidence for targeted bans and evidence fabrication (There are linked logs for this in previous appeals) which while not excusing how I handled it at least show that it wasn't just a one sided thing.

If you're looking for strong evidence I guess all I have to offer is that I've had no issues playing on CM, I played on TG for 4 years before all of this happened where I had two notes in that time and one was me reporting myself for making a mistake. Since this all happened I also haven't had any problems anywhere I've played, The entire situation was a shitshow from start to finish on both sides. The only thing that has changed in 8+ years of me playing is the administrators involved and the servers I play on. The ban itself was more from me pissing the admin team off by how I handled it rather than the rules that were broken, I was under the impression that a number of those notes were lifted by Kor after the bans were placed, especially the one where I was banned for apparent metagaming when scones lied about me checking mesons for thermals. I guess I understand the anger I caused though by how I handled the situations.

If you need me to have more playtime on other servers then I guess there really isn't anything I can do because my playtime is limited due to work.

Thanks

[Tornadai]

If anyone needs any additional information for this appeal let me know, I'm also available on Discord pretty much any time so if anyone wants to chat for 5-10 minutes I'm always free and happy to.

No rush on the appeal, Happy to wait.

Thanks

[Krusvik]

I'm giving this until the end of the month, if there have been no meaningful replies or follow up investigations I'm forced to assume the ban stands.

[Tornadai]

I hope this doesn't come across as rude but is it normal to close appeals due to lack of response from the Admin Team?

If it's the new norm that's absolutely fine but seems a bit odd to close an appeal because no one is responding.

[Stickymayhem]

Previous appeals for context (Appeals linking to previous appeals linking to previous appeals it's a long hole): https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18883

Long story short he's been around for years and is without exception the single worst person to have any kind of adminhelp conversation with (And you'll have them), whether he's reporting something or defending himself.

He is infamous for how difficult any conversation with him is and it's so fundamentally linked to his personality it's really hard to justify unbanning him. This is why although he seems to have a relatively small number of bans/notes for someone permabanned for years very few admins who've interacted with him will ever recommend giving it another shot. He's had several.

Hopefully this isn't peanut, but added context since no one else has and the current headmins may not be personally familiar with all this.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm mostly neutral on this and maybe he's changed, but there's the context.

[Tornadai]

Previous appeals for context (Appeals linking to previous appeals linking to previous appeals it's a long hole): https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18883

Long story short he's been around for years and is without exception the single worst person to have any kind of adminhelp conversation with (And you'll have them), whether he's reporting something or defending himself.

He is infamous for how difficult any conversation with him is and it's so fundamentally linked to his personality it's really hard to justify unbanning him. This is why although he seems to have a relatively small number of bans/notes for someone permabanned for years very few admins who've interacted with him will ever recommend giving it another shot. He's had several.

Hopefully this isn't peanut, but added context since no one else has and the current headmins may not be personally familiar with all this.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm mostly neutral on this and maybe he's changed, but there's the context.

This context and summary is pretty accurate,

I would argue that it had entirely everything to do with the people involved compared to an inherent personality issue. I've had zero issues on other servers and no issues on TG prior to the fiasco back in 2016, When you say I had multiple chances we're getting to grey areas as some of the bans were lifted for being based on false information. I certainly do have a lot of notes in a very short period of time (Two in 4-5 years prior to this) and I certainly didn't handle it well however I don't feel that is enough to say I am the single worst person to have an adminhelp conversation with.

Hell I've had adminhelp conversations on other servers (CM for example) and never had a problem, It's infact been noted that I am very pleasant to deal with. I haven't had a single ban or anything approaching a bannable issue on any other server I've played on and haven't had a single negative interaction with any server staff prior to 2016 on TG or on any server since.

The attitudes of the staff involved certainly didn't help my me measure my response and I will happily admit I handled it poorly, especially after the time Ausops Saeg and Scones tried to falsify logs and lie about my actions to force a ban through until NikNak actually went and pulled the logs. From that point on I certainly did myself no favours in how I conducted myself, I tend not to show any respect to those who show me none which I realise contributed a LOT to the situation we are in at the moment. I was absolutely convinced I was getting targeted by members of the team which is why I tried to defend myself as aggressively as I did.

As I said if you want to have a conversation with me I'm more than happy.

