[Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

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John_Gobbel
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:55 pm
Byond Username: CAPTTLasky

[Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by John_Gobbel » #508569

*Edited to correct several small formatting issues*

[Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky

BYOND Account: CAPTTLasky
Character Name: John Gobbel
Note Type: Temporary Note
Note Length: Expires 2019-10-20 08:13:49
Ban Reason: As a security officer in a stressful situation, executed and then cremated a virologist who was trying to get all access from a HoPmime, after said person had previously been gulagged for getting AA from a dead HoP who they had no part in killing. This is an overescalation for a security officer when there is a warden and other command available to decide the fate of the troublemaker.
Time Ban Was Placed: 2019-08-20 08:13:45
Server You Were Playing on When Banned: Bagil
Round ID in Which Ban Was Placed: 116547


Your Side of the Story: I will be going through this step by step using the logs from the round here: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... 116547.zip

Code: Select all

Relevant Individuals:
[2019-08-20 06:24:06.191] stillplant \ Ryder Spock \ Warden \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART
[2019-08-20 06:24:06.558] athath \ Oganesson IV \ Virologist \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART
[2019-08-20 06:24:06.782] griffindeluna \ Macie Vader \ Medical Doctor \ brother \ ROUNDSTART
[2019-08-20 06:24:07.264] capttlasky \ John Gobbel \ Security Officer \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART
[2019-08-20 06:24:07.700] istoprocent \ Krokodil \ Security Officer \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART
[2019-08-20 06:24:08.073] firefirefire3 \ Vigil Dawson \ Captain \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART
[2019-08-20 06:24:08.536] calibraptor \ Sal Ami \ Head of Personnel \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART
[2019-08-20 06:59:21.579] RearKing \ Loud Whispers \ Mime \ NONE \ LATEJOIN
[2019-08-20 07:13:47.011] Thoroughwort \ Benny Liquid \ Detective \ NONE \ LATEJOIN

My interactions with the individual who I cremated (Oganesson IV, ckey: ATHATH) started after I and a fellow officer killed what we thought to be an antagonist after said individual robbed the officer of all they had, was arrested, came back to security with the officer's old corpse, and then attempted to assault both I and the other officer. We dragged him up to the brig when ATHATH started speaking


[Please note I'll be removing irrelevant sneezing and conversations elsewhere]
[2019-08-20 07:22:01.192] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "oi" (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 157, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:03.018] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "what" (Fore Primary Hallway (108, 158, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:03.885] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I would like" (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 157, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:06.225] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "to save that patient" (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 157, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:10.987] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "he's already dead" (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 159, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:13.547] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I know" (Fore Primary Hallway (108, 158, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:16.363] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I want to revive him" (Fore Primary Hallway (109, 159, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:19.435] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "no" (Brig (110, 163, 2))

[At this point ATHATH enters a restricted area without permission in order to continue attempting to let me revive the individual]

[2019-08-20 07:22:26.728] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "why not" (Brig (106, 167, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:28.148] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Brig is restricted sir" (Brig (105, 166, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:29.765] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Get the fuck out" (Brig (105, 166, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:35.784] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Because this man has been harassing security all shift" (Brig (105, 166, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:37.320] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "answer the question" (Brig (106, 166, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:39.101] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "And just stole a stun baton" (Brig (105, 166, 2))

[At this point I could have arrested him for trespassing but decided not to. I didn't believe that he was attempting to commit a crime yet but did think it strange that he wanted to revive the individual who had been clearly antagonistic towards security]

[2019-08-20 07:22:41.418] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "then borg him" (Brig (106, 166, 2))

[I was also suspicious over the fact that ATHATH wanted to borg the individual. Not knowing of the full situation, I could only assume that he wanted him to be borged because he knew the AI was subverted. The AI had started plasmaflooding security earlier and the suspicion was high that it was subverted. Later on it was discovered that it was, multiple times.]

[2019-08-20 07:22:43.124] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "So he's staying dead" (Brig (105, 166, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:22:44.014] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Nah" (Brig (105, 166, 2))

[At this point I leave the center of the brig to go deposit the body somewhere he could not find it in security.]

[2019-08-20 07:22:51.343] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "don't just leave his corpse to rot" (Brig (103, 166, 2))

[ATHATH continues to ignore the fact that he is in a restricted area despite being warned and goes to the back prison wing illegally]

[2019-08-20 07:23:13.831] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "bruh" (Prison Wing (84, 180, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:23:14.351] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Leave the brig sir" (Prison Wing (86, 181, 2))

[The warden joins us, the other officer who helped me dispatch the perp also joins]

[2019-08-20 07:23:20.985] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "warden" (Brig (97, 178, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:23:25.238] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "how can you tolerate this conduct" (Brig (98, 167, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:23:27.719] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "among your officers" (Brig (98, 167, 2))

[Having no context as to why the man was killed, he starts attempting to get security to fight one another]

[2019-08-20 07:23:30.128] SAY: Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "Good shootin." (Prison Wing (88, 181, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:23:39.661] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "you made it easy" (Prison Wing (89, 180, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:23:44.289] SAY: Stillplant/(Ryder Spock) "I'll see the corpse turned over to the capel for burial" (Brig (99, 167, 2))

[A conversation between the Warden and I occurs, as I thought that the warden was attempting to borg the perp. The warden was obviously newer (left the brig many, many, MANY times that shift) so I was trying to help them out all round]
[ATHATH proceeds to try to turn the crew against security over radio (my talks with the CE still in brig omitted)]

[2019-08-20 07:25:21.441] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "john gobbels has decided that emmanuel doesn't deserve to live" (Central Primary Hallway (94, 115, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:25:32.168] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "and has both killed him and prevented me from defibbing him" (Central Primary Hallway (108, 115, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:25:50.539] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "the warden has promised to give him a burial in the chapel, though" (Central Primary Hallway (113, 115, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:25:57.685] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "and I will hold him to that promise" (Research Division (109, 109, 2))

[Announcing to the crew that security has apparently unfairly killed someone is generally considered inciting a riot, especially when the AI is asimov, but I ignore that it's a crime this time because it would be a dick to go and arrest him for that. Instead I attempt to diffuse over comms]

[2019-08-20 07:26:22.311] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Fuck off Plasmeme" (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:26:36.803] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "You have no idea what that perp has been doing, don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong" (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))

[Less than a minute after this, the HoP is called out as being dead over radio. I rush over to find ATHATH on top of the HoP's corpse getting All Access.]

[2019-08-20 07:26:59.785] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shoved ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (96, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:00.618] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shoved ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:20.436] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "bro" (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 132, 2))

[2019-08-20 07:27:03.358] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has stunned ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:03.866] ATTACK: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) has stunned CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) with the defibrillator paddles (Wielded) (NEWHP: 94)  (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:09.459] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Backup HoP" (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:15.803] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has stunned ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:20.159] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has stunned ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:21.801] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "bro" (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:25.131] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I didn't kill this dude" (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:26.426] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has handcuffed ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:30.577] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "someone else already put his ID in the console" (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 132, 2))

[After being cuffed ATHATH still attempts to run away and resist arrest further, leading me to grab another sec member ( I believe it was the detective) while trying to grab him)]

[2019-08-20 07:27:49.004] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has grabbed Thoroughwort/(Benny Liquid) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (96, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:51.509] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has grabbed ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:27:54.738] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "okay asshole" (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 132, 2))


[At this point ATHATH starts talking on common channel with the HoP's looted headset, attempting to get others to lynch security.]

