[<Dr. Aura>] <CataChaos> - Unfair ban

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PrinceThespian
 
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Byond Username: CataChaos

[<Dr. Aura>] <CataChaos> - Unfair ban

Postby PrinceThespian » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:54 am #518195

CataChaos <BYOND account>

Thes Pian <Character name at time of ban>

Banned from the server for a day, command roles for a week

1440 minutes from server, 10080 from command roles. <Permanent, 5 days, etc>

Ban reason: As a non-antag HoP, executed a cargo tech for presumed association with a Cargo-lead mutiny who was not involved with it, did so without Captain or HoS approval. Command roles are not a free pass to kill people.

2019-10-6 2:33:12

Sybil

120802

Captain decides to start gulaging lizard and feline players. I go along with it at first, and follow orders and help round people up. Security was in on it at first to. It seemed like a joke. Captain called it summer camp. Captain keeps it up though to the point it isn't a joke. So I go and ask centcomm what to do. They say "The situation isnt ideal, but they will make the gulag less gulagy." Fine whatever. Situation continues and cargo splits from the station in a revolution. I try to negotiate. They use force against me. I try several more times to negotiate. They fire on me with lethals. So I leave. Ask centcomm what to do. They tell me to try to maroon them on lavaland. I tell security to get started, but cargo somehow finds out and leaves. I find a cargonian in bar. I detain them and take them to a secluded location. I tell them to tell me where their leader is. The refuse. Several times. I threaten them with death. They refuse again. So I kill them. They had already fired on me with lethals. Multiple of them in lavaland. Besides that they were in revolution. The admin says that this one was not involved. But how was I supposed to know that? I was fired on by 5-6 cargonians, and they were actively talking about the revolution on comms. The guy also acted like a rev. I asked him where the rev leader was and he told me he wouldn't tell me. He never made any claim to not be apart of it. To reiterate cargo used lethal force on me, and refused to negotiate. To that end, I treated them like traitors because that is what they were.

My ban was unfair. There was proper escalation and a real cargo revolution. There was proper rp and escalation all around. The admin is trying to say I should have got HOS or Captain permission, but the captain and hos were being dumbasses. They were not in the equation whatsoever. Captain died gulaging people, and HOS as far as I know was dead as well. With captain being unfit for duty with his obvious real life brain trauma I was next in command. Regardless of that though, I can find nothing in the rules where I had to get their permission to kill someone at all in the first place. But besides that "Command roles are not a free pass to kill people." doesnt make any sense either. I wasn't walking around indiscriminately murdering, or even murdering for no reason. I killed a total of one people, and I had a reason. When I was conversing with the admin it felt like they had a personal grudge against me, like they were actively trying to get me banned. They tried to deny their was even a revolution at first, and tried to make it seem like I was lying. Then they were like "Good news for you there was a revolution". Didnt say anything about my reasoning about HOS and Captain being incompetent, and then tried to find another reason to punish me (I fired a disabler at someone or something and they asked me about that.) Their tone just felt off. My ban was for 1 day. It honestly isnt even worth fighting, but it is extremely unfair. I have been playing on TG for like 6 months, I have several hundred hours on your severs. I have always taken punishment for being a retard when it is due, and learned from my mistakes. It isn't due now.
Last edited by PrinceThespian on Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Dr. Aura
 
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:18 am
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Re: [<Dr. Aura>] <CataChaos> - Unfair ban

Postby Dr. Aura » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:20 am #518218

FIRAC me, here we go again.

Facts:
Unlike what the claimant is stating, the ban took place in the next round given the rest of the caseload pertaining to this event. The actual round that the instances took place on is the prior on the same server (https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 8/game.log)

The Captain made a largely unneeded decision that subjected felids and lizards to the gulag,

[2019-10-06 01:04:56.045] SAY: ToastGoats/(Paul Grumblestumpskin) (station announcement from the �Captain's Desk requests console) "Greetings station! To honor my recent promotion, I'd like to introduce a revolutionary new system where all our felinids will be placed on a cool new work camp on lavaland!" (Captain's Quarters (120, 135, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:08:50.857] SAY: ToastGoats/(Paul Grumblestumpskin) (station announcement from the �Captain's Desk requests console) "Also, would any lizardmen like to join out fun new lavaland summer camp? You'll love the locals!" (Captain's Quarters (120, 134, 2))


That, as expected, was not well received by the crew, to the point Cargo forsake the authority of the Captain,

