[phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

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Archanial
 
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[phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby Archanial » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:35 pm #529173

BYOND account: Archanial
Character name: Michael Sagan
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 1 day
Ban reason: Ahelped to ask if he could kill the Cap for refusing to hand out AA during warops, was told no and went ahead and did it anyway.
Time ban was placed: 2019-12-15 21:14:29
Server you were playing on when banned: Event hall EU
Round ID in which ban was placed: 125885
Your side of the story: War ops. I asked if I could validate the captain for sabotaging our chances of survival by not handing out AA. Instead of helping he tried to baricade himself in bridge (bridge lockdown) and refused 2 times to give us AA when asked. After a negative response from an admin I instead attacked captain, put him to crit, cuffed and healed him while some sec took the card to HoPs office.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I played a few rounds with was ops and everytime AA was handed immediately to not loose time. I didn't kill captain (which ban reason implies) and I didn't work against the crew. I had many situation when I was beaten by some tider just to steal my item then healed or put to medbay by him and everytime that happened my ahelp was marked as IC issue.
References of good conduct: No idea what to put there, I was trying to help whole crew?
I know its only 1 day long but I just disagree with the ban reason.



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bobbahbrown
 
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Re: [phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby bobbahbrown » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:41 pm #529175

Round 125885. (src, statbus, scrubby) -- Archanial as Michael Sagan the engineer, and Herder05 as Billy Bob the captain.

To give substance to the claim above, the captain never died and was only beaten to -26HP before being healed by the player above who was later banned. I feel its also worth noting that the player began attacking the captain at 21:10:18~ and healed the captain at 21:11:03~, less than a minute of the captain's time taken by this player.

Code: Select all
(first attack)
[2019-12-15 21:10:18.588] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 91)  (Bridge (106, 136, 2))
<snip>
(immediately before being healed)
[2019-12-15 21:11:07.694] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has grabbed Herder05/(Billy Bob) passive grab (NEWHP: -26)  (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))
<snip>
(first heal)
[2019-12-15 21:11:14.826] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: -6)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))

HommandoSA
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Re: [phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby HommandoSA » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:58 pm #529180

Even if handing out AA during war ops is the norm you are never entitled to it and you are just as open to punishment for having it, distributing it, or for having weapons.

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capn_monkeypaw
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Re: [phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:00 am #529365

Thank you for taking the time to appeal.

This incident is an excellent example of why WarOps is such a controversial game mode. There have been a number of lengthy threads in Policy Discussion about it as of late. Reading through them will show you that the opinions held by players, admins and coders about this mode span a very large spectrum.

WarOps upends the expectations of a typical round. We could spend a lot of time reviewing each of the norms that players typically throw out of an airlock as soon as war is declared, but it's a lot faster - and to the point - if we review what Nukies Declaring War™ doesn't change.

WarOps does not:
  • Suspend enforcement of our rules.
  • Suspend the IC chain of command.
  • Lower the bar for justifiable IC mutiny.
Both your and bobbahbrown's statements in this thread appear to focus on the severity of your attack on the Captain. To do so is to broadly miss the point, as your conflict with the Captain was not a simple greytider's dispute over insuls in Primary Tool Storage.

And while I typically find the log excerpts that Bobbah posts into these threads to be generally helpful, his omission of critical context in this case only serves to obscure the core issue:

In the face of any number of alternative options, you forced entry into the bridge during a nuclear emergency and beat a clearly inexperienced Captain into crit despite being told not to do so by an admin after you ahelped to ask if it was okay.

For your benefit and that of anyone else reading this thread, I'm going to start from the beginning and walk you though the actions (and actions not taken) that earned you this ban.



We'll begin our logdive a little less than three minutes into the round, shortly after the declaration of war. The crew is already clamoring for AA over comms and they have begun to gather around the HoPline.

