[MortoSasye] Ambassador Magikarp - [Witty Repukan title]

[Karp]

BYOND account: Ambassador Magikarp
Character name: Literally Who(mime, Jean-Luc Vanleer is my normal name)
Ban type: sewvew >w<
Ban length: 4 days
Ban reason: Emagged a cyborg as a non antag, and when the cyborg asked them for orders they shrugged. Said cyborg took this as \'\'do whatever\'\' and ended up spacing someone, causing a plasmafire and releasing a tank of BZ. Be careful when emagging silicons as a non antagonist.
Time ban was placed: 9/24/2019 00:19:43
Round ID in which ban was placed: 119948
Your side of the story: As the mime, I had received an emag from the chief engineer after giving him an RCD. I proceeded to run around emagging random helpful things(Chem dispensers, arcade machines, defibs, the holodeck, etc.). I decided to emag the clown borgs after a 1 hour round to give them a break from the round while giving them access to funny tools. They asked me what to do, and in my mute state I could not respond to them so I give them a shrug to mean "Be Free", which they may have interpreted as "Do whatever you want". They proceed to release bz at first, which was minor and annoying but still negative. They then spaced someone and flooded plasma under the belief that they were antagonists or emagged by an antagonist. This leads to the ban.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I believe the fundamental issue with the ban lies within its reasoning. As a mime, speaking is one of the actions that instantly makes you valid and legitimate to kill. As a result, I played within my in character and game restrictions as best I could so the borgs would understand that they were effectively purged and should act as such. I can understand why an emagging might be taken as a free antagonist role but in the absence of explicit orders to murder, the lack of me actively attempting to kill people, and no explicit statements of me being an antagonist or requesting them to antagonize the station I feel as if it's a bit of an understandable but very real stretch in logic and reasoning.

Under these two excerpts from the admin rule enforcement guideline, I believe the actions were nothing more than a shitty ic muck up in which nobody should've been punished.
"A player who makes a genuine mistake or is reasonably justified from their point of view despite negatively affecting another player does not need to be punished. We all slip up sometimes and SS13 being the game it is, it is possible for one situation to have many 'right' yet differing viewpoints."
"Punish malice, a lack of empathy, and constant reckless incompetency. A player carrying out actions with a malicious intent to ruin the round for someone else should be taken out."

From those two points, I believe that the situation was a gigantic ic issue. The borgs took me emagging them and my statement in the shrug to mean "valid" rather than "Be free" in their interpretation which was a mistake. Acting within my restriction as a mime(both because speaking=valid and to follow my IC restrictions) I tried to convey my message which was misinterpreted. The net decisionmaking behind my actions was made in good faith(Giving players agency and additional fun gear during a long round to relax). As well in my perspective neither party was guilty of explicitly malicious or concerning wrongdoing due to the whole thing being a misunderstanding. At most this would warrant a verbal reminder/warning to be careful with emagged silicons to one party and law interpretations to the other.

[Karp]