[2019-10-06 01:22:04.723] SAY: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) "Cargo, until the Captain revokes their declaration to gulag all non-humans, I will be refusing to do business with the rest of the station." (Cargo Office (77, 138, 2))


And true to their word, they did just that,

[2019-10-06 01:24:49.546] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "I must speak with you" (Cargo Bay (69, 152, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:24:51.330] SAY: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) "No." (Cargo Bay (71, 149, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:24:55.319] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Yes" (Cargo Bay (71, 151, 2))


Believe it or not, departments don't like it when you try to shoehorn yourself into places they do not wish for you to be. As such, the department responded with force (https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... attack.log),

[2019-10-06 01:25:02.733] ATTACK: Danny Delete-O/(John Masterson) has shoved CataChaos/(Thes Pian) (NEWHP: 100) (Cargo Bay (70, 151, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:03.668] ATTACK: Danny Delete-O/(John Masterson) has shoved CataChaos/(Thes Pian) (NEWHP: 100) (Cargo Bay (71, 151, 2))


And in due fashion, war were declared,

[2019-10-06 01:25:09.209] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Cargo Bay (Cargo Bay (76, 156, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:09.210] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot Danny Delete-O/(John Masterson) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (Cargo Bay (76, 156, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:09.734] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Storage Wing (Storage Wing (79, 156, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:09.735] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot Danny Delete-O/(John Masterson) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (Storage Wing (79, 156, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:15.373] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 88.9) (Storage Wing (81, 157, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:15.640] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Storage Wing (Storage Wing (81, 157, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:17.589] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Storage Wing (Storage Wing (81, 157, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:17.667] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (Storage Wing (81, 157, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:18.191] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Storage Wing (Storage Wing (83, 157, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:18.298] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (Storage Wing (83, 157, 2))


Worth noting is that at this moment, the aforementioned shoving was all the altercation had to offer, and was on the basis of one person. However, rather than take it directly as an attack by that sole individual, the HoP stated,

[2019-10-06 01:26:47.805] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "It seems cargo would like some summer camp fun. To take the stress away. All cargonians please report to the brig" (AI Upload Access (99, 147, 2))


The HoP further retaliated by using the AI to disable their entire department,

[2019-10-06 01:30:17.785] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "I have had ai turn your power off. Come back to acting proper and you can have it back" (Head of Personnel's Office (93, 132, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:30:32.644] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "stop your revolution" (Head of Personnel's Office (93, 132, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:30:37.151] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "All will be forgiven" (Head of Personnel's Office (93, 132, 2))


Which, as you can imagine,

[2019-10-06 01:30:38.018] SAY: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) "I have an alternative suggestion." (Cargo Bay (71, 146, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:30:45.488] SAY: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) "Go fuck yourself." (Cargo Bay (71, 146, 2))


Now, given this series of events, you could imagine hostilities would be in order. When the HoP found himself in Cargo,

[2019-10-06 01:35:38.277] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Hello" (Mining Station Port Wing (47, 27, 5))
[2019-10-06 01:35:38.016] ATTACK: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) has stunned CataChaos/(Thes Pian) (NEWHP: 100) (Mining Station Port Wing (46, 26, 5))
[2019-10-06 01:35:41.635] ATTACK: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) has stunned CataChaos/(Thes Pian) (NEWHP: 100) (Mining Station Port Wing (52, 27, 5))
[2019-10-06 01:35:42.833] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Listen" (Mining Station Port Wing (52, 27, 5))
[2019-10-06 01:35:45.960] ATTACK: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) has stunned CataChaos/(Thes Pian) (NEWHP: 100) (Mining Station Port Wing (51, 27, 5))
[2019-10-06 01:35:49.443] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Listen to me" (Mining Station Port Wing (52, 27, 5))
[2019-10-06 01:35:53.934] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "LISTEN TO ME" (Mining Station Port Wing (52, 27, 5))


To which the mime bailed them out of said situation. Well, third time had to be the charm, right?