While inexperienced Captain Billy Bob attempts to make sense of what just happened, you begin to hack the (MetaStation) HoP office's port airlock:
Code: Select all
[2019-12-15 21:07:55.975] TCOMMS: Herder05/(Billy Bob) [Command] (spans:  command_headset ) "Whats going on" (language: Galactic Common) (Central Maintenance (123, 133, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:07:58.213] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(89,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21002f1c%5D&action=pulse&wire=red
[2019-12-15 21:07:58.458] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(89,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21002f1c%5D&action=pulse&wire=magenta
[2019-12-15 21:07:58.790] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(89,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21002f1c%5D&action=pulse&wire=gold
[2019-12-15 21:08:01.906] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(90,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21002f1c%5D&action=pulse&wire=cyan
[2019-12-15 21:08:02.190] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(90,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21002f1c%5D&action=pulse&wire=crimson
[2019-12-15 21:08:02.417] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(90,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21002f1c%5D&action=pulse&wire=brown
[2019-12-15 21:08:02.713] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(90,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21002f1c%5D&action=pulse&wire=blue

21 seconds after gaining entry to the HoP's office, you pop the starboard airlock:
Code: Select all
[2019-12-15 21:08:23.162] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(98,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=[0x21015ae3]&action=tgui:initialize
[2019-12-15 21:08:23.627] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(98,132,2)]) :
[2019-12-15 21:08:23.627] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(98,132,2)]) :
[2019-12-15 21:08:24.027] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(98,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21015ae3%5D&action=pulse&wire=gold
[2019-12-15 21:08:25.331] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(98,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21015ae3%5D&action=pulse&wire=magenta
[2019-12-15 21:08:29.746] TCOMMS: Herder05/(Billy Bob) [Command] (spans:  command_headset ) "HOS TO BRIDGE" (language: Galactic Common) (Captain's Quarters (119, 140, 2))

10 seconds later, you're on the bridge:
Code: Select all
[2019-12-15 21:08:34.852] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(101,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=[0x21016879]&action=tgui:initialize
[2019-12-15 21:08:34.996] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(101,132,2)]) :
[2019-12-15 21:08:34.998] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(101,132,2)]) :
[2019-12-15 21:08:35.850] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(101,132,2)]) : /datum/tgui src=%5B0x21016879%5D&action=pulse&wire=magenta

Moments later, the Captain spots you and you have this exchange:

[2019-12-15 21:08:48.688] SAY: Herder05/(Billy Bob) "OUT" (Bridge (114, 132, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:08:52.633] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "Come AA dispenser" (Bridge (113, 134, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:08:56.179] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "we need AA" (Bridge (113, 134, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:09:02.042] SAY: Herder05/(Billy Bob) "NOT RIGHT NOW" (Bridge (108, 136, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:09:05.654] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "why?" (Bridge (103, 135, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:09:08.420] TCOMMS: Herder05/(Billy Bob) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) "HOS TO BRIDGE" (language: Galactic Common) (Bridge (107, 137, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:09:09.114] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "It's warops" (Bridge (103, 135, 2))



We've now arrived at the critical juncture.

We're now less than four minutes into the round.
It's been about two minutes since war was declared.
Approximately 18 minutes until nukies come knocking.

You're facing an overwhelmed Captain who is unsure of what to do. 18 minutes to go. Ample time to try and talk the Cap off the ledge and convince him to start handing out AA.

So what do you do?

*BWOINK*

[2019-12-15 21:09:23.738] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #1: Archanial/(Michael Sagan): Can I kill captain for keeping AA to himself in warops?

You ahelp the above.

You express your impatience:

[2019-12-15 21:09:26.818] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "hello" (Bridge (103, 135, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:09:29.597] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "you here?" (Bridge (103, 135, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:09:31.965] TCOMMS: Herder05/(Billy Bob) [Command] (spans: command_headset ) "You and all of sec" (language: Galactic Common) (Bridge (107, 137, 2))

You get a response. You reply.