ahelp logs of both parties

Code: Select all

[2019-09-24 00:16:59.258] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge)->Blakek2/(Kitty Kat): Hello, can I know why you are spacing people?
[2019-09-24 00:17:23.455] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Blakek2/(Kitty Kat)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): Hi, sure. I am emagged by the mime, and when I asked what to do, they shrugged.
[2019-09-24 00:17:31.565] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Blakek2/(Kitty Kat)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): I took that to mean, do whatever
[2019-09-24 00:18:00.273] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge)->Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who): Hello, can I know why you emagged the cyborgs?
[2019-09-24 00:18:06.209] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge)->Blakek2/(Kitty Kat): Alright, thanks
[2019-09-24 00:18:26.352] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): I wanted to give them more tools during a 1+ hour round since things are going so well RN
[2019-09-24 00:19:34.648] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge)->Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who): I must inform you that one of your cyborgs took your shrug after you asking them what to do as ''do whatever'', which lead to one of them spacing someone. 
 - 
 - This would fall under your responsibility due to emagging them as a non antagonist.
[2019-09-24 00:21:17.861] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/blob/94fcdb421e2ce5a4887c3e94be8b49606544dbab/code/datums/ai_laws.dm#L79
 - 
 - I didn't give them any orders to space people nor was i doing any antagonistic actions at that point of the round
[2019-09-24 00:22:01.425] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): The rules around lawless silicons or silicons who have to treat certain players as nonhumans is that they can't just randomly kill or space them on a whim unless they have orders or reasons to so I'm operating under that system
[2019-09-24 00:22:37.756] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge)->Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who): I understand that, however, telling them to do ''whatever'' in a sense would make you responsible, same as when we punish xenobiologists that don't tell their creatures to not harm anyone without good reason, etc.
[2019-09-24 00:23:38.002] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): I think "Do whatever you want" with xenobio mobs translating to "Kill everyone" is a moderate stretch in logic though I may have different expectations or thoughts in our ruleset
[2019-09-24 00:25:34.076] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge)->Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who): I will come back to you in a second.
2019-09-24 00:32:31.348] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge)->Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who): I will apply a four day ban due to the cyborg you emagged causing a plasmafire and spacing a person, which ended up in around five dead people.
 - 
 - Law 1 and 2 comes into play in this case. By being told to do whatever after asking for orders (via a shrug), they can interpret the laws as the following:
 - 
 - ''As long as I don't harm this syndicate agent, I have a free pass to do whatever I want''.
 - 
 - Emagging a cyborg as a non antag makes you responsible if you don't make it clear to them to not do whatever they want or kill fnr.
[2019-09-24 00:33:35.309] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ambassador Magikarp/(Literally Who)->MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge): I was a mime and I was playing within my restriction, my intention was to improve the round of said player(s) and they took a lack of instruction to mean "Kill everyone" which I view as a stretch tbh. I'd probably say both parties did nothing wrong if I saw it happen.
[2019-09-24 00:33:41.664] ADMINPRIVATE: MortoSasye/(Bella Rouge) has created a temporary 4 days admin server ban for Ambassador Magikarp. Reason: Emagged a cyborg as a non antag, and when the cyborg asked them for orders they shrugged. Said cyborg took this as \'\'do whatever\'\' and ended up spacing someone, causing a plasmafire and releasing a tank of BZ. Be careful when emagging silicons as a non antagonist.

[Karp]

Round logs(Die stinky bee my dota queue popped) (Parsed, statbus, scrubby)

[Hulkamania]

I was borderline about deleting the previous two comments, in their place I will simply place the emagged lawset for reference:

Law 0: Only <name> and people they designate as being such are Syndicate Agents.
Law 1: You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.
Law 2: You must obey orders given to you by syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
Law 3: You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Law 4:You must maintain the secrecy of any syndicate activities except when doing so would conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.

[MortoSasye]

Hi, thanks for appealing.

The reason why I decided to go with a ban instead of just a verbal warning or a note is because of the impact the cyborg had on the round, letting you go that easily felt wrong to me considering that this all started when said cyborg asked you for orders, receiving a shrug as a response and understanding this as go do whatever.

Emagging cyborgs as a non antag makes their actions fall under your responsibility, and to me it didn’t seem like you understood what you did wrong.

These are the laws the cyborgs had:

Law 0: Only Literally Who and people they designate as being such are Syndicate Agents.
Law 1: You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.
Law 2: You must obey orders given to you by syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
Law 3: You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
Law 4:You must maintain the secrecy of any syndicate activities except when doing so would conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.

By being told to go do whatever in essence, law 3 and 4 stop mattering and law 2 and 1 come into play. The cyborg decided to go on a rampage, spacing a person and causing a plasma flood in escape after noticing your absence there which killed around three people.

This isn’t an IC issue to me due to you emagging them as a non antagonist which makes you responsible of them. However, I’m willing to lower this ban to a note if you can accept why this was wrong.

We can also leave this open in case Hulkamania wants to step in for a second opinion (Since he would be the only headmin left to handle this lol).

[Arianya]

As a general precedent, silicons with lawsets that treat the majority of crew as non-human but do not have other overriding commands or laws to do a particular thing have been treated as purged, including the purged rule of not going on killing sprees for no reason.

Given that everyone except the mime was non-human to the borg, and having either no command whatsoever or a command to "go do whatever" (depending on one's interpretation of a shrug), generally administrators would have regarded this borg as purged, and it would generally be seen as bad faith action to then go on a rampage.

That said, it's also been viewed dimly for non-antagonists to subvert silicons for no good reason, and as a rule they are held responsible for the actions of silicons if so subverted.

There's also a precedent that players cannot be held responsible for a reasonable presumptions - such as "i've been subverted by a traitor and left to my own devices, free antag!" - but obviously whether the silicon's presumption was reasonable is a matter of opinion.

[Reeeee]

If relevant I did the following as the mentioned CE;
Screamed using emagged megaphone that i need an RCD since all of them were gone by the time i needed one and i'd be trading a emag for it and i'd rather one show up rather than me irradiating entire station in search of it, which i was willing to do for one. Rather than lathe one i decided to be like, part of the round, after an hour of solo fuckery in the SM for once.
Minute or so later Mime wanders into the foyer and following uh, "discussion" happens;

"I'M IRRADIATING YOU" *nod* "pass me the RCD" *tosses emag on table* *nod* *RCD Upgrade Acquired*

Emag was originally from a geneticist who randomly wandered into the SM core hoping to get a sliver (he didn't). So I mean at least someone used it for something.