[NikNakFlak]

Have to say the fact that you still bring up old shit that is "false" when the only one to ever been proved that was the scones ban by me, I dunno it seems you still haven't learned and never will. I've never been overly involved in your history and I still think you don't deserve any chances.

[Krusvik]

This doesn't reflect my opinion, just my personal experience:

You were the single most horrendous player/admin experience I've ever had when I started as a trialmin back in 2015. You dragged our ahelps into OOC trying to start a mob and refused to acknowledge me, only referring to me as a trialmin who didn't know their place.

Furthering my personal experience, I never want to see another trialmin have to deal with you.

Outside of my experience, you do this every new term and your argument stays the same, it's hard to believe you're a different person now after watching you chase this dragon in circles all these years.

[Tornadai]

Have to say the fact that you still bring up old shit that is "false" when the only one to ever been proved that was the scones ban by me, I dunno it seems you still haven't learned and never will. I've never been overly involved in your history and I still think you don't deserve any chances.

Hi NikNak,

There were other cases as I'm sure you are aware which were also placed based on poor/false information which I'm sure you could look up. The one with Scones is just the most notable and the one that is absolutely irrefutable. It's important context but still.

What would you like me to learn, I've asked you several times over the years but I just get a snarky answer. If you'd like to have a friendly discussion I'd be more than happy.

This doesn't reflect my opinion, just my personal experience:

You were the single most horrendous player/admin experience I've ever had when I started as a trialmin back in 2015. You dragged our ahelps into OOC trying to start a mob and refused to acknowledge me, only referring to me as a trialmin who didn't know their place.

Furthering my personal opinion, I never want to see another trialmin have to deal with you.

Outside of my experience, you do this every new term and your argument stays the same, it's hard to believe you're a different person now after watching you chase this dragon in circles all these years.

Hi Krusvik,

I'm going to be honest I really don't remember this happening. If it did happen I'm very sorry, That's completely unacceptable and I crossed a line. I don't doubt for a second if this is true then you caught Flak when trying to be helpful, Unfortunately by this point I was absolutely convinced I was being targeted by the Ausops,Saeg,Scones clique and my attitude was horrible.

So for what it's worth years later, Sorry.

I'm going to be again completely honest, I have not changed as a person. The reason my argument stays the same is because I'm telling the truth, I have never hidden the fact that I handled it like an asshole. I know the truth paints me in a horrible light but again it's the truth. It would probably be cause for concern if my story kept changing. There wasn't a whole lot of love lost between me and the admin team at that time, I didn't show ANY respect after the Scones incident because I was convinced I was being targeted and after that when I had some proof things just got worse.

Since you've added your own personal opinion, I'd like you to give me your brutally honest opinion. Why do you think I was able to play on this server for 4-5 years with only two minor notes on my account before this and why do you think I've had no issues on other servers in the time since?

I genuinely would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

[Tornadai]

Sorry to double post,

I just want to highlight before it gets taken out of context. If I offer an explaination or try to give details I am not trying to excuse or justify my actions. I feel like a lot of the anger I get in these appeals is because people think I am trying to excuse my actions.

I am not, I'm simply trying to explain my side of the story.

Thanks

[Krusvik]

Notes, 17

2013-06-12 00:00:00
hbk2006
Sybil
Banned - Accidental bombing- reduced ban 2 hours for honesty and coming to us first.

2013-10-13 00:00:00
giacomand
Sybil
Banned for 30 minutes - Released the singularity, accidental or not.

2015-06-19 00:00:00
lollerderby
Sybil
As RD, crit someone for breaking into EVA.

2015-06-21 00:00:00
ikarrus
Sybil
Asshole from years ago. Don't take any of his crap and ban him if he starts giving you shit.

2015-06-21 00:00:00
ikarrus
Sybil
Warned - Permabrigging someone for inconveniencing him

2015-06-21 00:00:00
ikarrus
Sybil
Banned from Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer - Permabrigged someone for seemingly inconveniencing him, threw a tanrum and suicided.

2015-06-21 00:00:00
ikarrus
Sybil
Banned from Captain - Permabrigged someone for seemingly inconveniencing him, threw a tanrum and suicided.

