[Lazengann] OFQ - retroactive permaban for a round I didn't play

[OFQ]

BYOND account: OFQ
Character name: ???
Ban type: server
Ban length: perma
Ban reason:

Server you were playing on when banne: I didn't
Round ID in which ban was placed: 130104 (pretty sure I didn't play it)
Time ban was placed: no idea

Your side of the story:
So I haven't played SS13 for a while, tried to login recently and got this message. Originally I got a week ban for abusing slimes + (from another admin) a 2 day ban that didn't cover the role so I even helped to fix it.

I'm pretty sure this is a case of a broken telephone. I would assume this ban is basically for making a stupid (maybe) joke about abusing slime on non RP servers:

At the same time I don't really care for antag roles (most of the times I give them away, you can cheack ahelp logs. Actually, I have a plan for an epic abductors run but that's probably it.) Instead what I would like to happen is adding clarification to that ban note (or adding additional note) that clarifies that this activity is ok on low RP servers so I might continue my crusade on Event Hall without having to give a lengthy explanation to admeme if someone ahelps me :D

This was may way of asking admins to clarify (in my ban note) the fact that bans were applied for abusing slime on RP server specifically. This was stated both by the admeme that role banned me:

I would like to point out that i was around the day before and you constantly take the anomaly slimes to do the exact same thing every time. Destroy the supermatter APC than the grav gen and the AI. I bwoinked you before killing the AI. Ruining the round for multiple players with a minor side antag to get your point across for a nerf.

Antagonism and murderboning.
You're an antag, great! Treat your role as an interesting challenge and not an excuse to destroy other people’s game experience. Your actions should make the game more fun, more exciting and more enjoyable for everyone; you can treat your objectives as suggestions on what you should attempt to achieve but you are also encouraged to ignore them if you've got a better idea. You do NOT have to act in a nefarious or evil way, but you are not allowed to just go on a silent rampage and eliminate all the players in a power trip. We're all here to have a good time, after all.

Just because you are a slime you are not exempt from this while playing on manuel, i expect some kind of escalation before going off to murder the AI and blow up engineering rendering the station uninhabitable unprovoked. This is not really making for fun game play for anyone but yourself.

And other admeme (zxaber) at GitHub:

That ban was due to actions on Manuel, which has extra restrictions on what antags can do. I assume that's critical to why the ban was made.

To be clear, I generally play on Bagil and Event Hall. On the light RP servers, slimes are considered full antags and full antags can do whatever.

Also in my thread about the "slimes op" issue many stated that the slime isn't broken and doesn't need any fix.

The best part:

After I proved that the slime needs a fix half of the mods and coders told me to PR a fix (and learn to code :D ) so I made like 3 PRs at GitHub with slime nerfs but they all were voted down because people don't believe that slimes are too strong. But eventually I made a "soft fix" PR and it got merged This + the fact that also use to help dudes on other PRs with sprites and stuff kinda makes me believe that TG won't be better without me. Also I honestly can't understand why would anyone equate abusing op stuff to convince people that it needs a nerf(and then implementing it) with F-ING TERRORISM!

So the conclusion:

Welp. The quality of conversations that I had both on forum and at TG GitHub actually makes me sad. I have a lot of experience with maintaining large open source projects and dealing with "permanently confused" and salty people as admin/mod on a big board with a ton of pubescent kids... But this is something new for me. The fact that so many people kept telling me "learn to code/make a PR" when I linked it like in the post above the message. Or how people seems to infer intent for everything you do and the very worst intent they can come up with. Or even how many people just spam GitHub tickets with totally irrelevant information while they clearly didn't even read the code. Or how admemes retroactively apply perma bans for a joke on forum. I bet non of you even gonna read the message to this point (say if you did, I'm just curious). All this situation makes me want to take a shower X_X

[oranges]

Non peanut post as headcoder.

Doing things like this will never reach my attention, so you're not going to achieve anything other than pissing people off and getting banned.

[Lazengann]

If your goal is to fuck up the game for everyone to make a point then there's no reason to let you play it with us. You made it pretty clear you intended to continue doing it on the other servers so I made a judgment call that your presence on them would only negatively impact the fun of the other players.

Out of the last 20 rounds you played, you observed 17 of them which shows impressive commitment to what you were trying to do, and plan(ned) to continue doing.

[OFQ]

If your goal is to fuck up the game for everyone to make a point then there's no reason to let you play it with us. You made it pretty clear you intended to continue doing it on the other servers so I made a judgment call that your presence on them would only negatively impact the fun of the other players.

Out of the last 20 rounds you played, you observed 17 of them which shows impressive commitment to what you were trying to do, and plan(ned) to continue doing.

I observed because I didn't feel like playing SS13 for like last month or so. Due to burn out so I just kept it in alt tab for the sake of seeing if something fun will happen. You can also check my ahelps I gave up pretty much all my round start antags.