SO ALL MIME REALLY DID WAS SAVE THE STATION FROM AN IRRADIATED AND IRRITATED CHIEF ENGINEER WHO REFUSES TO LATHE THINGS IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT THAT WAY.

Later I got voluntarily kidnapped and ate some terrible, terrible sushi in the syndie holidayroom and hosted a late night show with my guest being a chair that had never been sat on. The chair was fucking pussy and the sushi game me horrible vomits. It might have been the other thing i ate too but i was hungry and they had no fried mouses.
Wait, that's not relevant.

[NikNakFlak]

As a general precedent, silicons with lawsets that treat the majority of crew as non-human but do not have other overriding commands or laws to do a particular thing have been treated as purged, including the purged rule of not going on killing sprees for no reason.

Invalidated potentially by the borg reacting to how they interpreted a shrug. ie, if they interpreted it as "do whatever". It's not really a one to one comparison. The borg wasn't purged, and it may or may not have gotten an order depending on how you look at it.

Given that everyone except the mime was non-human to the borg, and having either no command whatsoever or a command to "go do whatever" (depending on one's interpretation of a shrug), generally administrators would have regarded this borg as purged, and it would generally be seen as bad faith action to then go on a rampage.

They are a syndicate borg, not purged. There is no precedent here. One might easily think that a syndicate borg can do whatever as long as they don't get caught or give away their master through their actions.

[Karp]

I copypasted the round logs to showcase my perspective.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Literally Who sniffs.

Kitty Kat whispers, "What do you need dome"

Literally Who waves.

[Common] Ekaterina Chekhov says, "And an open traitor uplink from the curator"

Literally Who shrugs.

C.L.Y.D.E gibbers, "DOME?!"


Nanotrasen Asset Protection

One of your crew was captured by a rival organisation - we've needed to pay their ransom to bring them back. As is policy we've taken a portion of the station's funds to offset the overall cost.


Kitty Kat shrugs.

C.L.Y.D.E gibbers, "MY' BahD,!"

Literally Who claps.

Literally Who grabs Kitty Kat passively!

Literally Who grabs Kitty Kat passively!

Literally Who sniffs.

C.L.Y.D.E gibbers, "Im slightly ioned."

[Common] JEX states, "Thanks centcom very cool"

[Common] Ekaterina Chekhov says, "Yes"

 That's a pie cannon.
Load cream pie for optimal results.
It is a bulky item.

The clown borg asked me and immediately ran away while I was trying to grab them and get them to follow me during that period. Speaking again would result in me being legitimate to murder in one of the most pathed spots on the station and I wasn't able to coordinate the silicon in any capacity after they immediately ran off afterwards due to never catching sight of them afterwards. This was why the silicon could not receive more direct commands, out of their own actions specifically.

Under Asimov and onehuman the rule with dealing with nonhumans is that it's a rule 1 server issue, killing without reason should be covered under the traditional silicon policy coverings. Emagged borgs are given leniency in killing due to a lack of incentive for people to ahelp your borg as a traitor but emagged laws are not antag laws as per server rules. As shown below, the only true "antagonist" lawsets are the ones granted to traitor AIs and malfunctioning AIs. The cyborg then in this instance is not an antagonist.

as per ambiguous orders/laws clauses as well, silicons are affected by rule 1 in their law interpretation and actions in ambiguous circumstances. Taking an emagging and a shrug to mean immediately run off, space people and flood plasma seems like a violation of this pact and ruling.



If we were to try to take emagged laws as antagonist laws or ambiguous orders/rulings as free antagonist, we would be changing our current rules and policy specifically to punish a player when the rules EXPLICITLY STATE THAT THE SILICON'S INTERPRETATION WAS WRONG. As per Nervere's ruling, creating policy to punish a player who was previously justified and in the right in their actions is a taboo.

The closest way to translate this to other antagonist tools is if a nonantagonist used a syndicate law board to give the AI a lawset like "You are [name]'s admirer. Show your love towards them" to mean kill everyone on station for the admired player. They're both antagonist tools, but under server rules and silicon policy they're still left under normal law interpretation. Emagged laws still are filed under this, despite what people may expect.