2015-06-22 00:00:00
korphaeron
Sybil
If he refuses to answer admin PMs again/complains afterward I'm banning him for a long time

2015-06-29 00:00:00
subtlegraces
Sybil
As SO - Used paper-thin reasoning (and what I suspect to be outright lies) to justify executing a Mime with the blob; later perma-brigging that Mime when told they obviously couldn't do this. Argued for days, referencing the parts of Space Law that justify him and ignoring or dismissing those that don't.(Also will appeal to a Headmin regardless of the situation, be ready to argue on IRC)

2015-07-15 00:00:00
quartzcrystal
Sybil
Has been acting quite shitty as security lately to the point where people are bringing it up in deadchat consistently.

2015-10-12 15:41:39
shaps
Sybil
Banned for 1440 minutes - Randomly attacked and tried to abduct an assistant in maint for having a piece of paper, when said assistant tried to fight back to defend themselves, Tornadium jumped straight to lethals and killed the assistant and was dragging the body towards the chef when I bwoinked him. Argued that killing someone for trying to defend themselves after being randomly attacked in maint just for holding a piece of paper was valid escalation, which it absolutely isn't. has a history of shitty escalation.

2015-11-23 17:18:56
korphaeron
Sybil
As warden killed the borgs for trying to take a cuffed traitor to medbay, then got into a fight with the HoS when he tried to revive the borgs, eventually taking him hostage until he walked into an n20 flood and they both died. Seems like this happens way too often with him and borgs/other sec members so I'm making a note.

2016-03-21 21:14:01
hornygranny
Sybil
MEGA PROBATION: If he does ANYTHING wrong throw him out. This extends to being a pain in the ass outside of the game.

2016-06-25 11:46:33
krusvik
Sybil
Attempted to mutiny against the captain for cloning traitors, appeared as "Unknown" when he attacked the captain. CMO intervened and arrested him, causing no harm. Later, Tornadium stormed onto the bridge in alleged search for the captain and instead tazed the CMO and a revived antag. Stuncuffed the CMO and dragged him into maint, told him "Let's see how you like it," and stripcuffed him outside of a solarpanel airlock. The CMO remained here without a way to escape or communicate for fifteen minutes before Tornadium was arrested and confessed the location of the CMO. While questioning him, he was unnecessarily hostile, and refused to accept or admit he was wrong about anything (in addition to attempting to quote our PMs to OOC before being OOC muted), including how it may be unfair and spiteful to detain the CMO for over 10 minutes for acting rationally to an unknown attempting to arrest the captain. Long note due to previous note.

2016-06-28 17:36:51
okand37
/tg/Station Bagil [ENGLISH] [100
Note - Extremely entitled attitude in adminhelps. If they continue, please warn them with a moderate ban.

2016-07-09 15:53:10
ausops
Sybil
(MANUAL BAN) Failing terms of HG's probation. "2016-03-21 21:14:01 | Sybil | hornygranny MEGA PROBATION: If he does ANYTHING wrong throw him out. This extends to being a pain in the ass outside of the game." Notes by Krusvik and Okand as well as recent forum behaviour indicates little has changed.

Bans, 30 (some of these count as role bans so this number is inflated)

2012-07-22 14:40:18
calasmere
Server
15 Minutes
OOC in IC.

2012-12-01 06:48:13
tanknut
Server
1440 Minutes
Joined as a lategame HoS and implied several times that he was a latejoin HoS and couldn't be a traitor. "Marcos Kirk (Head of Security) [144.9] asks, "Do you think that a late join HoS is going to subvert or wipe you?""

2013-06-12 13:47:55
hbk2006
Server
120 Minutes
Accidental bombing- reduced ban 2 hours for honesty and coming to us first.

2013-10-13 08:22:41
giacomand
Server
30 Minutes
Released the singularity, accidental or not. Appears to be accidental - scaredy.

