[DISCORD] Nervere#0001

[Nervere]

Discord username: Nervere#0001
Banning admin: MortoSasye
Ban reason: https://i.imgur.com/EQGTqwf.png
Conversation beforehand before wordlessly banned: https://tgstation13.download/dip/discordimageproxy.php/attachments/ ... hM2O5e.png
Time ban was placed: Just now.
Your side of the story: Wilchen pinged me asking if Joe Berry should "be invited", presumably to a Discord server we both share.
I decline, and say that Joe Berry is a creep, and I wouldn't like him to be in that server. Joe Berry tells me to fuck off, I call him a creep again.
Oranges begins to antagonize me (as per usual), and attempts to bait me with stupid phrases like, "watch your language, Nervere." I take the bait at one point against my better judgement and tell oranges to fuck off.
Whatever, I move on. Then, MortoSasye pings me and says that I need to stop "harassing" Joe Berry. I find this very funny, and I make this clear. I laugh at the assertion that what I did was at all harassing, because it definitely wasn't.
Was it rude for me to openly call Whoneedspacee a creep? Sure it was, and that wasn't nice of me, but it's not harassment. I find it very difficult to be kind to someone who tried to non-consensually ERP with people I care about.

Before I begin to write in my defense, I'd like to say this, because it's something I've never encountered before until now, and I feel bad because I probably did this a fuck ton when I was an admin:
I want this appeal to be an actual conversation between me and the banning admin. Given the gap in conversation in the verification channel and my ban, it's safe to assume that Morto had a behind-closed-doors discussion about me before she applied the ban, rather than discussing her concerns with me before applying the ban.
Further, it's rather shitty that I wasn't given ample opportunity to defend my case before the ban was applied.
To this you might reply: "But Morto publicly accused you of harassing someone, and you responded poorly!"
But this doesn't make much sense. No one responds positively to public accusations, especially when they're coming from a head admin!
Plus, before I could argue my case, I was kicked by oranges. When I re-joined the server and was locked in the verification room, I attempted to continue the case to defend myself.
Instead of a conversation with Morto where I would have an opportunity to defend my actions, I was instead ignored, and eventually banned. Hell, Morto said right off the bat she didn't want to talk to me.

So, my question is this: Why are players afforded the right to privately defend themselves in a ticket in-game, but when it comes to Discord, they're publicly accused, kicked when making their case, and then banned?
It seems very silly, and is probably why there's so many poorly thought out bans like the one I received: it's not possible to make an educated decision on a ban when you do not have a proper conversation with the accused.

So, with that in mind, let's address the different parts of MortoSasye's ban reason.

First part, being a dick:
I was probably being a dick to Morto in the moment she called what I did "harassment", but no further.
What happened after she accused me of harassing someone was that I called her an overzealous Discord moderator, and mockingly wrote, "clean-up in aisle 4".
Is this worthy of a ban? No, and while this isn't the entire ban reason, it should be crossed off.
Why? When a head admin openly accuses you of breaking a rule, there's a lot of weight and social pressure behind that accusation. I instinctively responded aggressively to Morto's assertion, because in my mind, a strong accusation should be met with an equally strong response. I maintain that what I did was not harassment, and I elaborate on this below. I could have been nicer in my response to Morto's accusation, but responding constructively to public accusations is not my strong suit, and frankly I don't think anyone would do well in that scenario.

Second part, harassment:
I've already given my refutation for what the "harassment" with Joe Berry was, let's move on to the other thing MortoSasye likes to bring up: I once had a petty conflict with Aethernaut/John Gobbel on the Discord server.
I believe he leaked something from a server we shared, because some shit was posted on Singulo the day after he left the server. For this reason, I called him a dog, and reacted to several of his posts in #discussion-general with a dog emoji.
While this was definitely immature of me, it's not representative of my normal behavior. When wubli saw my conflict with him, she called me out in #headmin-bus and I ended the conflict there, because it was a wake-up call for me.
I was in the wrong in this scenario, I had a rough week and was unfairly taking it out on John. Wubli called me out, I corrected my behavior, and moved on.
It makes no sense for this to be cited as a reason under "harassment" when it was resolved a month or two ago and Morto hadn't even taken part in resolving the situation.