[2019-08-20 07:27:55.827] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "so" (Head of Personnel's Office (93, 132, 2))

[There are others on the scene now. I proceed to strip and confiscate any contraband I find. Only thing I could find directly on him was his all access id (which I had tried to test by throwing him against the door, which did not work because the ID was in a wallet) I did not perform a full search as ATHATH was attempting to incite a riot and I knew I needed to get them to security ( I could not remove the headset as they were a plasmaman)]

[2019-08-20 07:27:59.058] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I literally" (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:01.917] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has stripped the backpack off ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:03.017] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "walked in here" (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:08.347] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Get the HoPs stuff secured and get him cloned" (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:08.350] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "gave myself AA using the self-serve AA" (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:11.872] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "and have been arrested" (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:18.154] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "meanwhile, the actual person who gave out the AA" (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:19.131] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "The HoP was dead, it wasn't self serve" (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:20.481] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "remains at large" (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:21.413] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "You're going to jail" (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:22.009] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "this is epic" (Head of Personnel's Office (95, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:31.784] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has attacked ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with backpack (INTENT: GRAB) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:33.408] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has grabbed ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:34.579] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has thrown ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) grab from tile in Head of Personnel's Office (91, 133, 2) towards tile at Head of Personnel's Office (90, 132, 2) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:34.580] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has thrown Oganesson IV (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:36.160] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has grabbed ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:37.598] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "bro why the fuck did you think that I came in here in the first place" (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:41.772] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has stripped the wallet displaying Oganesson IV's ID Card (Virologist) off ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:50.756] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I saw the HoP's corpse on suit sensors" (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:51.073] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Sir if you keep attempting to start a riot I will fucking give you a permanent sentence" (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 133, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:28:59.896] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I was picking it up as you decided to attack me" (Central Primary Hallway (88, 141, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:03.979] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "alright" (Central Primary Hallway (104, 144, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:03.993] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "EXCUSE ME?!" (Central Primary Hallway (103, 144, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:06.879] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Permanent sentence time!" (Central Primary Hallway (104, 144, 2))

[I proceeded to not give ATHATH a permanent sentence. I was not ready to commit to the idea that he was an antagonist despite attempting to revive a known capital criminal, stealing all access, assaulting an officer, and inciting a riot]

[2019-08-20 07:29:16.526] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Warden" (Brig (105, 165, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:17.460] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) ""ATTEMPTING TO START A RIOT"?!" (Brig (105, 166, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:20.626] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "the FUCK?!" (Brig (105, 166, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:20.682] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Please give this fucktard 1000 on the gulag" (Brig (105, 165, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:27.834] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Actually I will" (Brig (103, 165, 2))

[ATHATH continues to talk on common channel (has been this whole time if I remember correctly)]

[2019-08-20 07:29:28.584] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I HAVE BEEN" (Brig (100, 165, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:29.111] SAY: Stillplant/(Ryder Spock) "Did you order them to disperse?" (Brig (104, 166, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:36.263] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "A LOYAL MEMBER OF MEDBAY" (Brig (97, 169, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:42.440] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I GAVE YOU THIS REGEN COMA VIRUS" (Brig (97, 169, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:48.450] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Gave himself AA too" (Brig (96, 169, 2))

[At this point the warden comes over to assist me in removing ATHATH]

[2019-08-20 07:29:49.435] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I LITERALLY JUST WALKED INTO THE ROOM" (Brig (97, 169, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:54.449] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "SAW THE ID IN THE CONSOLE" (Brig (96, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:29:59.019] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "AND GAVE MYSELF AA" (Brig (96, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:30:02.564] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "I DID NOTHING TO THE HOP" (Brig (96, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:30:05.235] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "WHAT THE FUCK" (Brig (96, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:30:17.504] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "ralf is dead" (Brig (96, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:30:22.526] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "medbay central" (Brig (96, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:30:28.415] GAME: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) teleported ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) to the Labor Camp (20,40,5) for 1000 points.

[I was not certain if the mime was an antag or not, despite being on scene, as they were away from the body and definitely not the killer. I left it to my other officers.]

[While in the brig I finish performing my search of ATHATH's belongings and find that he had stolen the hypospray from the CMO's locker. This all but confirmed my suspicion that he was a traitor. I showed it to the Warden.]

[2019-08-20 07:30:16.180] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has thrown the backpack (Brig (96, 169, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:30:59.360] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has thrown the hypospray (Brig (99, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:31:02.724] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "was the traitor" (Brig (99, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:31:06.831] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Stole this hypo" (Brig (99, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:31:08.850] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has thrown the hypospray (Brig (99, 168, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:31:12.135] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Thought as much" (Brig (99, 168, 2))


[A short amount of time passes between now and when ATHATH's sentence is up. During this time I destroy a rogue gygax and also promote myself to Head of Security with the all access ID. I first go to the Warden and then Captain using the pinpointer. Both made no objections that I saw.]

[When ATHATH's sentence was up, I ignored it. Generally when I give antags 1000 points on the gulag I let them go afterwards as a soft reset so they can stay in the round as a second chance. If they continue to break the law, I remove them from the round. I have done this countless times over many rounds with no objection. However, walking by the HoP's office, I saw the mime and ATHATH in the HoP's office. (The mime seemed fine as they were interacting with the crew normally, but seeing ATHATH inside of the HoP's office next to the console led me to believe that he was attempting to get all access again. Only once I heard the ID being slotted in and him standing next to the ID console did I begin to arrest.

Importantly here ,if ATHATH did not want to seem like he was attempting to get all access again, he would not have been standing next to the console and instead would have been on the other side of the line, in which case I would not have attempted to arrest. After the arrest, I had planned to interview the two and discern what level of access was actually being given and to make sure that that level was indeed given.]

[2019-08-20 07:45:08.142] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "wew" (Command Hallway (101, 126, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:16.785] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has thrown the banana peel (Bridge (100, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:16.786] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has threw and hit ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the banana peel (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (100, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:17.448] ATTACK: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) has slipped on the [banana peel] (Bridge (100, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:19.791] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has slipped on the [banana peel] (Bridge (100, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:22.915] ATTACK: Firefirefire3/(Vigil Dawson) has attacked [�AI display] with the pocket crowbar (Central Primary Hallway (99, 145, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:25.185] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Yeah no" (Head of Personnel's Office (98, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:28.876] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "You aren't getting access back" (Head of Personnel's Office (98, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:29.268] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "WHO THE FUCK TOOK YM BACKPACK" (Head of Personnel's Office (96, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:34.232] EMOTE: RearKing/(Loud Whispers) shrugs. (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:39.078] ATTACK: RearKing/(Loud Whispers) has thrown the box of spare IDs (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:42.659] ATTACK: RearKing/(Loud Whispers) has thrown the lantern (Head of Personnel's Office (94, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:51.427] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has grabbed ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:56.139] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has stunned ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (100, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:45:56.527] ATTACK: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) has stunned CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) with the defibrillator paddles (Wielded) (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:00.654] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Backup Bridge" (Bridge (100, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:01.434] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "Now" (Bridge (100, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:02.488] ATTACK: Griffin DeLuna/(Macie Vader) has shaken ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:02.822] SAY: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) "help mime" (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:03.505] ATTACK: Griffin DeLuna/(Macie Vader) has shaken ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (101, 128, 2))     {<---This person is a suspected antag aiding him]
[2019-08-20 07:46:03.636] ATTACK: RearKing/(Loud Whispers) has shaken CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (100, 131, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:06.799] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has stunned RearKing/(Loud Whispers) (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (101, 131, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:07.425] ATTACK: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) has thrown the defibrillator paddles (Bridge (100, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.153] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [Bridge] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.154] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [Bridge] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.154] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [Bridge] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.155] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [Bridge] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.155] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [Bridge] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.156] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [Bridge] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.276] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.278] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 83.5)  (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.280] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 67)  (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.282] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 54.6)  (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.325] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 38.1)  (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.673] ATTACK: Firefirefire3/(Vigil Dawson) has fired at [Bridge] with the disabler beam from Bridge (Bridge (100, 136, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.816] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.817] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.818] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.818] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.819] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.819] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.945] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 26.6)  (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:11.946] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: 14.2)  (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:12.244] ATTACK: Firefirefire3/(Vigil Dawson) has fired at [Bridge] with the disabler beam from Bridge (Bridge (100, 136, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:12.481] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:12.481] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:12.482] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:12.482] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:12.483] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:12.483] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [wall] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:12.780] ATTACK: Firefirefire3/(Vigil Dawson) has fired at [Bridge] with the disabler beam from Bridge (Bridge (101, 136, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:13.348] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:13.349] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:13.349] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:13.350] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:13.350] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:13.351] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at [floor] with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (Bridge (101, 129, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.515] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (NEWHP: -2.3)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.516] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (NEWHP: -2.3)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.516] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (NEWHP: -2.3)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.517] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (NEWHP: -2.3)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.517] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (NEWHP: -2.3)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.518] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has fired at ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet from Bridge (NEWHP: -2.3)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.597] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -2.3)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.600] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -19.9)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.602] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -37.5)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.603] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -55.1)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.605] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -72.7)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.651] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has shot ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) with the buckshot pellet (NEWHP: -90.3)  (Bridge (101, 130, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.652] EMOTE: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Bridge (100, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:17.655] ATTACK: ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) has died (BRUTE: 218.9, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0) (Bridge (100, 132, 2)) (Bridge (100, 132, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:24.562] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "What the fuck mime" (Bridge (101, 129, 2))