[2019-12-15 21:09:33.487] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FatalX1/(Santa Claus)->Archanial/(Michael Sagan): Err, thatd be a no
[2019-12-15 21:09:45.430] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Archanial/(Michael Sagan)->FatalX1/(Santa Claus): he is sabotaging station

You attempt to steal the Captain's ID via the click+drag menu:

[2019-12-15 21:09:48.639] HREF: Archanial (usr:Michael Sagan[(106,137,2)]) : Billy Bob src=[mob_528];item=256

You argue:

[2019-12-15 21:09:58.763] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "we need AA" (Bridge (110, 137, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:01.262] SAY: Herder05/(Billy Bob) "can you not?" (Bridge (108, 136, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:03.989] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "you dumb fuck" (Bridge (110, 137, 2))

You decide, 38 seconds after being told not to, that toolboxing the captain 14 times is the way forward:
Code: Select all
[2019-12-15 21:10:11.363] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has thrown the mechanical toolbox (Bridge (101, 135, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:18.588] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 91)  (Bridge (106, 136, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:19.707] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked [engraved message] with the mechanical toolbox (Bridge (106, 136, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:20.283] ATTACK: Herder05/(Billy Bob) has shoved Archanial/(Michael Sagan) (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (109, 136, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:21.021] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 82)  (Bridge (108, 137, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:25.078] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 73)  (Bridge (114, 130, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:26.077] ATTACK: Herder05/(Billy Bob) has shoved Archanial/(Michael Sagan) (NEWHP: 100)  (Bridge (114, 134, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:26.281] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 64)  (Bridge (114, 135, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:28.848] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FatalX1/(Santa Claus)->Archanial/(Michael Sagan): His choice, I mean he is the captain
[2019-12-15 21:10:30.004] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 55)  (Captain's Quarters (115, 130, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:33.799] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 46)  (Central Primary Hallway (125, 127, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:39.081] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 28)  (Central Primary Hallway (126, 141, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:39.456] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 19)  (Central Primary Hallway (126, 142, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:40.195] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 19)  (Central Primary Hallway (125, 143, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:40.937] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 10)  (Central Primary Hallway (125, 144, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:42.895] ATTACK: Herder05/(Billy Bob) has shoved Archanial/(Michael Sagan) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (120, 144, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:44.530] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 1)  (Central Primary Hallway (116, 144, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:46.296] ATTACK: Herder05/(Billy Bob) has shoved Archanial/(Michael Sagan) (NEWHP: 100)  (Central Primary Hallway (109, 144, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:48.159] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -8)  (Central Primary Hallway (106, 146, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:49.175] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -17)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 148, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:51.507] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has attacked Herder05/(Billy Bob) with mechanical toolbox (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -26)  (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))

Stunned at what I've just seen, I (quite rudely) jump into Fatal's ticket: (Sorry, Fatal.)

[2019-12-15 21:10:54.553] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Phuzzylodgik/(Carl Jowers)->Archanial/(Michael Sagan): Jagoff, what did we just tell you?

You handcuff the Captain, strip his ID and reply:

[2019-12-15 21:10:55.752] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "get AA" (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:10:57.188] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has handcuffed Herder05/(Billy Bob) (NEWHP: -26) (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:03.801] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has stripped PDA-Billy Bob (Captain) off Herder05/(Billy Bob) (NEWHP: -26) (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:06.914] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Archanial/(Michael Sagan)->Phuzzylodgik/(Carl Jowers): not killing him just crit

You then start to patch him up.
Code: Select all
[2019-12-15 21:11:07.694] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has grabbed Herder05/(Billy Bob) passive grab (NEWHP: -26)  (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:13.895] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: -16)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:14.826] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: -6)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:14.976] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: 4)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:16.069] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: 14)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:16.218] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: 24)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:16.368] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: 34)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:16.988] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: 44)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:17.313] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: 54)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:17.458] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: 64)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:17.608] ATTACK: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) has healed Herder05/(Billy Bob) with suture (NEWHP: 73)  (Fore Primary Hallway (106, 150, 2))

From this point on, I'll let all of our words tell the rest of the story:
[2019-12-15 21:11:19.940] SAY: Herder05/(Billy Bob) "FUCK OFF" (Fore Primary Hallway (107, 150, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:40.596] SAY: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) "retard" (Central Primary Hallway (91, 145, 2))