[2019-10-06 01:36:42.380] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Cargo in armed revolt" (Mining Station Port Wing (32, 22, 5))
[2019-10-06 01:39:04.165] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "They made an attempt on my life HOS after I tried to negotiate three times in good faith" (Captain's Quarters (120, 135, 2))


Ever the victim, Cargo has apparently resorted to lethal force, despite the fact no damage had been done to him by such time,

[2019-10-06 01:36:04.838] ATTACK: MousseMousse/(Deafening Silence) has grabbed CataChaos/(Thes Pian) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Mining Station Port Wing (51, 27, 5))


So, in the best of manners, the HoP has throughly convinced himself that all of Cargo is to be considered lethally engaged with him. How does one respond to this? If you answered 'by getting security to assist him in containing Cargo'-- you're wrong,

[2019-10-06 01:47:24.058] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "bartender" (Bar (132, 128, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:47:58.767] SAY: DQN/(Jameson Quinn) "oh you want that soy latte for the bounty right?" (Bar (130, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:48:03.291] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "yes please" (Bar (130, 128, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:48:32.635] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has stunned WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 65) (Bar (133, 126, 2))


Instead of actually dealing with any issue, they decide to attempt to apprehend the one member of Cargo who had never actually engaged them up until this point, for no other reason than guilt by association. To this point, this Cargo Tech had not physically interacted with the HoP, as shown in the attack logs. Long story short, the Cargo Tech is apprehended and brought to the Captain's Lounge, where this exchange took place,

[2019-10-06 01:49:55.556] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "So" (Captain's Quarters (119, 132, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:49:59.737] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Where is your leader hiding?" (Captain's Quarters (119, 132, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:50:03.465] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "i am not a rev" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:50:09.749] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "i asked for an implant and security kicked me out" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:50:59.656] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "You guys shot at me" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:03.946] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "When I came to negotiate" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:04.099] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "i did not" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:08.677] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has punched WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) (NEWHP: 75.7) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:11.829] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Where is your leader!!" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:30.715] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has punched WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) (NEWHP: 67.6) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:32.157] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has punched WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) (NEWHP: 64.6) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:36.714] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "WHERE IS YOUR LEADER" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:47.415] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "even if i knew" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:49.286] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "i wouldnt tell you" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:08.783] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "tell me now" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:10.764] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Before you die" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))


And to tie this all up with a nice ribbon, it wasn't a threat, it was a promise:

[2019-10-06 01:52:24.434] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Goodbye emily" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:38.357] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the laser from Captain's Quarters (NEWHP: 64.6) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:38.358] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the laser (NEWHP: 64.6) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:53:43.067] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the laser from Captain's Quarters (NEWHP: -50) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:53:43.068] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the laser (NEWHP: -50) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:54:31.115] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at *no key*/(Emily Cook) with the laser from Captain's Quarters (NEWHP: -146) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:54:31.116] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot *no key*/(Emily Cook) with the laser (NEWHP: -146) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))


At which point the executed sent an ahelp about the matter at hand.

Issue:
Seeing as the duration of the server ban will be up before any headmin will rule on it, I will consider the issue here an attempt to elaborate on a mistake of law for note review. The claimant believes that their ban was not founded based on the conclusion that their killing of the cargo tech was not out of line given the circumstances of the situation barring them from requiring and association with those with whom the claimant had escalated with.

Rule(s):
The Escalation Policy (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Escalation), reading "If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time)[.]"
The Guide To Security (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_s ... Executions), reading "Executions are to be authorized by the Captain or acting Captain, if available. If neither are available, it is up to the HoS or acting HoS. If security are in agreement that the Captain is unfit for command, they may defer to the HoS. Whoever authorizes an execution will ultimately be held responsible by admins."

Application:
The crux of this ruling is twofold: the first being that the person who was executed in this case had not directly interacted with the claimant, but was rather guilty by association simply based on the department they happened to represent. At no time did the victim have a physical altercation with the claimant prior to their apprehension prior to interrogation. Nowhere in the escalation rules is there a felony escalation that authorizes the transfer of escalation from one or two individuals to an entire department, moreover the perceived constant threat that they try to use to rationalize their actions stems from the actions of the QM and another Cargo Tech, not the one whom they decided to execute, which I believe places them into the category of 'entire department' for the reasonableness clause of the escalation policy.

Secondly, it was not through any lack of ability for the HoP to contact the Captain and HoS, but by self admission they chose not to approach them given the lack of results they assumed would come to pass. In ahelping both the Captain and HoS, they both stated that they had not been contacted and did not authorize any executions, which stands in direct contravention of the stipulated guide as an 'are to be' rather than 'may be' clause. Further, given their lack of approval from the chain of command, their self-authorization puts them in full responsibility for the execution in my eyes, which is why I did not further engage with either the Captain or HoS.