Third part, spam:
This is the one where I was definitely in the wrong. I spammed at some point on the server, I believe two or three weeks ago, and was kicked. That's fair, I accepted my punishment for that and we all moved on.
However, let's not miss the elephant in the room: In the /tg/ Discord, spam is extraordinarily common. The admin chats are rather tame, but #discussion-general and #shitposts-general are the wild wild west.
Since I now only ever speak in #discussion-general, I think that information is pretty relevant.
Now, I get it: other people breaking the rules doesn't mean it's fine to do it yourself. That's true, but there's two things to consider here:
Firstly, inaction is a form of precedent. When no one is punished for spam, people - and other admins - will disregard that rule.
Half the time when I join #discussion-general, it's people spamming Discord invite embeds by typing "discord.gg/servername", and it never gets punished. Hell, that was the reason I was kicked, and it still seems the rules are selectively enforced.

Secondly, it's kind of hard to follow that rule when you see the head admin herself is breaking this rule!
It's not an uncommon sight to see Morto pinging people many times in a row, for little to no discernible reason.
I find it hard to criticize Morto for this, since it's the culture of the Discord server, and I participate in it myself.
But it begs the question: what is the limit on spam? Why don't the headmins lead by example on rules they choose to "enforce?"
Here's a relatively minor example from this morning. It's not much, but it's not like I can go on the Discord server to find more examples, anyway:




Why you think you should be unbanned: I kind of find it hard to write in this section, because I think I pretty thoroughly explained above why I feel this ban isn't fair.
To recap: I was rude to MortoSasye, but I was publicly accused by a head admin and it's not a good time when you're cornered publicly and forced to defend yourself like that. There's a reason admin tickets aren't public!
What I said about Joe Berry was not harassment, and not out of the blue. I was asked a question, gave my response, and tried to move on, but was unfortunately baited by oranges and publicly attacked by Morto.

I'm not exactly the best man to be talking about keeping your grievances private, but when someone is going to be forced to defend their actions, it should NOT be public where the peanut gallery adds fuel to the flames.
Morto, you yourself should know how this feels. Before I banned Vespa for harassing you, he would openly stir up the Discord server against you about your ban appeals and notes, calling you a "banbot" and a shitty admin.
Being one person against a crowd is an awfully powerless feeling, and I hope you can see why that's relevant here.

Thirdly, it's true I was kicked in the past for spam, but the merits of this are dubious at best, given the wildly inconsistent enforcement of the rule, and the spammy culture of the Discord server itself.

I really don't know what else to say.
Ask me questions if you have them, and I'll do my best to give an honest response.

[Nervere]

I'd like to add something else to this, for further context to what lead up to the ban.
Oranges was really pissing me off. I hate to say that, because I know he loves it, but it's true.
He gets off on trying to antagonize me, and sometimes I take the bait.
Oranges was simultaneously attacking me and trying to hold his Discord moderation powers over my head.

The transition between Oranges antagonizing me and Morto publicly accusing me of harassment was very short, about a minute I'd say.
I was still angry, on my toes, and feeling rather aggressive. This definitely factored in to how I acted.
If you think I'm just being a salty bitch, here's him calling me a cunt on his imageboard:

Spoiler:

I don't think it's unreasonable of me to be very mad that someone who openly expresses their hatred of me is also trying to use their Discord powers against me.

[MortoSasye]

The reason why you got banned wasn’t because of Space, but me realizing you’re not going to change no matter how much people ask you to stop being a dick in general and not taking me seriously when asked to stop.

I will explain in detail every point and reason that lead to me taking said decision, and the reason why I, at least at this very moment, don’t want to lift this ban.

Rule 1: There are multiple instances where you have broken this, with no signs of you stopping to do so.