[The Captain (who was helping me fight ATHATH) watches me pick up ATHATH and bring him towards the cremator]

[2019-08-20 07:46:27.319] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has grabbed ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) passive grab (NEWHP: -106.8)  (Bridge (101, 131, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:37.125] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has grabbed ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -106.8)  (Command Hallway (123, 126, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:46:41.089] SAY: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) "fucking asshole" (Command Hallway (123, 126, 2))
[2019-08-20 07:47:12.688] ATTACK: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel) has cremated ATHATH/(Oganesson IV) (NEWHP: -106.8)  (Chapel Office (79, 74, 2))

[I had already given ATHATH a gulag sentence. I knew that the AI was likely subverted. I knew that the permabrig was likely to not be a safe spot. The only proper course of action to deal with a serious repeat offender was execution, and anyone up the chain of security is allowed to do this if the individual is valid. On top of this, the Captain was the one who assisted me in the kill. Given his actions, I geniunely believed he was an antagonist.]
Below are the related rules to this: (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules)

Main Rules:

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

Under Escalation:
Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

[Use of a stun weapon is LETHAL. Hard stuns in this game are LETHAL. Attempting to take a baton, stunning an officer, etc. are lethal actions which officers are allowed to respond to with lethal force. When I come across a melee stun weapon, the safest option to protect my life is to engage from range with lethals. This is what I did. Note that I did NOT do this the first time as I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. ATHATH was under arrest for legitimate reasons, and his retaliation with stun weaponry multiple times led me to believe he was an antagonist.]

Security Policy & Precedents:

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

[Same as before, stuns are lethal. I attempted to use non-lethal methods (arresting via stunbaton) before I escalated to lethals]

The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

[I think we can clearly see that ATHATH was acting like an antag here and that I as an officer had every right to treat him like an antagonist. Just based off of the laws he broke:

101 Resisting Arrest (multiple counts)
107 Vandalism (when he broke into the HoP's office)
301 Assault, Deadly Weapon (Twice with defib paddles)
302 Assault, Officer (Myself)
306 Inciting a Riot (Common channel talk)
309 Major Trespass (Two Counts, HoP's office. Assuming the mime wanted him there (shouldn't have) One count)
310 B&E Restricted (First time breaking into HoP's Office)
408 Grand Theft (Hypospray, All Access the first time, All Access the second time)

There was plenty of IC justification for execution. I was the HoS. I was witness to all of these crimes. I found confirmed traitor objectives on his person not of his job. I was assaulted by him twice with stun weaponry. A suspected antagonist aided him while he was fighting me.]

While handling the ticket, space law was cited as a reason why I should not have executed him despite all of these things and despite the fact that I became the HoS. Even as a Security Officer, Space Law is a guideline and not an absolute. The server rules are much more important. Space Law is not the rules of the server.

From the Space Law page:
The rules and regulations herein are not absolutes, instead they exist to serve mainly as guidelines for the law and order of the dynamic situations that exist for stations on the frontiers of space, as such some leeway is permitted.

Common Practice for security is that after multiple attempts on an officer's life or after repeats of a broken law, the prisoner in question is executed. I do not do this for normal players, I try to give them more than one extra chance. I did so with ATHATH and was assaulted again, thus the cremation. I have done this many, many, many times across my playtime as Security with absolutely zero issue. If the AI was not subverted, I would have considered borging. I had already given a gulag sentence. I could not rely on permabrig being secure. These are the reasons why he was executed.

Why you think this note should be removed: I believe that I was acting fully within escalation and within the capabilities of my position at the time that I cremated the virologist (Officer or not). He had broken many serious laws across the entirety of the shift, had attacked me with stun weapons more than once, and was obviously prepared to continue breaking the law after. He had stolen the hypospray on top of this, which marked him as a very, very likely antagonist. During my bwoink, I had forgotten that the Captain had watched me drag the corpse off to the cremator, which I believe shows his consent to the matter (regardless of the fact I was in my right to cremate him anyways). I also forgot by the time the round ended that the individual had the hypospray in his backpack.

For all intents and purposes, the individual was acting like an antagonist, and what I have seen as a normal, measured, and reasonable approach at that stage given my hundred plus hours playing head of security was execution. He was given multiple chances to stop and he responded with violence. I think that this note, while marked as neutral, paints me in a negative light and as a validhunter who jumps the gun when I was only doing what was reasonable in that situation. I believe that the individual who was cremated was attempting to deceive the admin in question with half truths that painted them as a victim when they were not, and that the individual fully understood the repercussions of his actions. I may even go so far as to say that given their clearly antagonistic behaviour and omitting of facts indicates that he was attempting to banbait me (albeit very, very poorly). This individual proceeding to tell half-thruths in OOC and in discord after the round is lying and malicious. I would like to see this note completely removed as I was not breaking any rules nor towing the line.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by Ordo » #508579

Ree was going to reserve first post for long reply but now will reserve second post for long reply to come later because ordo is nocturnal
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Istoprocent1
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by Istoprocent1 » #508582

Disregard my post. I was fairly certain that another player who was shot by the sec ahelped it, turns out it was somebody else.

ATHATH did have a mental breakdown at the end of the round and in the discord tho.
ATHATH
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by ATHATH » #508655

Hey, ATHATH/the virologist whom you killed here. Let me give you my side of the story, here:

