[Thunder12345] PolishUser - Innocent perma removal server ban/jobban

[Polish_User]

BYOND account: PolishUser
Character name: JC Denton
Ban type: Server/Scientist Job ban
Ban length: Job 3 Days/Server wide 1 Day
Ban reason: Bombed medbay next to genetics as a scientist, gibbing an innocent person. Just you were trying to kill a traitor with it does not make this reasonable.(can't tell the jobban reason since I am serverbanned)
Time ban was placed: 2019-09-05 13:04:49
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 117881
Your side of the story: So, after helping with killing the blob with bombs I went towards the medbay and saw antagonist beating with a stunbatton a detective (I think, not sure about that). He shot me with energized crossbow once, but missed, then I panicked, reacted quick by throwing the bomb at antag killing him instantly and unofrtunanetly gibbing the guy who he was beating up, also it is worth to mention that shift was going to end, since shuttle could not be recalled and didn't have that much time to arrive.
Why you think you should be unbanned: Ok, I am going to say it right here I belive that the ban is Justified and I clearly deserved it, if the guy who i gibbed ahelped it and was pissed off about it. If that is the case I can Only ask for is the job ban removal since Science is one of my favourite branches to play as and I usually like to help out new people, who want to make nanites/maxcaps/the RnD order. What I was doing was in good faith, since I am not kind of guy just to detonate bombs randomly as non-antag and grief, people who often play science like Arathian can confirm this, good example of me trying to help out the station at that time was bombing the blob there. I've realized what I have done was wrong in that instance by using too big power to take out baddie down resulting in perma-round removal of an innocent person, which isn't ok but on the other hand if i had ran away from the trait that guy would've died anyways providing named antag with better gear/access causing danger to different people, so it means that i'd potentialy saved different crewman.

[Gigapuddi420]

The role ban reason is the same as the server ban.

As for policy on using bombs to kill antagonists: Headmin Rulings page.

Weapons of Mass Destruction to counter antagonists: An example of this is suicide bombing a wizard or BoH bombing the cult base. If use of the weapon does not win the round for your side immediately after, then it is grief and will be treated as such by admins.

[Arathian]

Since I was specifically mentioned, I can indeed note that I never had problem with Denton randomly bombing stuff.

I always play RD and often try to micromanage the explosives and Denton is usually packed with them yet he never griefs with them.

I won't further note on this ban because it would be peanut, just character witness.

[Timonk]

I was the detective Kobe Catster. I was freshly cloned, saw the traitor that killed me, and chased him with a stun baton. He eventually got the stun on me first after throwing his ebow in my direction, he picked up his ebow and started killing me again. I called for help, jc came and panicked, threw a maxcap at my location, the traitor booked it and he detonated. Keep in mind that I did not ahelp this and I think he genuinely didn't mean to hit me and just panicked.

[Polish_User]

Ok, since my server ban is over. I am requesting the serverban note removal since the victim wasn't genuinely upset about this:

I was the detective Kobe Catster. I was freshly cloned, saw the traitor that killed me, and chased him with a stun baton. He eventually got the stun on me first after throwing his ebow in my direction, he picked up his ebow and started killing me again. I called for help, jc came and panicked, threw a maxcap at my location, the traitor booked it and he detonated. Keep in mind that I did not ahelp this and I think he genuinely didn't mean to hit me and just panicked.

and I don't belive that i had ruined someone else's experience by doing that.
Also, my job ban appeal is still active.

[Timonk]

I mean, you didn't ruin my experience, but maybe someone else would have reacted differently

[Polish_User]

I mean, you didn't ruin my experience, but maybe someone else would have reacted differently

That is true, If that was the case I wouldn't be even asking about the note removal.

[Arianya]

Thunder has asked for this to be picked up in their absence as they're unavailable.

I've looked through the relevant logs and I can't see any good reason to remove this note or the remaining couple of day or so of role ban.

As a general rule, we don't care if someone has ahelped something or not - rule infringing actions are rule infringing regardless of if they get ahelped. The fact that the one person you killed doesn't care about getting gibbed by you doesn't really reduce the hole you left in the station that others would have to deal with.

As a general rule, we also discourage bombing as a solution in all but the most severe situations (interrupting a cult summoning, stopping a rampant wizard, etc) and as Gigapuddi noted, we have a specific ruling that this should be avoided unless it's literally a roundwin condition.

The explosion in question wasn't quite a maxcap but was pretty darn close, and in a pretty central area of medbay (this is in the firedoor leading into the morgue, just south of cloning and just north of the surplus storeroom):

[2019-09-05 13:01:21.967] GAME: Bomb valve opened in Medbay Aft (91, 85, 2) with <A HREF='?_src_=holder;admin_token=621089641801029362710536316506310506;secrets=list_signalers'>The remote signaling device</A> attached by <a href='?priv_msg=polishuser'>PolishUser</a>/(JC Denton) - Last touched by: <a href='?priv_msg=polishuser'>PolishUser</a>/(JC Denton)
[2019-09-05 13:01:22.575] GAME: Explosion with size (4, 8, 16, 0) in (Medbay Aft (91, 85, 2))

(Logs acquired from https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... 1/game.log trimmed for relevancy)

Overall I can't see much to justify removing the note or remaining role ban - they're both pretty minor and justified by what you did, and serve as a good record in case you have future issues with the use of bombs. As a result I'll be denying the appeal.

As I wasn't the admin on the scene, I do admit there's something I may have missed, so feel free to correct me if anything is wrong in this.

Obviously a headmin may overrule if they feel it's appropriate.