Let’s start first with the glowing showcase of it: Your constant attacks against Hulkamania and one of our community members as a head admin, as well as constant mockery of MSO.

With Hulk you started attacking them when the elections came even after being told you were taking it too far by multiple admins, myself included, both publicly and in private. You never apologized for this behavior, and you still jump at the chance to start attacking him when presented, blaming his ''Metafriends'' of defending him not taking well your ''critics''.

The following are not critics, but constant attacks against someone and getting people to dislike them, far from just saying they’re not fit for being headmin and that another choice may have been better:















And the shining gem above all, getting a whole community against one person:



This is a behavior for which you never apologized, even when confronted has said previously multiple times. If you can’t see why this crosses the line from a critique then I don’t know what to tell you.

Let’s proceed now with John Gobbel, someone you harassed as a head admin and to who you also never apologized at least to my knowledge:







MSO has also been repeatedly targeted by you, and is the most recent example of it:







All of the above are examples of the behavior you showcase time and time again when you decide someone has done you wrong, passing them as inoffensive jokes or blaming how you felt that day or any other excuse you can grasp instead of just admitting you did wrong and changing your behavior for the better.

Spam: This is a minor issue, but you’re looking at it the wrong way. When I quoted spam and failure to stop after each warning, I meant to highlight even further the fact you refuse to take warnings seriously each time you get confronted by any of us (mainly me since I’m the headmin that is taking care of moderating discord).





This is the conversation where I finally lost hope you would change for the better:





You don’t take what you do seriously, and I don’t believe you ever will, which is a shame because you were someone I admired and the reason why I became an admin.

[oranges]

Also to clarify, I kicked you for being a dick to me and morto after I had reported the incident.

Administrators do not have to be subject to abuse for enforcing the rules.

I was just trying to get you to lay off someone who has literally done the time for the crime.

[Snuffleupagus]

Spoiler:

The reason why you got banned wasn’t because of Space, but me realizing you’re not going to change no matter how much people ask you to stop being a dick in general and not taking me seriously when asked to stop.

I will explain in detail every point and reason that lead to me taking said decision, and the reason why I, at least at this very moment, don’t want to lift this ban.

Rule 1: There are multiple instances where you have broken this, with no signs of you stopping to do so.

Let’s start first with the glowing showcase of it: Your constant attacks against Hulkamania and one of our community members as a head admin, as well as constant mockery of MSO.

With Hulk you started attacking them when the elections came even after being told you were taking it too far by multiple admins, myself included, both publicly and in private. You never apologized for this behavior, and you still jump at the chance to start attacking him when presented, blaming his ''Metafriends'' of defending him not taking well your ''critics''.

The following are not critics, but constant attacks against someone and getting people to dislike them, far from just saying they’re not fit for being headmin and that another choice may have been better:















And the shining gem above all, getting a whole community against one person:



This is a behavior for which you never apologized, even when confronted has said previously multiple times. If you can’t see why this crosses the line from a critique then I don’t know what to tell you.

Let’s proceed now with John Gobbel, someone you harassed as a head admin and to who you also never apologized at least to my knowledge:







MSO has also been repeatedly targeted by you, and is the most recent example of it:







All of the above are examples of the behavior you showcase time and time again when you decide someone has done you wrong, passing them as inoffensive jokes or blaming how you felt that day or any other excuse you can grasp instead of just admitting you did wrong and changing your behavior for the better.

Spam: This is a minor issue, but you’re looking at it the wrong way. When I quoted spam and failure to stop after each warning, I meant to highlight even further the fact you refuse to take warnings seriously each time you get confronted by any of us (mainly me since I’m the headmin that is taking care of moderating discord).





This is the conversation where I finally lost hope you would change for the better:





You don’t take what you do seriously, and I don’t believe you ever will, which is a shame because you were someone I admired and the reason why I became an admin.