>Start the round as a plasmaman virologist.
>Realize that me and a geneticist are the only members of the Medbay staff.
>Decide to act like a medical doctor this shift, since Medbay desperately needed one.
>Kindly ask a borg to open the CMO's locker for me.
>Effectively promote myself to CMO using the contents of the CMO's locker.
>Make a lazy healing virus (sneezing+plasma fixation+regen coma).
>EMP my compact defib (and replace its cell).
>Get my arm reattached after it gets blown off in an explosion because some idiot blew a borg that half of the sec force, a prisoner, and me were standing around.
>Do some advanced surgery on a guy who requested it.
>Give the omnizine from the hypospray to the chemist and instead fill the hypospray with a 12u/18u morphine/water mix (proportioned such that a single 5u injection from the hypospray will give you the "comfortably numb" moodlet but won't knock you out).
>Walk through the halls and hear shotgun blasts.
>Arrive at the scene of the combat to discover a sec officer with a shotgun standing over the recently-killed corpse of an assistant.
>Plead with the officer to let me patch up the corpse of and defib the corpse of the assistant.
>They refuse, and instead appear to be trying to hide the corpse, which is a personal pet peeve of mine. If you execute a prisoner/enemy of the law, you should either clone or borg them; if you leave their corpse to rot in the Armory, you will lose almost all respect that I might have had for you.
>I ask the warden to reign in their bloodthirsty officer and perhaps borg the corpse, and he says that he'll ensure that the corpse is given a proper burial at the chapel, which I suppose is good enough for me.
>After I leave the brig, I report what I view as a shitsec incident in bigtext over comms using my CMO headset.
>Some time later, I notice that the HoP has 200 brute damage on suit sensors in his office.
>Normally, I'd assume that he had just committed suicide, but a non-suicider had also been brought into Medbay with 200 brute damage earlier in the shift, so I go to the HoP's office to investigate.
>I examine the HoP's corpse, and sure enough, he ISN'T a suicider.
>The mime is breaking in through the windoors, so I decide to go into the office via a different way: by just hacking one of its doors open.
>I break in at around the same time as the mime and let him get AA first.
>He leaves the HoP ID in the console (presumably for me), so I use it to give myself AA.
>As I'm grabbing the HoP's corse and preparing to leave with it, the officer with the shotgun from earlier runs in and tries to stun me with his baton.
>While he does hit me with his baton, I manage to stun him with my EMP'd compact defib before I fall over (while I'd normally resist arrest against any sec officer, I especially didn't want to get caught by this one, as I had seen what he had done to that other criminal earlier).
>Unfortunately, the stun from a stun baton lasts longer than the stun from a compact defib, so the officer gets up first and arrests me.
>The officer removes my backpack (and then leaves it in the HoP's office, IIRC), which contains my meds, tools, etc., and I never see it again.
>I report on this arrest over general comms using the big text from my CMO headset (NOT from an HoP headset, as I HADN'T looted the HoP's body) as I am being brought to the brig.
>As he takes me to the brig, he informs me that I've been charged with "attempting to incite a riot", a charge that I find absolutely absurd and am baffled at.
>The officer then gives me a gulag sentence (even though we already had plenty of mats? I mean, I suppose that you can always use more resources...) of 1,000 points (which, IIRC, is supposed to be equivalent to 10 minutes of normal jail time), seemingly only for the "crime" of giving myself AA.
>This officer is named John Gobbel, if that fact hasn't been made very obvious already. I shall call him by his name from here on out.
>I'm teleported down to the gulag and land on top of the corpse of another prisoner.
>I decide to actually work through with my sentence and begin to mine.
>As I mine, I ahelp John and report his actions to the admins (and mention that I did admittedly resist arrest with a stun weapon), saying that although I don't think that they were bwoink-worthy, I do think that the admins might want to keep a closer eye on him for the rest of the round to see if he continues to be shitsec (could an admin please post the logs of my ahelp conversations with the admins in this thread? I think that they'd help reinforce my case and show that I wasn't trying to ban bait).
>I also ask the admins if I'm still allowed to try to take my revenge on John after ahelping about him, and they tell me that although reporting someone doesn't forfeit your right to retaliate against them, being sentenced to the gulag for my crimes has de-escalated/should de-escalate the conflict back down to just angry word flinging.
>In other words, no, I shouldn't take my revenge, since the conflict has pretty much been resolved.
>Alright, cool beans, I'll leave John alone.
>The shuttle is called partway through my sentence, but I finish my gulag sentence in time and retrieve some of my items (but not my ID card or the ones from my backpack).
>I ask the warden for my ID back and check the gulag teleporter site for it and my backpack, but couldn't find them.
>I ask the mime (who is now the HoP (apparently, they got permission from the captain before breaking into the HoP's office and I didn't? I'm not quite sure how they got off the hook (and even became a head of staff) for doing basically the same thing that I got a 1,000 point gulag sentence for)) to give me a new ID, and they agree.
>We follow each other back to the HoP's office, and I wait inside for the mime to give me a new ID (while not even touching the console myself, IIRC).
>Then John walks in, and this happens (this starts with the first thing that he said to me since coming back, IIRC):
https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... /john1.PNG
>tldr; John walks in, says that I'm not getting my ID back (the mime HoP is in the same room as us, mind), stuns me, and then gets stunned by me. A kind soul helps me up, causing me and John to get back on our feet at roughly the same time.
>And then this happens: https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... /john2.PNG
>tldr; John decides that this is a situation that warrants the use of a shotgun that is loaded full of lethal buckshot, and opens fire with me with the aforementioned buckshot-filled shotgun, hardcritting me near-instantly (1 . 5 x b r u t e d a m a g e).
>I die a few seconds later from crit damage, and John begins to drag me away.
>I ahelp John's massive over-escalation.
>And finally, this happens: https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... /john3.PNG
>tldr; John decides to cremate me (even though I haven't done a single point of damage to him or any other member of sec all shift) without consulting his superiors (how the hell was the captain supposed to know that you were taking me to the chapel? He's not psychic).
>I inform the admins that John cremated me with another ahelp.
>The round ends a few minutes later, and I salt at John Gobbel (and Istoprocent, as I had thought that he was John's player, not CAPTTLasky) in OOC chat a bunch for seemingly executing me for giving myself AA.
>I also post the above three screenshots in the Discord server.

That second incident at the HoP's office was a case of massive overescalation by John, in my opinion. He attacked me with a stun weapon (because I allowed the mime HoP to do their job and make me a new ID?), I defended myself with a stun weapon, and then John jumped directly to lethal weapons (used with an intent to kill instead of to crit) and CREMATION.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by ATHATH » #508656

Side question: Did you have the captain's, warden's, and/or HoS's permission to shotgun down that assistant who had stolen from sec officers with lethal buckshot? Did you try to use a disabler before using your shotgun against them? Did they themselves have a disabler (making the fight way too even/risky, which in my view would be an acceptable reason to use lethal buckshot to end the fight quickly (but preferably just to crit them, not outright kill them))?

EDIT:
Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

[Same as before, stuns are lethal. I attempted to use non-lethal methods (arresting via stunbaton) before I escalated to lethals]
Touche. Are you sure that this rule isn't supposed to only come into effect once you are sure that your nonlethal methods won't work (rather than just because one of your multiple nonlethal options didn't work due to a reason other than because it was a nonlethal weapon? Yes, your stun baton would not have been the most appropriate weapon to use after I showed that I also had a melee-range stun reason, but shouldn't you have tried to use a disabler or the like instead of saying "well, I can't melee this guy with a nonlethal weapon, I guess that means that I can just skip over all of my other nonlethal weapons and use a lethal ranged weapon to solve the problem"? Admittedly, you WERE in a enclosed space, so perhaps the shotgun WAS the best choice in that situation. But that still leaves the question of why you didn't stop (and try to move in to cuff) once you critted me and why you decided to CREMATE my corpse.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by ATHATH » #508659

Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4.
To address each of these points:
"Stunning an officer repeatedly"
This seems to be intended to refer to chainstunning, not "he stunned an officer twice, with both incidents being separated from each other by about 15 minutes".
"using lethal or restricted weapons on them"
If stun weapons are "lethal" weapons, what ISN'T a lethal weapon? What else was I supposed to do? Just let you arrest me?

Is an EMP'd compact defib considered to be a "restricted weapon"? I thought that that was referring to traitor gear and such, not stun batons and the like.

"disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals"
Was asking you to consider rezzing and/or borging a dead criminal whom you already had in custody really a disruption of an arrest or a sentence? It wasn't like I was actively grabbing the corpse (or a living criminal) and pulling it away from you.

"or damaging the brig"
I didn't do this; I don't think I ever hacked a Brig door (I might be wrong about this, however; maybe check the logs?). I just walked in after other people opened doors that led into the brig/restricted areas (apart from the door to the HoP's office, which I did hack open (it wasn't a part of the brig, though)).
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by elyina » #508686

Giving yourself illegal all access more or less makes you valid for sec. He showed you a mercy by giving you a 1000 point gulag sentence instead of permabrigging you. If you don't want to deal with that, don't give yourself all access. Even if you don't do bad with it, you're still creating a great danger to the station, as any random traitor could kill you or just steal it off you and have free reign to do whatever they want with it.
In your second confrontation, you resisted arrest and stunned him for trying to arrest you. Normally you wouldn't be valid just for that act alone, but as you had already a history in the round of committing a capital offense that you were let off lightly for, the standard for sec to kill you is much lower.
Getting permission from higher ups to kill someone is not a requirement in the rules, it's an IC standard just like space law. He could be fired or charged with murder for it by the HoS or Captain, but it's not considered an administrative issue.
Last edited by elyina on Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by MortoSasye » #508687

This is a reminder to literally everyone that space law is not part of our rules and are only a suggestion, thanks.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by John_Gobbel » #508701

I intend to let the logs and my story speak for itself here, I don't think responding to the comments made which are so ludicrously obtuse would do anybody good. I'll stick to the logs and let precedent/reason take their course.

