[FloranOtten] Mrstrawman - spacing corpses note appeal

[strawman]

BYOND account: Mrstrawman
Character name: Jan Dabini
Ban type: Note
Ban length: Indefinite
Ban reason: Please don't start spacing corpses until the round has ended.
Time ban was placed: 2020-01-29 20:44:48
Server you were playing on when banned: Event Hall
Round ID in which ban was placed: 129206

Your side of the story: I was playing a round of chemist trying to start an atropine/pentetic factory in the plumbing lab. Shuttle is called due to a plasmaflood, shuttle arrives and is emagged immediately. About half a dozen of us including myself are left alive in departures, one player brought along a locker filled with corpses. Having little else to do with less than a minute left before round-end; and finding it rather funny when they rocket into space, I helped throw a few of them out of the arrivals airlock.

Why you think you should be unbanned: The admin contacted me promptly citing that spacing corpses before the round ends constitutes a grief. I understand that as a non-antag and without significant prior escalation that this is forbidden. However, with approximately 30 seconds left until the round ends and there being not even a remote chance of revival due to time constraints; as in even if a fully stocked surgery table, defibrillator and advanced medkit/chems with or without strange reagent were present in a recently plasmaflooded arrivals, I don't follow how in this exact set of circumstances it is seen as an offence. I already have a small number of nasty looking bans and notes for being an overall brainlet shitter, but I am actively improving both my behaviour and attention to the rules as time goes on, and to me this note seems like a bit of a reach. I would like it removed if my reasoning and explanation are agreeable.

[FloranOtten]

I really don't know what to tell you beyond 'do not space corpses until the round has ended'.

[strawman]

I'd have been alright if it ended with that reprimand, but a note for it, particularly given the scenario, feels a bit strong.

[Qbopper]

this is potentially a peanut but I think it's relevant

It's worth noting (heh) that notes can have a legitimate impact on how an admin views future situations with a player - If the note just says "don't space corpses before round end pls" [EDIT: it does essentially say just that] without the context of it being 30 seconds before the shuttle arrives, that might unfairly colour an admin's perspective of that user

I really don't know what to tell you beyond 'do not space corpses until the round has ended'.

A reply like this is fair, but ignores the long term implications of a note

This is conjecture but I'm also pretty sure players take notes a little more personally than admins do - to us, it's just something that you give a once over (or some other analogy of equal irreverence, whatever), but to a player, it's likely a vaguely scary admin team having the ability to label you with anything they want

Not trying to give a ruling either way, just thought it might help to provide a bit of a longer term perspective

[EDIT 2: also worth noting the reply from floran after this post, which changes the situation]

[strawman]

It's worth noting (heh) that notes can have a legitimate impact on how an admin views future situations with a player - If the note just says "don't space corpses before round end pls" [EDIT: it does essentially say just that] without the context of it being 30 seconds before the shuttle arrives, that might unfairly colour an admin's perspective of that user

...

This is conjecture but I'm also pretty sure players take notes a little more personally than admins do - to us, it's just something that you give a once over (or some other analogy of equal irreverence, whatever), but to a player, it's likely a vaguely scary admin team having the ability to label you with anything they want

I couldn't have summed up my concern any better. My worry is over the implications presented in a vacuum by every note, warning or ban in my list of remarks, and that this addition - or the way in that it is worded - is unwarranted. Thank you for your input.

[FloranOtten]

I'm willing to add more context to the note, but I'm not willing to lift it.

The reason this is a note is because of your replies in ahelps. You made it quite clear you disagreed with the ruling, and I suspect that if I had not made the note you would simply have done it again. It would make sense, then, to log your actions.

Quotes from the ahelp:

ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Mrstrawman/(Jan Dabini)->FloranOtten/(Athena Teagarden): How is that a grief? It'd be impossible to revive them at this point

ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Mrstrawman/(Jan Dabini)->FloranOtten/(Athena Teagarden): I really can't space a corpse when it'd take more time than the round has left to revive it?

ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Mrstrawman/(Jan Dabini)->FloranOtten/(Athena Teagarden): Fine, but that's a retarded stance to take

Logs taken from https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/event- ... 6/game.log and chopped up for ease of posting.

[strawman]

I'm willing to accept the addition of context, but not with that kind of assumption being made.

I'll be abundantly clear that just because I disagree with a ruling, that doesn't mean I'm going to go against it after the fact as some kind of protest. Had you given me a stern warning then that would have been that; I'd have been a bit frustrated and a bit bemused over the context, but nonetheless would have gone on not thinking much of it other than to just not do it again. I have previous bans and notes for various moronic actions, but I'm not a repeat offender going over the same spiel because I think it's funny or that it's going to somehow affect policy.

I'd rather have a more neutral third party make a ruling on this, if possible.

[FloranOtten]

If that's what you want, I'll ask the headmins to handle it.

[strawman]

Yes please.

[Hulkamania]

Nothing about this note seems frivolous or inaccurate. You should not be spacing corpses willy nilly before the round ends. If this was a ban I would step in and overrule it, but as it stands this is really little more than a warning to not continue that line of behavior in the future.

I understand fully that notes point towards a history, and are used in the decision making process, however in this case the admin saw your already storied history and still agreed that a simple note would suffice.

I am however in agreement that the note as it stands is rather unprofessional, lacks context, and should be amended to provide context, and also elaborate that the player was not aware of the rule at the time. Ignorance is not an excuse, but it again provides further context as to why this was not a ban but only a note, it should be quite obvious that this was a "i talked to them about it and they said they won't anymore" kind of situation.