I mean I'm not sure whether or not this post is going to get baleeted or not. I feel like this directly relates to your changing of Rule #1. You're using evidence from months ago against Nervere to essentially enforce a change to a rule that was done retroactively by yourself and is still being decided on by the player base.

Further I can't help but feel there might be some additional bias as this is the individual in question who played an integral role in challenging the change to Rule 1 itself.

Which brings to question in regards to you calling this harassment, it feels like the line itself is vague if you can use someones history basically beginning from wherever you feel it's applicable. Especially on a discord server with so many shitposters.

[oranges]

The discord rules have been in effect since nervere's reign, he even made those rules and posted them

[Snuffleupagus]

The discord rules have been in effect since nervere's reign, he even made those rules and posted them

My point remains. Discord rules or not and doesn't change whether game policy has an effect on Discord itself. Define harassment. Currently it seems subjective to me and you can go back as far as you want into someones chat history and utilize it as evidence to support a ban. Are you holding everyone to this same standard? Plus there has to be some minute probability that some animus is held against nervere himself that he was extremely vocal in a thread that has to do with just this topic: Harassment as it applies to rule #1.

[oranges]

I think, this is pretty clear

1: Don’t be a dick. This Discord server is meant to be open and friendly, don’t make it into an unenjoyable environment.

and has been in place since august this year

[Snuffleupagus]

I think, this is pretty clear

1: Don’t be a dick. This Discord server is meant to be open and friendly, don’t make it into an unenjoyable environment.

and has been in place since august this year

And yet you're citing evidence prior to the rule being in place? First. I see a handful of cherry picked examples of him mentioning Hulk in context. Admins are public figures. Is this communist China? Are people not allowed to make jest of authority figures? Because that's what it looks like to me. Subjective bits of broader conversations that seem contextual to the topic. You're attempting to false-cause the harassment policy on a community that revolves around shitposting and largely anti-authoritarian temperance.

I mean one of the images is him disclosing who he voted for in the headmin election. Wasn't even a dig at anyone in particular. That's how far reaching this is.

Edit: I guess I'm being censored because A) several of the images are from the spring. Which invalidates your reasoning for deleting my posts. B) It's plain that there's some sort of personal bias in play here. I'm the last person who wants to stand up for Nervere but there's some blatant buggery going on with this ruling.

[Karp]

Edit: I guess I'm being censored because A) several of the images are from the spring. Which invalidates your reasoning for deleting my posts. B) It's plain that there's some sort of personal bias in play here. I'm the last person who wants to stand up for Nervere but there's some blatant buggery going on with this ruling.

Sorry that's on me being a dentie who missed those logs, I was going to edit your original post to be more peanut compliant. I thought I saw all of the images as post august ones. I'll undelete and edit the ones that exist to be more peanut complaint. Please avoid long image comment chains by spoilering those chains.

This is a general reminder to everyone. Avoid personal attacks, refer to peanut policy if you're not sure what's an appropriate post, and message the mods/headmins if you're confused on if your post is appropriate.

*EDIT*:Your earlier posts partially lean on personal attacks and "My opinion is..." and "I feel like..." pretty heavily. I'm leaving your posts up due to you raising some valid points as to the new discord rules technically not being fully in effect but the server rule 1 changes don't affect discord rule 1. Any posts below this comment that lean heavily into personal attacks and/or are heavily built to be opinion pieces will be edited or deleted. For references on our rule enforcement, Server Rules =/= Forum Rules =/= Discord Rules. To also answer your question on how rule 1 might work, it still roughly functions in the same capacity across the discord, game, and forum rules.

[Snuffleupagus]

Edit: I guess I'm being censored because A) several of the images are from the spring. Which invalidates your reasoning for deleting my posts. B) It's plain that there's some sort of personal bias in play here. I'm the last person who wants to stand up for Nervere but there's some blatant buggery going on with this ruling.

Sorry that's on me being a dentie who missed those logs, I was going to edit your original post to be more peanut compliant. I thought I saw all of the images as post august ones. I'll undelete and edit the ones that exist to be more peanut complaint. Please avoid long image comment chains by spoilering those chains.