Only thing I want to clear up is that I was citing the laws he broke as in-character justification for his sentencing. Please look behind the laws at the actions to determine if there was a need for OOC intervention.

I handled this situation above and beyond the common practice of security, who normally are much harsher much faster with how they handle situations like this one.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by Ordo » #508770

Okay. Longpost incoming. I'll start with an overview of why this situation even matters; the minutia wouldn't be relevant if this were some arbitrary situation, but I don't think it is. I'll then go through why I think there are two primary chains of logic one can use to analyze the situation which do not interleave compatibly in important areas, because that factors in to why this particular situation warrants a note. I'll then describe various different actions that would have lead to this being totally fine, one in particular at the end of this chain of events.

PART THE FIRST: WHY IT MATTERS ENOUGH TO NOTE

Most people don't bother to look up space law. That includes most security players, even most security mains. That's not a great thing. But it is also the truth. This leaves security in an unenviable position; they can either enforce space law by the letter, with times and punishments drawn from the book, most of which would be considered severe by player standards, require referencing said book, and generally necessitate a functional command structure from top to bottom, or they can go with the usual, rougher but quicker approach of judging on a case-by-case basis and various contextual clues, which can and does lead to inconsistencies, but is very often how we do things. Most players with a few rounds under their belt expect the latter of the two, but can be reliably policed by the former if they believe sec is not trigger-happy.

Sec is often trigger-happy. Sec is often trigger-happy with very good reason, but the fact remains that they are. When the crew thinks sec is trigger-happy and not sensitive to context, and therefore find the relative severity of punishments to be high (including the enforcement of laws not often enforced), the natural tendency is to remove sec from power, or to blunt that power in some way, or to call the shuttle. The crew is especially likely to do this if they think that sec is preventing them from solving problems facing the station. Arresting someone for B&E, for example, when the station is falling apart is not something that generally improves the round for anyone, and this will precipitate riots and make the situation worse. Most players don't roleplay it in a way that could create an interesting narrative either; if they did, that would be a fun thing to explore, but they don't.

It is not sec's job to make sure every traitor has redtext. It is sec's job to keep the station safe. Things which make that harder are very bad, which is why, notes like this exist, and in my opinion, need to exist, is because the moment sec diverges from written protocol as regards round removal, when sec has chosen to police the crew by the written standards, the stereotype that sec is trigger-happy and only interested in the power provided by having weapons is reinforced, which makes actually playing by the rules harder. It removes an option for future sec players to pursue the straight-laced, firm but fair way of playing sec. I think this has already happened a great deal, and I don't think it's a good thing. So why note it? This lets another admin know that a person, in a really stressful situation (as noted, in the note), this person may be pressured into overstepping that line, which means the min can see a situation start to develop ahead of time and talk with the officer/troublemaker to defuse said situation and more importantly to provide the context to the officer as to why an action might be within space law but still not a good idea. It's temporary because this is the type of thing we get better at with time, you were not in any way acting like a shitter or impolite, it was a stressful and chaotic situation, and because the degree to which the boundary was overstepped was minimal but significant enough that if it did become a pattern, more serious action might need to be taken.

PART THE SECOND: WHY CAKE CAN BE HAD OR EATEN, BUT NOT BOTH

We can look at most situations that happen in this game from two perspectives: “Was this in accordance with the protocols, regulations, and IC lore that exists” and “Did this action progress the round or make sense for a person trying to survive and help the station survive within the round”. If one is genuinely making an effort to roleplay either, most things are fine, because both of those ways of playing, if consistently adhered to, lead to reliable and interesting ways for the crew to interact with each other and make interesting rounds. You can be a loose cannon cop who doesn't play by the rules, or a straight-laced captain who demands his badge. Both are fun interactions. Mixing the two is where things begin to break down.

Let's establish a little bit more context for the round, because I feel like that while the logs you've put together are presented in good faith, they don't display a few very important things that did happen in the round; some of this information was available to security, some very obviously wasn't. There were two members of medbay, and only two, at roundstart, and they did not gain any significant degree of help as the round bore on. Especially with recent changes to medbay, wherein self-healing is made more inconvenient, this establishes a significant burden on those two individuals, and increases their relative importance to the crew. The antags for this roundstart were blood brothers, which generally don't cause too much chaos, but are still capable of doing enough damage to mean that medbay is very important in case of assassination. We also had two midround tator tots who raised some merry hell throughout the round.
[2019-08-20 06:24:08.776] GAME: ZealousZeke/(Lennox Williams) Client ZealousZeke/(Lennox Williams) has taken ownership of mob (/mob/living/carbon/human) (Chapel Office (80, 75, 2))
[2019-08-20 06:24:08.940] GAME: Nalyr_/(Todd Coddler) has gained antag datum Brother(/datum/antagonist/brother)
[2019-08-20 06:24:08.943] GAME: Griffin DeLuna/(Macie Vader) has gained antag datum Brother(/datum/antagonist/brother)

[2019-08-20 07:54:50.958] GAME: Antagonists at round end were...
[2019-08-20 07:54:50.958] GAME: Brothers :Nalyr_[DC]/(Todd Coddler), Griffin DeLuna/(Macie Vader).
[2019-08-20 07:54:50.958] GAME: Ash Walkers :arcanedefence/(Olank-Lei), hoodknite/(Marz-Deesei).
[2019-08-20 07:54:50.958] GAME: Traitors :Cacogen[DC]/(Sam Houser), LibbySnow[DC]/(Maria Kzer-Za).
[2019-08-20 07:54:51.023] GAME: Blackbox sealed.
It is a very logical thing for either the geneticist or the virologist to assume on seeing that they're virtually alone in medbay “Oh shit, we have no medics, I need to go grab bodies myself to clone them”. It is furthermore logical to assume “I'm going to need the access to go grab bodies stuck in places, because if the captain dies and/or the AI is malf, there will not be anyone who can get to them, as we lack a CMO”. This is not an antagonistic thought nor is it an antagonistic action. Especially when the HoP dies early. I tried, but apparently didn't do a good job, of conveying this to you during the ahelp and the in-round conversation, which is partially on me. But this is one of the understandings that I think is really important going forward as a player: A viro who is doing more to help the crew (through releasing a very beneficial {regen coma} virus and trying to fulfill the missing role of CMO and medic, albeit with limited effectiveness) than harm it, and whose only crimes are related to acquiring goods necessary to do that job better (in the form of access), and retaliation against an officer preventing them from doing so is not the same as the greytider who used a borg to get in to the captain's office and take the hand tele. Even if he might have been an antag, he was keeping the station more alive than dead by his actions.

In this situation, security is making the station less safe. In a degraded station environment, which was absolutely in place by the second confrontation, and was getting there in the first, people are going to respond very negatively to anything preventing them from improving the safety of the station, especially when sec had already blinded a prisoner in their custody; the same prisoner which ATHATH originally wanted to bring to medbay. Blinding players is, with rare exception, considered at best concerning behavior from the sec department. You now have a player who has reason to think sec isn't going to do their job, or who will actively overstep their authority and make the situation worse.

