[Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

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Isy232
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[Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by Isy232 » #524403

BYOND account: Isy232

Character name: Hydrogen III

Ban type: Chemistry Ban

Ban length: Week

Ban reason:
Banned from Roles: Chief Medical Officer, Medical Doctor, Chemist for 1 week - As a non antagonistic chemist set up a "grenades r us" store infront of the medical bay which resulted in someone picking up one of the high yield methamphetamine grenades and immediately priming it which caused the death and gibbing of themselves and four other people. Leaving out high yield explosives and then acting surprised when people blow them up only to be held responsible is simply common sense.

Time ban was placed: 2019-11-17 01:46:03 | Sybil | Zero the big boy

Round ID in which ban was placed: Not present in ban reason.



Your side of the story:
On this round I was playing chemist, I used plumbing to make a meth factory then decided why not mass produce 200u methnades and open a little store.
As you can guess from this dumb of an idea, someone (who I assume was a traitor) took a grenade, triggered it and then threw it back at the store, causing a chain reacion detonating all 5 methnades, 1000u of meth, gibbing myself and I believe 3 others.

Before I did this I believed that assisting antags would not make you OOC responsible for their actions. My precedent for this belief was in a previous round where I was captain, I accepted a bribe of an uplink full of TC for the traitors promise that their objectives were not harmful and my lasergun. For doing this I was never punished OOC.

There is also no clear ruling against this on https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
At the time I though I was following the rules and my actions were valid OOC. What I was told was that assisting antags was valid, such as giving them guns, but giving them explosives was not because they can cause more damage and permanently remove people from the round is not valid.

Now, thinking critically about this I can see why this ruling is out there, so people don't just mass produce bombs every round and hand them out to antags, causing the station to be nuked almost every round. However its not exactly fair to judge things on hindsight.

But, put yourself in my position, with the previous incident as captain for precedent, having just finished making a meth factory with plumbing and not having planned what to do with it all as well as having read the rules page on the wiki fairly thoroughly I thought that making a store to sell explosives may have gotten me in trouble IC, making me valid depending on how my goods were used, but I thought what I was doing was not against the rules OOC. At the time, I thought what I was doing was something creative and interesting, possibly causing conflict but nothing against the rules OOC.

What I am appealing here is the fact that I was banned from chemistry over this, for a few reasons.

1: I was attempting to follow the rules, I thought what I was doing was not against the rules at this time.
2: This incident is kind of in a bit more of a grey area in the rules, there is no clear rule stating "Do not give out explosives randomly to crew members". Common sense would have me thing that doing so was a bad idea, possibly making you valid depending on how those explosives are used, but not that you are responsible OOC for an antagonists actions with them.
3: While selling explosives to possible traitors may make you think I am completely retarded, I think that the fact that I can make a meth factory shows otherwise. I'm not stupid enough to pull this shit again after I've been warned not to do so with a note on my account so I don't see why a 1 week job ban from chemistry is necessary.
4: I didn't come out of this incident unscathed, I was also gibbed in the explosion, permanently removing me from the round.

How about a compromise, remove the chemban but if I do this again, you triple the punishment.

Also, this ban also banned me from medical doctor, I don't see how that has anything to do with chemistry.
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by deedubya » #524408

Isy232 wrote:Also, this ban also banned me from medical doctor, I don't see how that has anything to do with chemistry.
Medical Doctors have access to the "old" chem lab, aka the Apothecary. The old chem lab is still more than capable of producing meth/potwater/black powder. The reason you were also banned from Medical Doctor is likely to prevent access to that area, consistent with a Chemist ban for the reasons given.
Isy232
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by Isy232 » #524414

deedubya wrote:
Isy232 wrote:Also, this ban also banned me from medical doctor, I don't see how that has anything to do with chemistry.
Medical Doctors have access to the "old" chem lab, aka the Apothecary. The old chem lab is still more than capable of producing meth/potwater/black powder. The reason you were also banned from Medical Doctor is likely to prevent access to that area, consistent with a Chemist ban for the reasons given.
Ah, so that was changed, never mind then.
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zero the big boy
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by zero the big boy » #524420