Conclusions:
Given the various clauses needed to allow for a successful escalation defense not being present and the circumstances of ignoring proper procedure for executions. I affirm my findings as such, complete with the one day ban for murder and the note resultant.
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KNIGHT-COMMANDER OF THE ORDOM OF THE SHORT REPLY
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PrinceThespian
 
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:20 pm
Byond Username: CataChaos

Re: [<Dr. Aura>] <CataChaos> - Unfair ban

Postby PrinceThespian » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:52 am #518234

Ok so first off I apologize for putting the wrong round number. I went off what BYOND was telling me. https://gyazo.com/1509d21d6544d474cd813a421f229000

In the shoving altercation you missed the part where QM said [2019-10-06 01:24:59.571] SAY: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) "Get this fucker out of my cargo bay." (Cargo Bay (70, 153, 2)) which caused ALL cargonians who were standing around to rush me. The closest one shoved me. I then got out my gun set to DISABLER. And fired at them while backing up and fleeing. I immediately left at this point. The altercation was not by one person. Logs can only show so much sadly. They resorted to force first.

I showed up to resolve this situation. I didn't want any violence. They took it that path. Captain was the instigator of this problem. I did not trust their judgement. Meaning by chain of command the decisions a captain would make I took upon myself. All I wanted was the station to not have a civil war.

[2019-10-06 01:40:31.024] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Keeping this station together and whole means everything to me" (Captain's Quarters (118, 132, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:41:09.399] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "what will it take to bring you cargonia lads home/" (Bridge (104, 130, 2))
TCOMMS: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "But we need them to come back and act right. Centcomm will be pissed if we split in a civil war again" (language: Galactic Common) (Captain's Quarters (120, 135, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:39:52.989]


[2019-10-06 01:26:47.805] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "It seems cargo would like some summer camp fun. To take the stress away. All cargonians please report to the brig" (AI Upload Access (99, 147, 2)) This quote is clearly a joke, they obviously werent going to show up.

When negotiations didnt work of course I would go the route of the AI. I turned their power off so they couldn't buy weapons anymore. (Too late). I figured without power they couldnt do anything, and would just stop their revolution. I didnt have the Ai drain their air. Bolt them in. Electrify their doors. I just had the power go out for a little while.

So first off just to clarify the bit where I told them to listen to me happened on the mining base. Not cargo. So just because damage wasn't done to me doesn't mean they didn't initiate lethal force. They fired lethal weapons at me. They missed with their aim. I slipped past, and one of them stunned me and then the mime dragged me away. Instead of focusing me they chased down a security officer. Who also made it away. TCOMMS: Maskenary/(Reider Lelantos) [Security] (spans: ) "I WAS ALMOST SHOT TO DEATH" (language: Galactic Common) (Mining Shuttle (59, 162, 2)) [2019-10-06 01:37:03.489] I again went there in good faith to try to resolve everything peacefully to be shot at. Without words exchanged first.

What was my first word on lavaland? [2019-10-06 01:35:38.277] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Hello" (Mining Station Port Wing (47, 27, 5)). Moments before they whipped guns out without a word.

At this point I went back and asked centcomm what to do. They told me to try to strand cargo on lavaland. I told security to get on it. We were too slow and cargonians escaped.

Hey, way to miss every bit of time I asked security for their help. But that is besides the point. Of course I didnt go to security right away. I wanted it resolved PEACEFULLY.

TCOMMS: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "Cargonia in full revolt due to captains shortsided orders" (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (91, 132, 2)) (In security)
TCOMMS: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) "HOS to Hop office please." (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:31:49.075]
TCOMMS: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "Alright sec. centcomm has branded cargo traitors. They want us to strand them in lavaland" (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (111, 163, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:44:10.588]
TCOMMS: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "Destroy all shuttles" (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (94, 173, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:44:35.445]


Now please note after the centcomm communication I did shift from negotiator to more of an aggressor. Centcomm told me to strand them and they would bombard them or something like that (I cant find centcomm logs) So at this point I was treating them like traitors and revs. (I mean they literally fired weapons on me too) . AH but I STILL didnt authorize lethals on them. Nor would I use lethals.