So to recap, you have a virologist trying to keep the station alive, who already has reason to distrust that sec will aid them in that goal, pursuing a nonviolent item that will help them do that better. This isn't antag-like behavior, and is a really, really important contextual element that was not picked up on. Is it illegal under space law? Sure is. Is it also illegal under space law to self-promote to HoS as you mentioned in the ahelp?
[2019-08-20 08:06:08.100] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: CAPTTLasky/(John Gobbel)->OrdoM/(Viktor Bergmannsen): Are you trying to say that the mime, who was not roundstart mindshielded, has the authority to give out all access to someone? I don't understand. I promoted myself to HoS because there was none. The warden barely knew what they were doing. I've always played with the understanding that if you act like an antag you get treated like an antag, and in situations where officers have been attacked by antagonists they are free to execute.
Yes. BUT. For the same reason it was a good idea and totally okay for you to take up the mantle of HoS with an inexperienced warden and a lasseiz-faire Cappy, it was a good idea and totally okay for the virologist to take up the mantle of CMO and start running around frantically giving sideways spessmen the ol' two-paddle massage. And this is what I didn't get a sign you were understanding, which is why I felt the need to put in a note, because it is exactly this type of contextual disconnect that leads to much more serious problems with sec. I mentioned spacelaw in the ahelp itself because I feel a double standard was being applied here, and why the section is titled as it is. IF we assume that we're going by spacelaw, arresting him was the right choice. IF we assume that we're going by spacelaw, you didn't have the right to cremate him without asking a superior; shooting him in the heat of the moment would have been fine, that's just responding to force, but that isn't where things ended. This is one of the big reasons that:

SPACE LAW IS ONLY A GUIDELINE

IF the captain not arresting you or the warden not giving you the briggy-diggy is tacit acceptance of your new role as HoS, leading you to act as HoS, then the same standards of tacit acceptance need to be applied to a virologist getting CMO gear from a borg because there is no CMO and someone needs to do that job, or that virologist going to the HoP's office and requesting all of the axe-eggs. If it walks like an HoP, and it (doesn't) talks like an HoP, and it wears HoP clothing, and resides in the HoP office, and neither the Captain nor anyone else has bothered to change this fact, then this is the person you go to to get your ID changed. You saw that there wasn't a HoS, and knew that was a problem. Mime saw that there wasn't a HoP, and knew that was a problem. ATH saw that there wasn't a CMO, and knew that was a problem. The Captain definitely should have stepped in earlier to make their feelings known on the matter, but didn't, and this isn't uncommon.

I really want to reiterate this, because I think this is the disconnect here, and is a big part of why I felt that cremation in particular was going from 'not ideal, but not a problem' to 'a real problem'. The note is there because I felt you were making very logical and contextually informed decisions regarding your own behavior, but were not extending the same contextual liberties to other crewmembers, and that a consequence of that double standard was permanent round-removal of someone who was making a good-faith effort to improve the round. I do not think you were being a shitter in the slightest, but this double standard is something that can really fuck over rounds for everyone when you play or assume roles that have a lot of power, because it means that your good-faith efforts might make the round worse for people, and that is the exact situation we want to avoid. We don't ban people for trying to do the right thing, thank goodness. But when someone's idea of what the right thing is becomes incongruous with how players play the game or disconnected from certain elements of context, we start merrily paving the road to shitsec with good intentions.

PART THE THIRD: HOW THE NEFARIOUS NOTE OF THE ODIOUS ORDO COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED

The big one is the cremation. I am entirely confident in saying I wouldn't have noted this if not for that element, because that is both where the double standard really presents itself in terms of both something that a normal sec officer doesn't have the authority to do (unless evidence of lings were really abounding) and something that is a permanent round-removal which other players will notice and which will likely turn them against sec, making sec's job harder, which makes everyone's job harder. If you shot him and left him for dead on the floor, that'd be fine, he did fight back. Even dragging his body up to the warden and having him deal with it and choose to cremate would be peachy keen. Permaing him or gulag 2, electric boogaloo would fall in to the 'not great, but okay' category as well.

In my mind the ideal situations would be that the Captain did more of his job and said either “Hopmime is valid salad, kill he” or “Mime is scholar and gentleman, he is full HoP now”, that earlier on in the round instead of immediately going for “are you inciting a riot” when the viro sees a guy you've blinded and fucked with you or the captain had announced to the crew “hey, we just ass-blasted a shitcurity officer for blinding a prisoner, come laugh at him in the brig” or something to that effect. Anything to create more of a sense that sec is working with the crew to solve their problems rather than hunting for rule violations and applying a stun-baton firmly and forcefully to the rectal cavity of all who fall afoul of the book. You were not well served by your CO this round, and this is part of why warden in particular is an important job. But ultimately the situation was never going to resolve particularly well after it had gotten to this point. Communicating with the crew works a lot better than quoting them chapter and verse during relatively low-pop rounds with limited medical resources, and this is the type of scenario where avoiding it altogether would be easier than trying to pick the best choice of a bad bunch once it arose.

PART THE CONCLUSION: WHERE ORDO REALIZES HIS WORDS-PER-MINUTE SCORE IS VASTLY IMPROVED THANKS TO ADMINNING

Firstly and foremost: thank you for not being a shitter during this process. You show no signs of acting in bad faith, and whether the note remains or whether it doesn't, I do think you will learn from the events that happened and am more than happy to engage with any questions you have about my reply, or if you want me to logdive to other areas. I also apologize for how long it took, but I wanted to make it very clear exactly what I was trying to communicate here. I really do not anticipate this being a problem going forward, but part of the reason for that is that I hope this explanation will make our expectations of security more applicable to future situations; seeing the thoughtprocess of the badmin in question will hopefully help in that regard.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by John_Gobbel » #508781

Alright. I want to try to break this up into parts and address some of them with you. I'm going to try to summarize what you're saying, but if you think that I've missed the essence of what you're saying feel free to correct me.

1. I should have looked at this situation from the perspective of the virologist, and if I did I would have realized that he was only trying to help.

I agree with you that security needs to look at the context of a situation in order to fully eek out punishments, and I do give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these things. I gladly empathize with players and give the benefit of the doubt, and that's why I didn't permanently remove athath the first time he assaulted me and I found a hypospray in his backpack (because at that point in the rules I'm fully allowed to do that). If at any point during this situation ATHATH attempted to actually cooperate with me, I would have been much more keen to listen to his side of the story. Instead, he antagonized, assaulted, and undermined everything that I was doing to keep the peace every single step of the way. This game operates on limited information, and regardless of if the department was understaffed or if someone disagreed with something, the information that I had available to me led to the conclusion that the virologist was either an antagonist or an incredible shitter. I still do not believe that he was acting in good faith, as if he was, he would not have assaulted me multiple times, attempted to undermine me, or act in a way that would make me believe he was an antag.

Every single piece of evidence given to me had shown me that the virologist was not going to be productive to the round and I should not be punished for acting on that evidence.

2. If I had attempted to keep the station safe instead of attempting to deny an antagonist, I would not have cremated the virologist.

This is also false. I DO act in a manner that attempts to keep the station safe and keep as many people in the round as possible. From everything that I had seen, the virologist was just another shitter. There were no other avenues to investigate this other than his conduct. If he had chosen to act in good faith with me, there would have been room for me to investigate further. However, he took the least favorable approach like most every other shitter does. I had been dealing with him for longer than twenty minutes, and from my perspective he would not be stopping. I had been continuously preventing him from breaking the law with no breaks. Again, common practice for continued troublemakers who break the law after multiple warnings or sentencing is to put them in a position where they cannot cause more trouble, and my only valid way to do this was cremation. I was acting under VERY reasonable assumptions that his behavior would continue to be negative and that he was an antagonist, and so I took an appropriate and normal course.

I am not required to keep people in the round when they are acting this way.

I think that the idea of trying to put security into a better mentality for handling situations is good. However, I was following common practice, was within the rules, and don't think that I should have been required to baby someone and given them more than an additional chance if I don't think it's necessary. I think that if you believe security should be attempting to do this more than once it should be instituted in policy and then followed up in precedent.