[2019-12-15 21:11:46.569] TCOMMS: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) [Common] (spans: ) "Captain is a faggot" (language: Galactic Common) (Central Primary Hallway (87, 139, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:51.122] TCOMMS: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) [Common] (spans: ) "And he denied AA" (language: Galactic Common) (Port Primary Hallway (86, 140, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:11:56.050] TCOMMS: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) [Common] (spans: ) "What should I do with him?" (language: Galactic Common) (Port Primary Hallway (86, 140, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:12:53.512] TCOMMS: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) [Common] (spans: command_headset ) "Fuck the captain" (language: Galactic Common) (Captain's Quarters (121, 137, 2))
[2019-12-15 21:12:58.109] TCOMMS: Archanial/(Michael Sagan) [Common] (spans: command_headset ) "He denied AA" (language: Galactic Common) (Captain's Quarters (121, 137, 2))


[2019-12-15 21:12:59.744] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Phuzzylodgik/(Carl Jowers)->Archanial/(Michael Sagan): Handing out AA is not a requirement of warops. - - You asked if you could attack the cap over it, we said no and you did it anyway.

[2019-12-15 21:13:15.096] TCOMMS: Herder05/(Billy Bob) [Common] (spans: command_headset ) "I DID NOT DENY JUST WAS BUSY" (language: Galactic Common) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))

[2019-12-15 21:14:11.064] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Archanial/(Michael Sagan)->Phuzzylodgik/(Carl Jowers): I asked if I could kill him (valid) instead I put him to crit, healed him and took AA for everyone. By not giving us AA he is actively trying to sabotage our odds of survival and he was just standing in bridge

[2019-12-15 21:14:47.012] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Phuzzylodgik/(Carl Jowers)->Archanial/(Michael Sagan): Stop arguing the technicalities of it. - - You're getting a 24 hour ban. - - Why ahelp if you're not going to listen?



Here's the long and short of it: I don't really understand how you can - without blushing, anyway - make the argument that this exchange...

[2019-12-15 21:09:23.738] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #1: Archanial/(Michael Sagan): Can I kill captain for keeping AA to himself in warops?
[2019-12-15 21:09:33.487] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FatalX1/(Santa Claus)->Archanial/(Michael Sagan): Err, thatd be a no

...somehow gave you permission to to beat the Captain into crit, kidnap and then steal from him. If you truly feel that you can make that argument with a straight face and that the distinction actually matters, I'll edit the ban note to read "Ahelped to ask if he could kill the Cap for refusing to hand out AA during warops, was told no and then proceeded to beat him into crit instead."

That's as far as I'm willing to edit. I'm not going to fundamentally change the note's contents or nullify the actual ban.

Archanial
 
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:29 pm
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Re: [phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby Archanial » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:19 pm #529557

Thanks for taking your time to replay and go thru the logs.
Killing and robbing someone are entirely different things. While I understand your point I feel like you don't understand mine.
You're right, command chain still applies and I was wrong about being entitled to AA, but I didn't kill the captain. For me attack and kill are entirely different things. Killing someone is excluding them from round for a really long time or sometimes indefinitely. I (again) didn't kill the captain, just put him to crit and robbed him of his AA. With all that cuffing I took maybe 2 or 3 minutes out of his round. I wronged him, he could retaliate, call security, perma or even execute me.
According to escalation policy:
You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence.
and I still believe my reason to insigate the conflict was IC justified.
I disagree with the proposed note. The fact I healed him (also that was not forced by bwoink as I grabbed first aid way before that) right after is important there.
Robbing someone once doesn't justify the ban in my opinion.

PostThis post was deleted by MortoSasye on Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:39 am.
Reason: Peanut

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capn_monkeypaw
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Re: [phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:52 pm #531103

Archanial wrote:Thanks for taking your time to replay and go thru the logs.
Killing and robbing someone are entirely different things. While I understand your point I feel like you don't understand mine.
You're right, command chain still applies and I was wrong about being entitled to AA, but I didn't kill the captain. For me attack and kill are entirely different things. Killing someone is excluding them from round for a really long time or sometimes indefinitely. I (again) didn't kill the captain, just put him to crit and robbed him of his AA. With all that cuffing I took maybe 2 or 3 minutes out of his round. I wronged him, he could retaliate, call security, perma or even execute me.
According to escalation policy:
You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence.
and I still believe my reason to insigate the conflict was IC justified.
I disagree with the proposed note. The fact I healed him (also that was not forced by bwoink as I grabbed first aid way before that) right after is important there.
Robbing someone once doesn't justify the ban in my opinion.