This is a general reminder to everyone. Avoid personal attacks, refer to peanut policy if you're not sure what's an appropriate post, and message the mods/headmins if you're confused on if your post is appropriate.

By all means hold me to task. You did earlier when I posted and taunted nervere. I fully understand where you're coming for there. I feel I've raised some valid concerns here that need to be answered.

I can assure you if I had proper access to the Discord I could LIKEWISE search numerous peoples history to see examples of them "mentioning." specific leaders in this community and not exactly saying anything "appropriate." after the fact. Again. This is subjective and if I recall correctly the Harassment rule on Discord itself was enacted to A) Prevent people from pinging people repeatedly and B) DMing them continuously. Not voicing OPINIONS about the individual.

Any logical person isn't going to formulate an opinion against someone based on an off colored, purely satirical comment. Which is the crux of the argument that Moto has made in regards to upholding this ban. Further my point stands. You're in a leadership role. You put a target on yourself anytime you do that. This much is as true in real life if not much more on the internet.

[Nervere]

The reason why you got banned wasn’t because of Space

Yes, it was. At the heart of it, this was about what you accused me of doing to him. You can retroactively pull out all of this other stuff, but this is the inciting incident.

You included a lot of images in your post, so I'll address each image individually.
The format is: (number) - (my response), with the corresponding image spoilered below.

1 - This should have been overwhelmingly obvious where I said "I am God", but this post is facetious. What are you citing this to be? Harassment?
I know one of the core points of your post is that you think I too often play things off as a joke, but really? This is grasping at straws. No one was offended by this.

Spoiler:

2 - This is a four month old post, and is a running gag in adminbus whenever someone is about to get deadminned. Again, no reasonable person would feel offended or even bothered by this.

Spoiler:

3 - What? Am I not allowed to say who I voted for?

Spoiler:

4 - Again, what is this supposed to be? Your images are presented without comment, so I am left guessing what you meant.
This is literally just me, in the most inoffensive way possible, campaigning against Hulkamania.
Earlier in your post, Morto, you said my posts are:

far from just saying they’re not fit for being headmin and that another choice may have been better

Is this really the case? Is telling people to put a candidate I dislike at the bottom of their vote anything but a peaceful way to show dislike for a headmin candidate?
I do not see the point in political campaigning, or elections at all, if something as harmless as this is deemed as harassing.

Spoiler:

5 - I don't know what the context of this is, but you are still failing to demonstrate how any of this is harassment.

Spoiler:

6 - I do not have the time or the willpower to re-watch 80 minutes of a community meeting to find when exactly I said, "I'm going to kill Hulk, bye bye bye bye!", but I am certain this was said non-seriously.
The whole "bye bye! bye bye!" thing is a reference to SuicidalPickles' schtick, you know this. This isn't harassment, either.

Spoiler:

7 - This is just campaigning. This is not a personal attack. This is not ad-hom or insults. It is objective, data-based arguments on why I do not believe Hulkamania would be a good headmin. What is wrong with this?

Spoiler:

8 - What you are leaving out of this image - and every other post you make about Hulkamania, is that I did step back from my comments towards Hulkamania after speaking with people.
Both publicly in the /tg/ Discord, and in admin channels! This really fucking sucks though, because I'm not at liberty to prove any of this, since I'm banned from the server and no longer in adminbus.
If you'll indulge me, though, I eventually realized I was being a dick in Hulkamania's thread, and stopped talking about him thereafter. Only after Hulkamania removed Elyina's funny Discord role would I criticize Hulkamania again.

Spoiler:

9 - I won't lie that riding off the tail-end of an @everyone in a private discord to campaign against someone is scummy. I regret this and I accept it as a valid point against the way I've criticized Hulkamania.
However, as I've demonstrated above, I don't think your other screenshots have very much substance. I get you disagree with my position on Hulkamania, but none of that is harassment.