3. The virologist believed that security was shitsec and thus was in the right to defend himself from an arrest.

I have never seen this at play in any other situation. Common practice has always been that if you assault security than you are opening yourself up to complete retaliation. I do NOT think this should always be something that removes someone from the round, but to say that someone can assault security and resist arrest multiple times without the threat that they will be removed from the round ignores precedent. This is another situation where the policy and precedent do not match the verdict, and I think that trying to enforce something like this blindsides players like me who have been acting on precedent for so long.

Escalation is not mutual between regular crew and security, it never has been.

Also regarding the blinded individual, I'm fairly certain that security was not responsible for blinding them. I may be wrong. If that was true, I think that the individual responsible for it should have been penalized. I don't think it justifies randomly attacking security when they attempt to arrest you, though, *ESPECIALLY* when you were not the party who was blinded.

Overall I see where you're going with this, but I don't think it follows precedent in the slightest and undermines security's ability to do their job well. Just because the virologist was not actually an antagonist doesn't make what he was doing non-antagonistic behavior. He was self-antagging by assaulting security and was punished for it on a gradually increasing scale. I still fail to see the problem here. There is no basis with this in the rules and the fact that ATHATH even ahelped this knowing that it has no standing in the rules still leads me to believe it was malicious.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by Ordo » #508801

I'll try to address each point in turn, but it's also worth noting that I think there is an extent to which I'm not really getting the message across, and I'll list that first as an overarching statement regarding the note.

I don't think you did much wrong; I think this is an instance of just barely going over a very important line. Permanent round removal through dusting, gibbing, cremation, etc. is different in kind than any other punishment that can be dished out and requires as a result a different standard of information accrual. There were no extenuating circumstances that would indicate the presence of lings or any other threat to the round that necessitated taking that extra step, and it is that step with which I took issue. I don't mind beating the shit out of someone who fights back. I do mind when security has been dysfunctional, command has been nearly absent and replaced by various crewmen and then does not at least announce “Hey, I'm cremating this person because XYZ, any objections Cap?” before doing so, which dovetails into the first aspect you mentioned in your reply.

1.
Concerning the first point, I think you're misconstruing what I'm trying to convey. It is indeed understood that this is explicitly a game of imperfect information, which is precisely why permanent round removal is such a dramatic uptick in severity from death. Killing someone you think is acting poorly when they have restricted materials is fine in the situation of the round, but permanently removing them from the round without consulting the captain or warden is an important line which did get crossed. I'm not claiming that the virologist has a right to fight back without getting robusted or even shot; I am claiming that because there is imperfect information it is important not to take steps that cannot be undone if one's information state changes, and because sec had acted in a way so as to imbue the crew with the belief that security was going to kill or maim them if they were captured, fighting back becomes less shitter-like behavior. You don't have to look at things from the viro's perspective; you have to ask whether your own perspective is complete enough to justify the actions taken, and I think cremation was not justified here, because you did not take the additional steps to gather information from other people outside of your experience to update your information state. You are not being punished for acting on the evidence you had, but being warned that the efforts you took to gather evidence was insufficient, especially given other events that had happened in the round regarding security.

This is directly related to the second point you mentioned, 2.

Part of this is may simply be a matter of how we're defining what constitutes a threat to the station, but even if we assume that all access is an active and severe threat, then the mimeHoP is the most severe threat, as it can distribute rather than just possess. If the mimehop has gotten permission from the captain to be mimehop, then the viro getting an AA ID from him is not a high-threat situation, nor illegal. Warning the crew that a dysfunctional sec department is dysfunctional is not inciting a riot; the AI is not inciting riots when it warns the crew of human harm, and medbay's vested interest is to keep the crew alive, which includes warning them of danger, which at this point, security did seem to be. Cremating a confirmed antagonist is not even something I would say is normal, although I would say it is perfectly acceptable. This was not a confirmed antagonist in any sense of the word. Someone having the hypospray isn't odd if they've replaced the CMO and have been taking steps to heal the crew, just like someone securing the disk as non-command if no command spawn isn't grounds to arrest them for having it. You're not required to baby anyone, but you are required to consider that the crew might riot if you keep executing people, which doesn't keep the station safe.

This brings us to the third point, most of which I think has already been addressed but for one part which is mostly my fault. I'm not claiming that the viro should expect to be able to fight sec without the usual consequences, nor am I implying that escalation between crew and sec is on the same scale as normal escalation; I was talking about how punishment escalates between one stage to the next, and should have done more to make that clear in both ahelp and appeal. Mea culpa.

To the last bit of errata; security did indeed blind the individual, and the warden had to brig them and their security records reflected this fact, which leads me to believe that the warden was competent enough at least to fulfill his role of determining sentencing, not that they 'barely knew what they were doing', which somewhat colors my opinion on the matter further.

The captain had no way to know you were dragging the corpse to chapel for cremation, especially because cloning is in the same direction. You acted outside of the chain of command that had been established in that either you're assuming that you have the right to self-promote to HoS but that another doesn't have the right to promote to CMO or HoP, or if self-promotion is impermissible, then as a security officer who did not consult with either the Warden or Captain regarding the ultimate fate of a criminal. You were tunnel-visioned on this particular person and acted too quickly when they no longer presented an active threat to administer a punishment outside of what is expected. Cremation is only normal for lings.

If you disagree with this interpretation then I'm happy to open it up for a headmin to offer cassation of the decision, but as it stands I do think you went too far to the point that it at least warrants a 2 month expiring note of minor severity.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by John_Gobbel » #508802

I genuinely do not believe I did anything wrong here. I don't believe this was overescalation. I don't believe I acted irresponsibly at all, and I do not think that the note is reasonable or reflective of the situation. Despite the fact that you say it's a minor severity note and that it expires, the connotations are severe and expired notes can still be viewed.

I contemplated what might be a reasonable revision to the note, but I still honestly believe I did nothing wrong and that this is normal procedure for security. I didn't break the rules. I even went out of my way to give another chance. I struggle to understand why you believe that after multiple conflicts I would be unable to remove someone from the round after they were being clearly antagonistic towards security. I don't feel you've adequately responded to my points. I should not have to walk on eggshells when it comes to removing people who were obviously breaking the law, acting like an antag, and being, frankly, an asshole. Nothing that I could have gathered from that round would have led me to believe anything differently.

I would like a headmin to weigh in.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by ATHATH » #509061

I feel like you're treating "self-defense with stun weapons against a sec officer" as way too severe a crime here. It isn't like I just ran up to you and started firing disabler bolts at you or the like; you escalated to stun combat first, and I followed suit (both times). If I had whipped out a shotgun after you pulled out your baton or attacked you with my compact defib before you pulled out your baton (and hit me with it (both times), mind), then I would totally get why you treated me so harshly. But I didn't do either of those things, and that's why I'm baffled as to why you think that it's okay that you treated me like I did do one of those things.

On a related note, I don't quite get why you were expecting me to just lay down and let myself get arrested for what I didn't perceive as a crime. Nobody wants to be arrested by sec (even if they have nothing to hide, because the prisoner-searching process is usually annoyingly long (and sometimes sec will give you a 2-3 minute brig sentence for your minor crime anyway, even if you have no antag gear on you)), and if I have the means to avoid getting arrested without harming a member of sec, I will bloody well USE them (AFTER the officer has shown an intent to arrest me/waste my time). This is likely why even Space Law lists resisting arrest as a MINOR crime ("worth" only around ONE MINUTE of prison time). I do not understand why I was treated like I was some cop-killer for merely trying to avoid having 5-10 minutes of my time wasted (and that's not factoring in the fact that I heard you shotgun down a criminal and saw you hide their body earlier in the round). In the second case, I also had valid reason to believe that you would give me another overly-harsh punishment (that likely would have caused my marooning, seeing as how the shuttle was only 6 or so minutes away at that point), since I had both witnessed you try to hide the body of a criminal whom you shotgunned to death in the hall (I didn't actually know about the blinding of that criminal; I don't think that that should be factored into this note appeal) AND been gulagged for 1,000 points by you for (from my perspective, both now and then) a minor crime (I didn't know that you had thought that I was an antag because I had the hypospray).