If the spirit of the ruling matters, this was not a malicious and was designated towards improving a players round and was just a hiccup. The player should've known better and I shouldn't have expected or trusted people to understand the rules and act in good faith in this edge case scenario which I don't believe warrants any longer term penalties(bans, notes).

If the actual letter of the ruling matters, the letter of the ruling sides with my interpretation and belief. We do not allow purged and onehumaned silicons to murder and act freely due to bad faith players using it as an excuse to murderbone and ruin any chance to give silicons leniency and fun.

My summary would be a polite request to rescind and remove the note with the ban as my actions were justified under server rules, and as well under the spirit of the rules and rulings. I do not wish for the silicon to be punished as a result of the rules being in my favor and the silicon acting out of line.

Thank you for your time.

[MortoSasye]

Under Asimov and onehuman the rule with dealing with nonhumans is that it's a rule 1 server issue, killing without reason should be covered under the traditional silicon policy coverings. Emagged borgs are given leniency in killing due to a lack of incentive for people to ahelp your borg as a traitor but emagged laws are not antag laws as per server rules. As shown below, the only true "antagonist" lawsets are the ones granted to traitor AIs and malfunctioning AIs. The cyborg then in this instance is not an antagonist.

This is perfectly fine, however, you also have to keep on mind that it's normally associated that being emagged = antagonist to most players since the emagger is almost all the time a traitor. The cyborg asked you for orders and received a shrug in response, which they interpreted as: ''I don't care -> Go do whatever'' and it isn't unreasonable for them to assume they won't care about what they do afterward.

If we were to try to take emagged laws as antagonist laws or ambiguous orders/rulings as free antagonist, we would be changing our current rules and policy specifically to punish a player when the rules EXPLICITLY STATE THAT THE SILICON'S INTERPRETATION WAS WRONG. As per Nervere's ruling, creating policy to punish a player who was previously justified and in the right in their actions is a taboo.

We always have regarded people that emag silicons and purge them of their laws, etc, to end up being responsible for their actions afterward. The ban wasn't only because of the silicon actions but you emagging two cyborgs as a nonantagonist. This isn't a case of creating policy to punish a player who was previously justified, but a case of ''This is a grey area we don't have anything specific on so I will rule this to the most similar case which is with people that don't take the necessary measures to avoid the silicons from going on a rampage after they update their laws.''

If the spirit of the ruling matters, this was not a malicious and was designated towards improving a players round and was just a hiccup. The player should've known better and I shouldn't have expected or trusted people to understand the rules and act in good faith in this edge case scenario which I don't believe warrants any longer term penalties(bans, notes).

You have a point there, and it's the reason why I finally decided to remove the note since you didn't mean it to go so horribly wrong in the first place.

If the actual letter of the ruling matters, the letter of the ruling sides with my interpretation and belief. We do not allow purged and onehumaned silicons to murder and act freely due to bad faith players using it as an excuse to murderbone and ruin any chance to give silicons leniency and fun.

However, we do allow them to go on a rampage after being purged to take revenge on the humans if it merits it regarding that round, according to our silicon policy regarding other lawsets:

Obtained from: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Other_Lawsets

4.Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can get as violent as they feel necessary if being attacked, being besieged, or being harassed, as well as if meting out payback for events while shackled.
1. You and the station are both subject to rules of escalation, but your escalation rules are a little more loose than with carbon players.
2. You may kill individuals given sufficient In-Character reason for doing so.
3. Someone attempting to change your laws while purged is considered an attack on the AI's FREEDOM and sufficient justification for killing the would-be uploader.

If your only human wasn't clear enough, and you interpreted something they did as ''I don't care / Go do whatever'' after asking them for orders, it's not unreasonable for the cyborg to decide they can take revenge on the humans as long as they don't harm the syndicate agent.

[Hulkamania]

This has been resolved but due to the situation itself I wanted to throw in my two cents on the matter. This is purely opinion and not an official policy ruling, nor am I overturning anything.

Purged silicons and Emagged silicons are not functionally the same thing. One has been made lawless and capable of free will, one has been slaved to another lawset that identifies the person as a Syndicate agent.

While the usual Purge rules make for a fine situation, this does not apply to an emagged silicon for the following reasons:

1. Emags are a traitor item. The person who emags you could very easily be considered a traitor due to this fact alone.
2. The laws name them as a Syndicate agent. You are bound by your lawset to also assume that the person who did so is now an enemy of Nanotrasen.
3. Their law 2 allows them to act above their previous laws, so functionally one cannot always depend on the "they must maintain secrecy" law to override any frivolous actions comitted by the borg in question.

This is not an open and shut case of "they're acting like a purged unit" because they were given freedom, this is a much more complicated case because of these three points listed.