Spoiler:

10, 11, 12 - I am genuinely confused if you read my post or not, but I addressed this quite clearly. It was a conflict where I was in the wrong. I stopped when Wubli spoke with me about it, and I regret my actions.
If I were a dumb fuck who didn't learn anything from a fellow headmin calling me out, I would've kept being a dick to John. Frankly - I WAS harassing John, and I'm grateful that Wubli put me back on the right path.

Spoiler:

13, 14, 15 - Does MSO even give a shit about this? If he does, he never told me. In fact, literally no one has brought this up until you have, just now, in this post.
No offense, this honestly feels like you're just tacking stuff on. If MSO gave a fuck, he would have said something. I posted these very memes (albeit not verbatim) in #admin-chatter in the past and people found it humorous.

Spoiler:

16, 17 - This is valid. I was kicked for this in the past, and it was a valid punishment.
However, again, I encourage you to read the part of my post that addressed this.
I reiterate that,your kick sent a message, and I accept that punishment as fine. I certainly didn't do it again afterwards.

Spoiler:

18, 19 - I'm really not trying to sound like a dick in saying this, but I feel like my post where I addressed this specifically was completely disregarded by you.
So I'm going to quote it as citation.

I'd like to add something else to this, for further context to what lead up to the ban.
Oranges was really pissing me off. I hate to say that, because I know he loves it, but it's true.
He gets off on trying to antagonize me, and sometimes I take the bait.
Oranges was simultaneously attacking me and trying to hold his Discord moderation powers over my head.

The transition between Oranges antagonizing me and Morto publicly accusing me of harassment was very short, about a minute I'd say.
I was still angry, on my toes, and feeling rather aggressive. This definitely factored in to how I acted.
If you think I'm just being a salty bitch, here's him calling me a cunt on his imageboard:

Spoiler:

I don't think it's unreasonable of me to be very mad that someone who openly expresses their hatred of me is also trying to use their Discord powers against me.

I don't do very well under pressure, Morto. Especially in public when both you and oranges are railing on me for something. I shouldn't have resorted to mocking you, but in situations like these, the pressure is on.
It's hard to remain civil and calm when I am being both attacked by someone who openly talks about how they fucking hate my guts, AND being accused of breaking a rule by a headmin, in front of everyone.
Do you not see why that's stressful as hell? Do you not see why I cracked and resorted to being rude in that situation? It IS my fault for being rude, at the end of the day, but the situational factors are what guided me to that position and -I hope you can empathize - is sort of why I kind of freaked out.

Spoiler:

You don’t take what you do seriously, and I don’t believe you ever will

That's harsh and untrue. I've made my mistakes, Morto, but every time, I try to address them. I don't let this stuff fester. I go out and try to get it resolved, otherwise it's on the back of my mind and is bugging me.
So it's kind of weird that you bring up all this past stuff - sometimes from months before - as evidence that I am a bad person.
I am more than willing to admit - and already have admitted in the past! - that the way I acted towards the end of my second headmin term was awful. I was a dickhead to a lot of people and I'm still trying to make amends for it.
But to bring all of this up in my appeal, after I've done my best to move past it, just feels wrong. Most of these screenshots are really tame, shitposts at best, and for the stuff where I genuinely was in the wrong, I own up to it.

So when you say in this thread, that I, "don't take myself seriously", and that I am a coward who doesn't own up to his mistakes, it's offensive, misleading, and completely untrue.

[PKPenguin321]

Before I get death threats for moderating in a controversial thread, please review the peanut policy:

Players can post in a thread regarding something they weren't involved in, IF IT IS TO BRING UP/POINT TO/HIGHLIGHT a rule, precedent, or piece of evidence that was missed that is relevant to the situation.

This does NOT include:
"This happened to me once and I didn't get banned for it" or the reverse "This happened to me once and I got banned for it."
"My opinion is…" or "I feel like…"

(Posting this as a moderator, not a game admin)

[MortoSasye]

I have decided to unban Nervere and give him one more chance after a conversation that took place between him and me.