[Polish_User]

Thunder has asked for this to be picked up in their absence as they're unavailable.

I've looked through the relevant logs and I can't see any good reason to remove this note or the remaining couple of day or so of role ban.

As a general rule, we don't care if someone has ahelped something or not - rule infringing actions are rule infringing regardless of if they get ahelped. The fact that the one person you killed doesn't care about getting gibbed by you doesn't really reduce the hole you left in the station that others would have to deal with.

As a general rule, we also discourage bombing as a solution in all but the most severe situations (interrupting a cult summoning, stopping a rampant wizard, etc) and as Gigapuddi noted, we have a specific ruling that this should be avoided unless it's literally a roundwin condition.

The explosion in question wasn't quite a maxcap but was pretty darn close, and in a pretty central area of medbay (this is in the firedoor leading into the morgue, just south of cloning and just north of the surplus storeroom):

[2019-09-05 13:01:21.967] GAME: Bomb valve opened in Medbay Aft (91, 85, 2) with <A HREF='?_src_=holder;admin_token=621089641801029362710536316506310506;secrets=list_signalers'>The remote signaling device</A> attached by <a href='?priv_msg=polishuser'>PolishUser</a>/(JC Denton) - Last touched by: <a href='?priv_msg=polishuser'>PolishUser</a>/(JC Denton)
[2019-09-05 13:01:22.575] GAME: Explosion with size (4, 8, 16, 0) in (Medbay Aft (91, 85, 2))

(Logs acquired from https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... 1/game.log trimmed for relevancy)

Overall I can't see much to justify removing the note or remaining role ban - they're both pretty minor and justified by what you did, and serve as a good record in case you have future issues with the use of bombs. As a result I'll be denying the appeal.

As I wasn't the admin on the scene, I do admit there's something I may have missed, so feel free to correct me if anything is wrong in this.

Obviously a headmin may overrule if they feel it's appropriate.

That's correct, maybe isn't going to reduce the hole, which others would perhaps have to deal with, since it may seem that you've missed one point, that the shuttle was on the way to the station. I don't remember how long it was until it's arrival but I can guarantee you that it clearly was under 5 minutes, meaning that it couldn't be recalled. Now tell me who would be fixing holes in the station when they're going to leave it and end the round?

[Arianya]

snip

That's correct, maybe isn't going to reduce the hole, which others would perhaps have to deal with, since it may seem that you've missed one point, that the shuttle was on the way to the station. I don't remember how long it was until it's arrival but I can guarantee you that it clearly was under 5 minutes, meaning that it couldn't be recalled. Now tell me who would be fixing holes in the station when they're going to leave it and end the round?

Generally we don't care about how close the shuttle is for rule infractions (see "the round isn't over till it's over") and even if we did it would work against you in this case - since you disabled cloning and made a space hole right next to the departure lounge that would impede people leaving the station unless they were already EVA'd up, so I don't really find this a compelling argument.

[Polish_User]

snip

That's correct, maybe isn't going to reduce the hole, which others would perhaps have to deal with, since it may seem that you've missed one point, that the shuttle was on the way to the station. I don't remember how long it was until it's arrival but I can guarantee you that it clearly was under 5 minutes, meaning that it couldn't be recalled. Now tell me who would be fixing holes in the station when they're going to leave it and end the round?

Generally we don't care about how close the shuttle is for rule infractions (see "the round isn't over till it's over") and even if we did it would work against you in this case - since you disabled cloning and made a space hole right next to the departure lounge that would impede people leaving the station unless they were already EVA'd up, so I don't really find this a compelling argument.

Really? Would it impede them more than an active antag, who can possibly kill a cremember everywhere on the station with many many ways? I don't think that people would be stupid enough to wait in a room with a hole to the space without any EVA suit. Even if they didn't have any space protection they only would've only passed this room to get on the shuttle and possibly recieve minimal brute damage. The room was mostly intact and it wasn't impossible to get on the shuttle with a huge difficulty. So I don't think if it would work against me in that case.

What's more about the WDM's ruling/policy there's this one note covering all the headmin ruling's, I quote from /tg/'s wiki :

Please note: Some of these questions are for very niche/specific situations. Some of them cannot be applied the same way to every situation.

Also, the topic about the WDM's covered an extreme example of a huge chunk of non antags dying, because of the WDM's use, that example isn't as comperable as to what I did. When we add the context behind that action and the fact that the gibbed person didn't have their experience ruined I don't think that it was a big deal.

[Arianya]

You're correct in that it wasn't a "big deal" - a big deal would have resulted in a much longer server ban and possibly a permanent role ban from scientist. As bomb related bans go this is pretty much a slap on the wrist.

Realistically this is a pretty clear cut part of how we enforce the rules - do not use near-maxcaps (or really bombs in general, but especially bombs in maxcap range) to kill a single traitor or the like. The policy ruling is specifically about an instance in which non-antagonist crew can use WMDs on station, it's an exception to the general rule of "don't use WMDs on station".

If this ban appeal had been dealt with on the same day, I might have dismissed the remaining server ban time to reflect the fact that the person who was killed by you didn't feel hard done by, but the note is both factually accurate and not wildly unfair to you, and the role ban feels appropriate as it covers the misuse of bombs regardless of the person affected.

There's no real "Is it worse then an antagonist" balance to be struck here - don't use bombs on station for (relative to the bomb) minor threats.

I appreciate this may not be the answer you want, but I will say that this really isn't the end of the world - if you don't have near-future issues regarding bombs it will likely not impact your experience on /tg/.

At this point I don't feel there's much to add, so I'll lock this and leave it a couple of days for headmins to chip in if they so feel like.