TCOMMS: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) [Common] (spans: command_headset ) "Crew you are authorized to detain any and all cargonians you see" (language: Galactic Common) (Captain's Quarters (120, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:53:22.973]

You make the assertion that Emily cook was not apart of the revolution. These are messages in general and supply chat emily put in that I was aware of. One of which was a flat out lie, AGAINST ME.
TCOMMS: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) [Supply] (spans: ) "Cargonia" (language: Galactic Common) (Cargo Bay (72, 146, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:18:03.252]
TCOMMS: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) [Supply] (spans: ) "CARGONIA" (language: Galactic Common) (Cargo Bay (72, 154, 2))
TCOMMS: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) [Supply] (spans: ) "WE ARE UDNER ATTACK BY HOP" (language: Galactic Common) (Cargo Bay (72, 154, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:32.684]

But farther, you can see that she really was just as much a part of the revolution as any of the others.
[2019-10-06 01:15:33.738] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "for cargonia" (Cargo Bay (72, 144, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:10.605] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "caargonia" (Cargo Bay (72, 151, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:25:27.912] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "CARGONIA" (Cargo Bay (72, 154, 2))
Making up lies about me. [2019-10-06 01:27:25.996] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "HoP was trying to kidnap one of us" (Cargo Bay (71, 145, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:27:30.112] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "we need to stop him" (Cargo Bay (71, 145, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:27:49.443] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "and we are getting guns" (Cargo Bay (71, 145, 2))

[2019-10-06 01:35:44.107] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "we will get guns" (Cargo Bay (71, 154, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:35:45.965] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "and free them" (Cargo Bay (71, 154, 2)) ________ Proof they were actively participating in the revolution.

[2019-10-06 01:43:29.985] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "and to ensure cargonias interests" (Cargo Bay (69, 153, 2))

I could go on. But I think I have made my point.


So yes. I find a cargo tech sitting alone in a bar. Where they say this to the bartender: [2019-10-06 01:47:46.955] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "if we face tyranny, can cargo rely on you?" (Bar (130, 128, 2)) Anyway after a minute of deciding what I want to do I move in on the chance to find the cargo leader. As I said by this point I am treating them all like traitors. But I did not outright murder this person. I cuff em and take em to caps office. where the following exchange happens.

[2019-10-06 01:49:55.556] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "So" (Captain's Quarters (119, 132, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:49:59.737] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Where is your leader hiding?" (Captain's Quarters (119, 132, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:50:03.465] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "i am not a rev" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:50:09.749] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "i asked for an implant and security kicked me out" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:50:59.656] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "You guys shot at me" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:03.946] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "When I came to negotiate" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:04.099] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "i did not" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:08.677] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has punched WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) (NEWHP: 75.7) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:11.829] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Where is your leader!!" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:30.715] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has punched WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) (NEWHP: 67.6) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:32.157] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has punched WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) (NEWHP: 64.6) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:36.714] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "WHERE IS YOUR LEADER" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:47.415] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "even if i knew" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:51:49.286] SAY: WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) "i wouldnt tell you" (Captain's Quarters (118, 130, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:08.783] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "tell me now" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:10.764] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Before you die" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:24.434] SAY: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) "Goodbye emily" (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:38.357] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has fired at WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the laser from Captain's Quarters (NEWHP: 64.6) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))
[2019-10-06 01:52:38.358] ATTACK: CataChaos/(Thes Pian) has shot WuggyMcWuggy/(Emily Cook) with the laser (NEWHP: 64.6) (Captain's Quarters (118, 131, 2))


So yea I killed them. They werent exactly cooperating. In my eyes they were all traitors, and I just witnessed them asking the bartender if they stood with them. However Look at me telling them to "tell me now". That is when I put my gun in their mouth. It gives them a message in chat that tells them I do that. Something like Thes Pian puts a gun to your head or something. I did that twice. They still didnt reply. So I said goodbye and let the timer go off.

I stand by my feelings that I was acting captain as the old captain was incompetent and dangerous and in the case that we dont have a captain command passes to me. The head of personnel . I thank you for pointing out the rule nonetheless.

TLDR: The whole of cargonia was in revolt. As you can see from the logs I was right to fear all of them even from what I had seen personally. They were valid, they had guns. I had been fired upon. Furthermore, I made every effort to resolve things peacefully. The HOS and Cap made the mess together and I didnt trust their judgement. (It was mainly cap but HOS was complicit I believe) So I took the role of command up, which I was well within my right to do IC considering. So if you believe I needed caps permission for the "execution" well I was acting cap. Centcomm insinuated that it was fine to treat them as traitors with the "maroon them in lavaland and we will nuke them bit".

