[Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

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wesoda25
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

[Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by wesoda25 » #509859

Byond account and character name: wesoda25 i was probably playing ryan cobb if not random name

Banning admin: zxaber

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Command roles, 3 days

Ban reason and length: Banned from Roles: Captain, Head of Personnel, Head of Security, Chief Engineer, Research Director, Chief Medical Officer for 3 days - Suicided as Captain when Warops was declared, then disconnected before I could ask questions. You really ought to know better. Ahelp and ghost next time, please.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): idk earlier today

Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): bagil

Your side of the story: I go cap to have fun maybe do a gimmick, war ops take that possibility away. I suicide publicly in bar.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Command roles are nonexistent on war ops. Everyone metas AA, and everyone is basically captain. I suicided where people were watching, and made sure to throw my spare and disk out mid suicide so that they could be easily recovered. Aside from that, a captain has no other duties on war ops and because of this I killed myself. Ive never seen anyone punished for suicide on war ops (in command positions) but maybe they are bwoinked and i dont hear about it. i want to have the ban note removed because i am a very good captain and what if i want to be a captain sometime in the next 3 days?
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wesoda25
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by wesoda25 » #509872

also like i always ahelp when i disconnect from a head role. I didnt this time because I honestly didn't know it was bad on war ops.
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bobbahbrown
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:04 am
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Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by bobbahbrown » #510148

This ban occurred in round 116949 on Bagil. (src, statbus, scrubby)
annoyinggreencatgirl
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Uomo91

Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by annoyinggreencatgirl » #510178

I would be curious to hear the rationale behind this ban for future reference, assuming it's not solely that he didn't ahelp his intentions first.

Shortly ago I was in the same situation, and the following was my experience. I went above and beyond to hand off my spare and make sure AA was being distributed, gave the disk to another willing head of staff after asking around, dragged my locker filled with Captain goodies into the hallway outside HoPline for people to help themselves to, then ahelped explaining the aforementioned and asking if I could now suicide since I absolutely hate war ops and want nothing to do with it. I was told I could not, and that (mirroring OP's ban reason) all they could offer me was letting me ghost and giving my body to ghost spawns, which as a static name player I obviously didn't want to do. So I just walked around with my thumb up my butt for the rest of the shift, bored and praying for death or round end.

From round 116629 on Sybil, here is the ahelp exchange.
Spoiler:
[2019-08-21 04:05:49.066] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #4: Uomo91/(Kat Green): So I handed off the disk to another more robust head of staff, I distributed access and the spare and my captain equipment, and made some relevant announcements. Can I kill myself now? I hate war ops.
[2019-08-21 04:06:05.266] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS)->Uomo91/(Kat Green): NO
- we fight
[2019-08-21 04:06:24.687] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Uomo91/(Kat Green)->Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS): I genuinely don't want to, can I kill myself/ghost without facing consequences?
[2019-08-21 04:06:30.051] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS)->Uomo91/(Kat Green): Real talk you can, that was for the meme
[2019-08-21 04:06:38.529] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Uomo91/(Kat Green)->Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS): Ok, thank you.
[2019-08-21 04:06:53.894] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS)->Uomo91/(Kat Green): Just ghost, we can offer it to another ghost
[2019-08-21 04:07:03.207] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Uomo91/(Kat Green)->Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS): I don't want somebody playing as my name.
[2019-08-21 04:07:17.077] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS)->Uomo91/(Kat Green): Beggers can't be choosers
[2019-08-21 04:08:35.094] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Uomo91/(Kat Green)->Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS): What's the problem? I have the disk to the CE.
[2019-08-21 04:08:55.383] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS)->Uomo91/(Kat Green): If you don't want to play, you can ghost, but we can't change the name of the character.
[2019-08-21 04:09:15.988] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Uomo91/(Kat Green)->Dr. Aura/(Tickles-The-INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS): I understand that much, just wondering why I couldn't just suicide.
What I am curious about; why does it really matter and what effect did Ryan's death have on the round? Why is ghosting and not suiciding this thing of apparently critical importance? Anyone not randomnaming is not going to want to do that. I don't understand why anybody should have to suffer through this shitty, boring, zero-RP game mode if they don't want to, the suicide rate when it's declared speaks for itself, and as the OP mentioned head of staff roles (with the exception of AI) are functionally pointless during war ops anyway.
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wesoda25
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by wesoda25 » #510212

Never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Kat Green but yeah. What exactly is the point of the rule? I thought it was because captain is important to gameplay and makes important decisions, and yet on war ops anything the cap decides that doesn't correlate with the meta is ignored. I doubt I harmed the round at all by suiciding, if admins hadn't let me suicide I probably would have just passed off my duties to someone else and cooked food the rest of the shift, which is any different from suicide because???? and yet I would not get bwoinked for that.
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zxaber
In-Game Admin
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:00 am
Byond Username: Zxaber

Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by zxaber » #510249

Rules as written, you're not supposed to suicide (or just silently DC) as a head of staff. I understand the apprehension of having someone else run around with your name, but it's one of those "I don't make the rules" things, and is a conversation that belongs in a policy thread. I can't speak for all admins, but I personally would not have an issue changing the name of the mob after a ghost takes over, if I were asked to.