Yes and hello and I appreciate your appeal but i'd like to comment on some of the things here:
Isy232 wrote:There is also no clear ruling against this on https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules.
I'd like to say this excuse can in some cases be valid but this is infact a roleplaying game and there's a whole handful of very specific cases of things that aren't specifically stated in the rules but will still breath you a ban.
I.E. there's nothing in the rules that says you can't ask a headrev to convert you but you'll still catch a ban for doing it, another one that comes to mind is antag rolling, entirely unstated in the rules apart from headmin rulings but that's more catered towards niche things rather than the front page of do's and don'ts.
Take a moment and think to yourself. Do you think selling explosives is for any case reasonable other than to selfantag? Who's going to use them? An assistant? No because that assistant will breathe in a fat ban for even glancing at an explosive the wrong way. The only person you'd be selling two hundred unit methamphetamine explosives to is antagonists. A Captain that orders someone be wrongfully executed is going to be the one held accountable for it even if the HoS is the one that shoots him in the head.
Isy232 wrote:What I was told was that assisting antags was valid, such as giving them guns
There's a very fine line between assisting antagonists because it's the fun thing to do and or assisting antagonists because you want them to do malicious things.
Giving an antagonist a gun because they cut you a deal with their full uplink and have an objective for it is different than giving an antagonist a gun and all access because they walked up to you and said "yo bb girl i wanna murderbone gimmie a gun" and you just coughing it up, that at a core is essentially assisting in the murder, same goes for knowingly giving antagonists explosives "just because". Hiding the fact you knowingly are handing out explosives behind a shop doesn't automatically not make it your fault when they use said explosives to kill six people in the medical bay.
Isy232 wrote:1: I was attempting to follow the rules, I thought what I was doing was not against the rules at this time.
While I don't believe what you were attempting to do was malicious there's a point where common sense has to take over and you have to realize you're handing out explosives to a crew with the combined brain power of a brick in a hand bag isn't the brightest idea.
Isy232 wrote:2: This incident is kind of in a bit more of a grey area in the rules, there is no clear rule stating "Do not give out explosives randomly to crew members". Common sense would have me thing that doing so was a bad idea, possibly making you valid depending on how those explosives are used, but not that you are responsible OOC for an antagonists actions with them.
I'm going to be really quite honest with you. If you think it's a bad idea it probably is. If you think the bad idea's going to get someone killed either by your and or another person's hands it's probably going to get you bwoinked.
Isy232 wrote:3: While selling explosives to possible traitors may make you think I am completely retarded, I think that the fact that I can make a meth factory shows otherwise. I'm not stupid enough to pull this shit again after I've been warned not to do so with a note on my account so I don't see why a 1 week job ban from chemistry is necessary.
a. With seven hundred hours on your account I don't doubt your incompetency at all but I also doubt with seven hundred hours it'd be out of the ball park for you to realize handing out explosives when the only people that can use said explosives is antagonists is a bad idea.
b. You have a note on your account from when you killed thirty nine people in a clown car with a meth bomb because you "didn't think it would harm them". You know the power of meth bombs and you KNOW this should've been a very bad idea from the start.
Isy232 wrote:4: I didn't come out of this incident unscathed, I was also gibbed in the explosion, permanently removing me from the round.
A scientist which TTVs the brig and gibs seven security officers and then kills themselves as a result of it is still getting banned for it.
Isy232 wrote:Also, this ban also banned me from medical doctor, I don't see how that has anything to do with chemistry.
The apothecary is a thing that also exists.
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capn_monkeypaw
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by capn_monkeypaw » #524424

Isy232 wrote: there is no clear rule stating "Do not give out explosives randomly to crew members"
Isy232 wrote: But, put yourself in my position, with the previous incident as captain for precedent, having just finished making a meth factory with plumbing and not having planned what to do with it all as well as having read the rules page on the wiki fairly thoroughly I thought that making a store to sell explosives may have gotten me in trouble IC, making me valid depending on how my goods were used, but I thought what I was doing was not against the rules OOC. At the time, I thought what I was doing was something creative and interesting, possibly causing conflict but nothing against the rules OOC.
How about instead we use your appeal previous to this one as precedent?
Cedarbridge wrote: A xeno egg is a potential spawner in the same way that a TTV bomb is a potential explosion.
Hulkamania wrote: Relying on another player to police themselves on egg laying is not how it works. When you give the AI an utterly irresponsible law, you are the one who suffers the consequences of their actions. When you leave a TTV laying around and someone uses it to blow things up, you are equally to blame in this exchange for having left such a dangerous thing out. When you give someone the ability to spawn xenomorph eggs, it then becomes your fault that they used said power in the first place.
During the course of that discussion, multiple admins made it clear that the responsibility for deaths caused by explosives left lying around falls on the person who manufactured the explosive device in the first place.