In short, I am not the Devil for trying to avoid being sent to jail. I do understand why you might be SOMEWHAT more harsh in your sentencing due to my fighting back, but gulagging me/escalating to cremation because I didn't want to go to prison/back to the gulag (respectively) was kind of absurd.
Last edited by ATHATH on Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:39 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by ATHATH » #509062

I also think that Space Law is due for an update if doing what it says for you to do can cause you to break the rules/be perceived as shitsec by almost everyone you encounter. Why haven't we updated the suggested prison times/sentences in Space Law to be more reflective of what players expect for them to be? Are punishments for petty theft or drug distribution REALLY still given out as if those crimes were "medium crimes"?
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by Gigapuddi420 » #509077

ATHATH wrote:I feel like you're treating "self-defense with stun weapons against a sec officer" as way too severe a crime here. It isn't like I just ran up to you and started firing disabler bolts at you or the like; you escalated to stun combat first, and I followed suit (both times).
By security policy shooting at officers with stun weapons tends to allow them to shoot back with lethals as it becomes a threatening situation. It's natural for a officer to initiate a arrest with stun weapons as it's their job to make arrests non-lethally where possible only using lethals in dangerous situations; suspect being armed and dangerous is one of those situations.
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John_Gobbel
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Byond Username: CAPTTLasky

Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by John_Gobbel » #509264

I think the crazy thing about this entire situation is that ATHATH understands the rules and from discussions I've had with others, trying to twist the rules in his favor to do what he wants has been a consistent thing he has done.

There are plenty of ways that ATHATH could have avoided being cremated, but instead of doing so, he took the most belligerent route available to him. He shouldn't be surprised that these altercations ended in him being cremated.

And yet he ahelped anyways knowing that only candidates were online. Keep in mind he believed that I was istoprocent, someone who he already didn't like.

If ATHATH wasn't being malicious, he wouldn't have attempted multiple times to have security infight or be lynched
If ATHATH wasn't being malicious, he wouldn't have assaulted an officer with stun weapons multiple times.
If ATHATH wasn't being malicious, he wouldn't have been inside the HoPs office next to the console attempting to get AA a second time and then say that he was just trying to get a new ID.
If ATHATH wasn't being malicious, he wouldn't have ahelped this situation knowing it was within the rules and accepted the IC consequences for his actions - Instead we have an incredibly long appeal for a note that others have to read.
ATHATH
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by ATHATH » #509610

John_Gobbel wrote:I think the crazy thing about this entire situation is that ATHATH understands the rules and from discussions I've had with others, trying to twist the rules in his favor to do what he wants has been a consistent thing he has done.
You seem to be under the impression that I'm some sort of sinister mastermind who's malevolently manipulating admins to get innocent people banned. Could you provide some evidence that shows that what you are accusing me of doing is "a consisting thing" that I do?
John_Gobbel wrote: There are plenty of ways that ATHATH could have avoided being cremated, but instead of doing so, he took the most belligerent route available to him. He shouldn't be surprised that these altercations ended in him being cremated.
Why should I have been anything BUT belligerent to someone who shotguns down criminals in the halls and then hides their bodies, or someone who immediately leaps to stun batonning when they see someone get all access (and then gives them a 1,000 point gulag sentence for having the AUDACITY to try to avoid being cuffed and dragged away to jail for a minor crime)?
John_Gobbel wrote: And yet he ahelped anyways knowing that only candidates were online.
Image

Again, I am not some malevolent entity that is out to get you. Both your implication that admin candidates are any less legitimate than "real" admins and your accusation that I would intentionally exploit newer admins to get people banned are quite frankly insulting.
John_Gobbel wrote: Keep in mind he believed that I was istoprocent, someone who he already didn't like.
I actually only thought that you were Istoprocent after the round ended (since Istoprocent was your most active defender when I salted about your actions in OOC chat after the round ended).
John_Gobbel wrote: If ATHATH wasn't being malicious, he wouldn't have attempted multiple times to have security infight or be lynched
How was reporting your actions to your superior and the crew an attempt to cause infighting in the sec force(?!?) and cause the crew to lynch you?

John_Gobbel wrote: If ATHATH wasn't being malicious, he wouldn't have assaulted an officer with stun weapons multiple times.
Both of the times that I had "assaulted an officer with stun weapons" took place immediately after said officer hit me with their own stun weapon (their baton).
John_Gobbel wrote: If ATHATH wasn't being malicious, he wouldn't have been inside the HoPs office next to the console attempting to get AA a second time and then say that he was just trying to get a new ID.
I had followed the mime HoP into his office because we both trusted each other and I didn't want to walk around to the public entrance to the HoPline. Yes, I was hoping that my new ID would have AA (who wouldn't?), but I would have accepted whatever access the mime HoP had given me. Do you cremate clowns who ask the (effective) HoP for all access?
John_Gobbel wrote: If ATHATH wasn't being malicious, he wouldn't have ahelped this situation knowing it was within the rules and accepted the IC consequences for his actions - Instead we have an incredibly long appeal for a note that others have to read.
I had ahelped the situation because I believed (and still believe) that your actions were toeing the line, and wanted to give the admins a heads-up that you were doing some questionable things (that weren't technically against the rules). Again, could someone PLEASE post the ahelp logs from my conversations with the admins that round? I think that John thinks that my ahelps were more malevolent/vicious than they actually were.

Again: I am not the Space Devil. I am not out to get you. I am not trying to be malicious here.
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Hulkamania
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Re: [Basil] [OrdoM] CAPTTLasky - Note Appeal for Valid Escalation

Post by Hulkamania » #509624

Functionally to me this is an IC issue.

Sometimes in the game, as has been brought up, you are met with situations where you must make assumptions about things that have occurred. Those assumptions are not always going to be 100% accurate, in which case some unfortunate things can happen like a supposedly innocent person getting put into a bad situation.

Let it be known that giving yourself all access has always been an offense worthy of punishment, it seems to have been implied in this thread that it's a totally normal thing. If you're using all access to get into an area you don't have permission to be in, the access itself is not a waiver that gets you around that.

John Gobbel did his best to interpret the situation given the information at hand, while ATHATH was himself acting on what he had. From my personal standpoint, the conflict between the two of them played out like a normal IC situation would, until the actual cremation occurred. The two of them had been having a back and forth all round, both having their own perspectives and viewpoints leading to the repeated head butting. As has been said, ATHATH had no intention of giving themselves all access again and was merely trying to retrieve an ID for themselves to resume work. The whole situation that follows was a big misunderstanding from the officers viewpoint and led very quickly to lethal action. Gobbel in the moment decided that their previous conflicts were enough evidence to put him away for good in the form of cremation, so he did so.

Should ATHATH have resisted arrest if they were doing nothing wrong? Maybe so. Should John have looked into it more before assuming that they were giving themselves all access? Again, maybe so. In resisting arrest and being assisted by another person, John then made the assumption that he wasn't going to be able to take him down easily and due to previous interactions decided to take a lethal route.

In my opinion, all of this is very much an IC issue, with the round removal being a bit over the line given that he was not actually trying to give himself all access once again, something John didn't know at the time. My verdict as an administrator in that position would be to issue a warning to John; he did not fully interpret the situation properly but I can also see how he would've been led to believe that he had done so.

Where does that leave this thread? Well, honestly the note itself is a temporary one. Those are very very rarely issued, and as such the note will be going away on its own in good time. A temporary note is functionally the same as a warning, as long as the person it is issued to does not get in any further trouble. The admin involved in this case felt that a small note would be warranted, one that will go away on its own, and as I've admitted that I myself would've at least given out a written warning I see no reason to overturn this. If it was a permanent note I wouldn't have said the same.

tl;dr the situation was primarily IC, a cremation was made based on some reasonable assumptions but they could've probably been cleared up. The note itself is temporary and when its gone it'll be like this incident never happened in the first place. Temporary notes may still be technically visible, but an admin has to specifically pull them up like a note that's old.
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