2015-06-21 11:31:17
ikarrus
Security Officer, Detective, Warden, HoS, Captain
Permanent
Permabrigged someone for seemingly inconveniencing him, threw a tanrum and suicided.
Unbanned by korphaeron, 2015-06-22 12:59:14

2015-07-03 16:55:26
tedward1337
Security Officer, Detective, Warden, HoS
10800 Minutes
Was upset over a ruling the HoS made. Proceeded to stun, cuff, and drag him around while shooting a 10mm into his dragged captive.
Unbanned by korphaeron, 2015-07-03 18:12:02

2015-07-22 02:05:12
saegrimr
Security Officer, Detective, Warden, HoS
Permanent
You take security way too seriously. Executing prisoners without chain of command, metagaming possible traitor items, and just all around being shitcurity at its finest. Appeal this when you've learned to play the game without a "Gotta Win At Space!" attitude.
Unbanned by korphaeron, 2015-07-23 02:09:17

2015-07-30 04:46:34
hotelbravolima
Server
Permanent
(MANUAL BAN) Rule 0. Constant endless arguments about every issue, even when specifically agreed you wouldn't do that any more. Not capable of even considering you're wrong. So warnings don't matter, and timed/job bans are pointless, what exactly else can we do? Try other servers.
Unbanned by hotelbravolima, 2015-08-14 14:28:35

2015-08-14 14:35:37
hotelbravolima
Server
43200 Minutes
(MANUAL BAN) Rule 0. Constant endless arguments about every issue, even when specifically agreed you wouldn't do that any more. Not capable of even considering you're wrong. So consider this the final warning you'll ever get
Unbanned by hotelbravolima, 2015-08-17 19:34:14

2015-08-14 14:39:07
hotelbravolima
Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer
(MANUAL BAN) Personality type wholly unsuited for Security in the 'can't believe he's ever wrong and has endless arguments when wrong' variety. This needs to change before you get your badge back.
Unbanned by hotelbravolima, 2015-08-17 19:34:12

2015-10-12 15:41:49
shaps
Server
1440 Minutes
Randomly attacked and tried to abduct an assistant in maint for having a piece of paper, when said assistant tried to fight back to defend themselves, Tornadium jumped straight to lethals and killed the assistant and was dragging the body towards the chef when I bwoinked him. Argued that killing someone for trying to defend themselves after being randomly attacked in maint just for holding a piece of paper was valid escalation, which it absolutely isn't. has a history of shitty escalation.

2015-12-13 11:19:02
ausops
Server
Permanent
(MANUAL BAN) Attitude towards the game unsuitable for playing security on this server or on this server in general.
Unbanned by hornygranny, 2016-03-21 21:14:23

2016-07-09 15:53:19
ausops
Server
Permanent
MANUAL BAN) Failing terms of HG's probation. "2016-03-21 21:14:01 | Sybil | hornygranny MEGA PROBATION: If he does ANYTHING wrong throw him out. This extends to being a pain in the ass outside of the game." Notes by Krusvik and Okand as well as recent forum behaviour indicates little has changed.

This is our entire history with you, warts and all. I don't know where the two minor notes in question are, nor do I have any contact with the other servers you have played with. You asked for a brutally honest opinion, and I could think of no better way than to show you what I see when you tell me you have not changed as a person.

Thank you for the apology.

[Tornadai]

2013-06-12 00:00:00
hbk2006
Sybil
Banned - Accidental bombing- reduced ban 2 hours for honesty and coming to us first.

2013-10-13 00:00:00
giacomand
Sybil
Banned for 30 minutes - Released the singularity, accidental or not.

I was referring specifically to these two. I wasn't aware I had two other notes but pleased to be able to see them, I would also count OOC in IC as being minor but that's entirely down to interpretation.

I know I haven't changed as a person, I openly said that in the post above. My question was why I was able to play on this server for years without issue and why I've been able to play on other servers without similar issues arising without chanigng as a person.

[Krusvik]

My question was why I was able to play on this server for years without issue and why I've been able to play on other servers without similar issues arising without chanigng as a person.

Why does Chewbacca live on Endor?

[Tornadai]

My question was why I was able to play on this server for years without issue and why I've been able to play on other servers without similar issues arising without chanigng as a person.

Why does Chewbacca live on Endor?

It makes no sense; it doesn't fit; if it doesn't fit, you must acquit

[Nervere]

CM didn't have much to say about you beyond you having some recent activity on their servers.
I don't know why you expect to be unbanned when you're claiming you haven't changed. That's like the worst thing to say in an appeal.
Your awful history speaks for itself, not a single admin that I've spoken with who knew you as a player has anything positive to say about you. I'm especially unsympathetic to your appeal when you're still pretending your ban was because of some EVE drama with Ausops, and not because you were a player incapable of following the rules.

Your appeal is denied. Please do not bother appealing for another year, when you are willing to change as a person and accept you were not banned because of EVE.