Every time you get bwoinked it's because you're injecting mayhem into a round without giving a shit about the consequences.

How are you still making these arguments with a straight face?
Isy232
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by Isy232 » #524450

Zero the big boy, common sense isn't common.
I knew it was a bad idea, likely to leave me dead IC, but I decided why the fuck not. For example people are allowed to read WGW, even though they are very likely to end up dead.

Also the incident with 39 people in the clown car was a bit different. I thought those in the car might be okay because there sprites were not visible so we were in a bit of a pocket dimension. Therefore an explosion destroying the clown car wouldn't hit us with full force. We were also all about to be spaced, the clown car was in departures. Additionally someone in the car asked me if I had a grenade and then told me to use it. So I did and it gibbed all 39 people, about half of the brains were recoverable.

I also do know methnades are very strong, I didn't know that they would detonate each other if they are in the explosion radius of each other.

All your arguments are made from hindsight. Sure if you were in that situation you would have thought differently than I did because you know the rules perfectly, I'm not debating that I didn't do something bad, I'm saying that my intention was not to do something bad therefore I wont do it again.

I know this argument sounds stupid, I shitsec'd the captain to death but I wont do it again!

But that's a bit different, an obvious violation of clearly stated rules.
But what I did is in a bit of a grey area that I would have no way of knowing was bad unless......




capn_monkeypaw wrote:
Hulkamania wrote: Relying on another player to police themselves on egg laying is not how it works. When you give the AI an utterly irresponsible law, you are the one who suffers the consequences of their actions. When you leave a TTV laying around and someone uses it to blow things up, you are equally to blame in this exchange for having left such a dangerous thing out. When you give someone the ability to spawn xenomorph eggs, it then becomes your fault that they used said power in the first place.
During the course of that discussion, multiple admins made it clear that the responsibility for deaths caused by explosives left lying around falls on the person who manufactured the explosive device in the first place.

Every time you get bwoinked it's because you're injecting mayhem into a round without giving a shit about the consequences.

How are you still making these arguments with a straight face?
Oh shit, your totally right.

Now I know this may sound like I'm lying out of my ass, but I actually forgot about this point.
Considering it was 4 and a half months ago and that was just a point made against me in an appeal, not my actual reason for appealing, can you see how I could've forgotten about it.

Again, your right though, I was told of this before and I just forgot.

So, overall I still stand that I was trying to follow the rules. I may be a little retarded but I didn't sign on with the intention of ruining others rounds.

If you believe me, I still hold my offer.
Remove the week ban from chem and triple the punishment of future offenses that involve me handing out explosives to random crew members.
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bobbahbrown
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by bobbahbrown » #524453

For anyone wondering this was round 123824. (src, statbus, scrubby)
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capn_monkeypaw
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by capn_monkeypaw » #524454

Dude, you have notes and bans from ten separate bombing incidents. C'mon.

But please, continue. Tell us more about how our rules pertaining to explosives somehow remain murky to you.
Isy232
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by Isy232 » #524473

capn_monkeypaw wrote:Dude, you have notes and bans from ten separate bombing incidents. C'mon.

But please, continue. Tell us more about how our rules pertaining to explosives somehow remain murky to you.
Most of those were when I was quite new to the game and still getting used to how powerful bombs could be. All were done by me with a fair amount being accidents or bombs going off when I didn't intend to or causing more damage than I intended.

None of my previous incidents were at all related to giving other people explosive devices.
Last edited by Isy232 on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Isy232
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by Isy232 » #524519

If your not interested in the offer I've thought of, could you consider lowering the ban duration based on the fact that I did not mean to greif and was trying to follow what I though the rules were at the time?

I wont be stupid enough to do this shit again and I wont forget about this ruling because of the fact that I was banned specifically for it.
Unless I'm a traitor, then I'm definitely doing this.
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Re: [Zero the big boy] Isy232 - Bomb's-R-US

Post by zero the big boy » #524920

Being honest with you I can appreciate the sincereness of your apology but I don't feel up to a compromise. You made an oopsies and got the punishment and that's really how it should be. At the time of posting this the ban's pretty much half way over. In my book this is basically denied especially after monkeypaw's input towards it and your last ban appeal so unless someone wants to input or overrule me i'll clock out.
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