The gamemode being what it is should never be an excuse for breaking rules, large or small. As an aside, throwing the disk randomly into the bar just adds to the chaos; the other heads that might want to lead the crew forward now have to make sense of what you did and track down the disk.

The long and short of it is I don't plan to remove this ban outside headmin intervention. I don't think three days is terribly unfair for a near-roundstart captain suicide.
Douglas Bickerson / Adaptive Manipulator / Digital Clockwork
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OrdoM/(Viktor Bergmannsen) (ghost) "Also Douglas, you're becoming the Lexia Black of Robotics"
annoyinggreencatgirl
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Uomo91

Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by annoyinggreencatgirl » #510252

zxaber wrote:Rules as written, you're not supposed to suicide (or just silently DC) as a head of staff.
It is oft repeated in this section of the forums that the spirit of the law is far more important than the letter of the law, to justify certain bans or notes that don't align 100% with what is literally written in the rules but still deemed punishable. Should the same not apply in reverse for leniency? What wesoda did may have been against the rules as written, but in what way did he negatively impact the round in question, or in what ways do you realistically think he would have behaved similarly in different circumstances if he went unpunished for this? Further, the only precedent we seem to have for this is a headmin ruling that roundstart suicide as an important role is disallowed. I think it is highly subjective what qualifies as "roundstart" or even what an "important role" is especially in war ops, and while wesoda could have and should have done far more in this situation to hand off his responsibilities, I did quote an ahelp exchange where I did basically everything possible and was still told no.
zxaber wrote:The gamemode being what it is should never be an excuse for breaking rules, large or small.
Would you be prepared to enforce this in war ops in the case of other players attacking heads of staff for not giving out AA/armory access, or other heads of staff attacking the Captain because they think they can secure the disk better than them? I have seen both happen but I'm unsure what if any administrative action resulted.
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zxaber
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:00 am
Byond Username: Zxaber

Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by zxaber » #510260

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
zxaber wrote:Rules as written, you're not supposed to suicide (or just silently DC) as a head of staff.
It is oft repeated in this section of the forums that the spirit of the law is far more important than the letter of the law, to justify certain bans or notes that don't align 100% with what is literally written in the rules but still deemed punishable. Should the same not apply in reverse for leniency? What wesoda did may have been against the rules as written, but in what way did he negatively impact the round in question, or in what ways do you realistically think he would have behaved similarly in different circumstances if he went unpunished for this? Further, the only precedent we seem to have for this is a headmin ruling that roundstart suicide as an important role is disallowed. I think it is highly subjective what qualifies as "roundstart" or even what an "important role" is especially in war ops, and while wesoda could have and should have done far more in this situation to hand off his responsibilities, I did quote an ahelp exchange where I did basically everything possible and was still told no.
Basically, adding extra chaos into warops round by just throwing the disk out and then suiciding to get out of the round isn't great. I'm not sure to what extent that affected the round, but I doubt it helped the crew.

The reason I intend to uphold this ban is because the proper way to remove yourself as a head of staff (ahelp and ghost) isn't really hard to do, and that I hold a belief that rules shouldn't get to be ignored just because the gamemode is cancer.

For the record, and I again cannot speak for every admin, but if you appointed a replacement captain, gave them all of your gear, and then ahelped that you had done so, I personally would allow the suicide. If you'd like something more concrete in that regard, a policy thread really is the way to go.
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
zxaber wrote:The gamemode being what it is should never be an excuse for breaking rules, large or small.
Would you be prepared to enforce this in war ops in the case of other players attacking heads of staff for not giving out AA/armory access, or other heads of staff attacking the Captain because they think they can secure the disk better than them? I have seen both happen but I'm unsure what if any administrative action resulted.
I certainly would. I don't think the presence of a warops message means the rest of the rules fall out the window, and that includes rules about killing sec for not allowing armory access or killing the HoP and Captain to loot their gear.
Douglas Bickerson / Adaptive Manipulator / Digital Clockwork
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OrdoM/(Viktor Bergmannsen) (ghost) "Also Douglas, you're becoming the Lexia Black of Robotics"
annoyinggreencatgirl
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:55 pm
Byond Username: Uomo91

Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by annoyinggreencatgirl » #510264

Fair enough, thank you for your replies.
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Krusvik
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:19 pm
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Re: [Zxaber] Suiciding as Cap on Warops

Post by Krusvik » #511345

Ban has expired, locking and moving this thread.
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