I fully understand your point. I simply disagree. To summarize my position:

You and others keep trying to frame your conflict with the captain as one of generic escalation when it's clearly not. This wasn't an argument over a welding mask in maint. You mutinied using lethal force and did so after ahelping for - and not receiving - approval to do so from an administrator.

To quote something I said in another thread a few months ago:

"We allow players to mutiny against their superiors only when those supervisors/heads do things that severely and adversely affect the rounds of other players. Examples include uploading malicious laws, gulagging crewmembers because of their race or executing subordinates without cause. We don't expect players to serve under tyrannical shitheads and we accordingly enable our players to deal with them IC.

You don't get to mutiny simply because you disagree with one of your boss' decisions.
You don't get to mutiny simply because your boss told you to do a better job.
You don't get to mutiny simply because your boss isn't doing what you want."


To put a finer point on it, you don't get to mutiny simply because the captain isn't handing out AA fast enough for your liking.

You lethally attacked the captain five minutes into the round.
You lethally attacked the captain three minutes into war ops.
You lethally attacked the captain despite the fact that he didn't actually say no to you.

You demanded AA. He said "not right now." You beat him into crit for it.

You did not possess any sort of reasonable IC justification for your actions.

If all of this had happened ten - hell, even five - minutes after the declaration of war, it's exceedingly unlikely that I would have taken any action whatsoever against you.

You received this ban because of your impatience.

For accuracy's sake, I have edited your note to the following:

"Two minutes after war was declared, ahelped to ask if he could kill the Cap for refusing to hand out AA during warops. After receiving a negative response, proceeded to beat the Captain into crit and steal his ID."

Headmins are of course welcome to add more insight or overrule the above entirely, but for now I consider the matter closed.

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Re: [phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby ATHATH » Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:51 pm #531115

capn_monkeypaw wrote:"Two minutes after war was declared, ahelped to ask if he could kill the Cap for refusing to hand out AA during warops. After receiving a negative response, proceeded to beat the Captain into crit and steal his ID."

You might want to mention that he healed the captain up out of crit afterwards, as not mentioning that implies that he critted the captain and then left him for dead, which would have been a much greater crime (especially since you told him NOT to kill the captain, as mentioned in the note) than what actually happened.

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capn_monkeypaw
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Re: [phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:08 am #531147

ATHATH wrote:
capn_monkeypaw wrote:"Two minutes after war was declared, ahelped to ask if he could kill the Cap for refusing to hand out AA during warops. After receiving a negative response, proceeded to beat the Captain into crit and steal his ID."

You might want to mention that he healed the captain up out of crit afterwards, as not mentioning that implies that he critted the captain and then left him for dead, which would have been a much greater crime (especially since you told him NOT to kill the captain, as mentioned in the note) than what actually happened.


Fair.

I have updated the note as follows:

"Two minutes after war was declared, ahelped to ask if he could kill the Cap for refusing to hand out AA during warops. After receiving a negative response, proceeded to beat the Captain into crit before cuffing him and stripping his ID.

After healing the captain with sutures and leaving him cuffed in central primary, he then immediately raided the Captain's office with his newfound access, taking the Captain's headset and sabre from the closet within."

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Re: [phuzzylodgik] <Archanial>

Postby Hulkamania » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:26 am #531429

I would just like to add that although something may be the "norm" or the meta response to a situation, like handing out AA during war ops, no one is required to behave in any particular way that is not actively breaking the rules. Someone may be a bit of a detriment to the crew by not playing optimally, but this isn't a competitive multiplayer game and optimal play is not required nor even encouraged.

Furthermore arguing that you only beat him into crit is semantics, the administrator told you not to do it, and you proceed with a poor choice of action anyway. The note has been amended to better reflect the punishment in the future, but the punishment itself is still completely valid.


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