From my point of view everything I did was correct and in character. When we get down to the brass tacks this is all an in character problem. I broke no rules. I should not have been banned for it. You act like me trying to resolve it was neigh on breaking the rules. I didnt rush in there and immediately light the place up. I went in there to talk. From what I saw the station was going to shit, and I tried to step up and fix it. It isn't "shoe-horning where I dont belong". I was the gorydamn Hop, taking on command duties because the captain was incompetent. I was RPING. Not murder boning, not even being annoying. I have no idea why you are so condescending. Even IF I wasnt taking up the command role, HEAD OF PERSONNEL IS LITERALLY THE BOSS OF CARGO.



Sorry for my formatting issues and general all over the place ness. It has been a late night.

PostThis post was deleted by MortoSasye on Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:16 am.
Reason: Peanut posting: This is not the place for you to leave your opinion regarding a ban.

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Dr. Aura
 
Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:18 am
Byond Username: Dr. Aura

Re: [<Dr. Aura>] <CataChaos> - Unfair ban

Postby Dr. Aura » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:24 am #518240

Allow me a quick refutation as things see fit.

In the shoving altercation you missed the part where QM said [2019-10-06 01:24:59.571] SAY: Capslock3284/(Dances-On-Graves) "Get this fucker out of my cargo bay." (Cargo Bay (70, 153, 2))

My lack of direct quotation does not beget the framing of the quoted logs themselves:
Believe it or not, departments don't like it when you try to shoehorn yourself into places they do not wish for you to be.


From here on, if information presented is irrelevant to the points made in my review, they will be summarily ignored.

The altercation was not by one person. Logs can only show so much sadly.

If only one person engaged you, as shown in the attack logs, you were only engaged by that one person. Later on you are shown to be engaged by other members of the department, but never by the one you executed until you tried to apprehend them.

You make the assertion that Emily cook was not apart of the revolution.

This is not the case, she was a part of the activities of Cargo for the round, however she was not a member of the group of people that physically engaged you in any manner.

I stand by my feelings

I believe you have misunderstood the entire point of the appeals process. Feelings guide actions in the heat of the moment, but they do not have any bearing here. In appeals, you defend your feelings, but affirm them with through thoughts and actions. You felt you were the acting Captain to allow yourself some semblance of ground to stand on in your actions, but you didn't think you were acting Captain because you didn't even make an attempt to seek them out based on what you felt about their prior performance in the shift. You felt like you were in fear despite the fact that the extent of what they did to you amounted to literally zero harm and you reinforced this by going off into their department on your own then using their expected response as a means to justify retaliation when you could have left well enough alone. You felt all that, but this isn't about how you felt, this is about what I thought and what the headmins will think of how what we thought guided our actions.

I broke no rules.

Actually, killing a non-antag as a non-antag is a rule, Rule 1 precedent to be precise, which is what I banned you for in the first place. In the same breath you managed to admit you did this and then deny it again. Unfortunately, ignorance is not an affirmative defense.
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PrinceThespian
 
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:20 pm
Byond Username: CataChaos

Re: [<Dr. Aura>] <CataChaos> - Unfair ban

Postby PrinceThespian » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:47 am #518243

Funny, you told me Emily "was not apart of the revolution" in our one on one admin chat in game and it was even in the official ban reason. But that was after you denied the revolution even existed, so I am not surprised you cant keep everything straight.

Ok, you are blowing off everything I said. You are also extremely condescending. Like I said in my original post, feels like you have a grudge against me. I FEEL like I have made my point and will wait for a head admin to weigh in. All the facts are out there.

Edit: Deleted the response to deleted

PostThis post was deleted by MortoSasye on Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:17 am.
Reason: response to deleted

PostThis post was deleted by MortoSasye on Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:18 am.
Reason: response to deleted

PostThis post was deleted by MortoSasye on Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:17 am.
Reason: response to deleted

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PrinceThespian
 
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:20 pm
Byond Username: CataChaos

Re: [<Dr. Aura>] <CataChaos> - Unfair ban

Postby PrinceThespian » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:29 pm #518418

I have just gotten a chance to hop on the server for the first time since the ban. Turns out they also banned me for a week from command roles. This appeal is also contesting that now too.

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MortoSasye
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:05 pm
Byond Username: MortoSasye

Re: [<Dr. Aura>] <CataChaos> - Unfair ban

Postby MortoSasye » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:30 pm #519233

Resolving this.
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