If your goal is to fuck up the game for everyone to make a point then there's no reason to let you play it with us.

It never was my goal. If I wanted to I would simply do my classic SM delem into singulo or fusion flood (as Delamination XXL) or simply put a huge stack of bins on a conveyor belt and then come up with the point that the game engine needs an optimization :D

My intent was to show that pyro slime is too powerful for a "minor antag". If you read the thread about it I clearly stated that I think that it is too hard to catch it/prevent from ruining important infrastructure but at the same time there are solutions in game that can help to fight it. It was a case study and a way to find to what limit I can push the slime shenanigans while brain storming with others what can be done about it. I guess me coming from e-sports games like SC where the only way to nerf something is to abuse the hell out of it isn't applicable here. Also in my first ticket said that I won't do it again

Well I won't do it again. Personally I find it extremely stupid how anomaly/SM slimes are designed. Also I proposed fixes for this in the referenced thread.

So I clearly haven't planed the "crusade".. I guess making jokes in a "ban appeals" also not a good idea. The more you live the more you learn :thinknig:

[OFQ]

For what it's worth, if you do get this rule 1 ban lifted, someone will rule 0 ban you again for exploiting.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/48773 it's "feature abuse" to prove that the feature should be reversed/nerfed.

[OFQ]

Non peanut post as headcoder.

Doing things like this will never reach my attention, so you're not going to achieve anything other than pissing people off and getting banned.

I'm convinced that if not for my slimming any of my slime nerf PRs wouldn't get merged (And I was right, look at the down votes).
From my past experience with game balance, the only way to get a nerf is exposing how op something is or nothing will get done.
But then I realized that in SS13 there are like a thousand of similar mechanics and the game balance is pretty much is an admin issue, so the whole idea was kinda retarded in the retrospective... So I made the "admeme powered fix" for the problem and it got merged and everyone seems to be happy.

[OFQ]

I guess my point is that escalation from "hey I did ask you to have RP reasons on Manuel to do this and you did it again without them(on 2 hours long shift with called shuttle)" to "permanent server ban" without any recurring violations is kinda too much, no? Technically I haven't even being noted for it before getting "server ban" for a singular law violation that other admins viewed as Manuel specific transgression. And the only reason for it is that instead of coming up with an excuse I was 100% open about it and even helped admemes by mentioning that I was warned before (without admin note) and that I think what I'm doing needs a nerf.

[OFQ]

Also my 2 days server ban went off long ago + I actually didn't have slime role ban. Because, for some reason, slime had ROLE_PAI and it wasn't in the antag ban list that I got for the sliming. But instead of abusing it I both told admemes about the ban hole + fixed it with my PR (now its ROLE_SENTIENCE)

[Lazengann]

Also in my first ticket said that I won't do it again

You made a second ban appeal so you could have the note edited in a way that'd make it more convenient for you to continue doing it on the other servers. You then said you planned on continuing to do it. Your credibility is in the fetal position in the corner, scared, abused and confused.

I'm under no obligation to let you intentionally fuck up the game for others in a childish cry for attention, trying to force other people to listen to you. The point of a roleplaying game is for everyone to have fun. Your playstyle and intentions run counter to that concept and are inappropriate on any server. I feel your multiple appeals and the posts in them show a complete lack of consideration for other players and a failure to understand why your actions would be frowned upon. At this time, I see no reason why lifting this ban would benefit the servers or the players on them and so I have no intention to do so.

Addressed to the peanut gallery for reasons of precedent - I'm primarily referencing this ban appeal. The difference between what he did and what antagonists normally do when they fuck things up is that most people do it to have fun and relieve stress which is the point of a video game. OFQ did it because he knew it'd ruin everyone's fun and if he did it enough then maybe they'd get mad enough to listen to him.

[OFQ]

Also in my first ticket said that I won't do it again

You made a second ban appeal so you could have the note edited in a way that'd make it more convenient for you to continue doing it on the other servers. You then said you planned on continuing to do it. Your credibility is in the fetal position in the corner, scared, abused and confused.

There was a disagreement between admins on weather it is Manuel RP related issue or it should cover other servers too. So I asked to clarify it. My position always was that the slime is a problem on all servers. And the response from other admemes like:

From Vekter

I can say from a personal standpoint that if I see you doing it on any server, I'm banning you from the role permanently, as I would with anyone else doing it specifically to screw with the round. As others have said, this is a coder trying to fix an admin issue.

helped me to make a stronger case. Like I already proved I had the means to continue doing it but I choose not to.

[OFQ]

Also, Lazengann, can you stop with the mind reading please?

[OFQ]

And projecting :eye_roll:

- - - - - - -

The difference between what he did and what antagonists normally do when they fuck things up is that most people do it to have fun and relieve stress which is the point of a video game.

Why it's ok to fuck other peoples fun just because you are being bullied in the real life and want to "ruing someones' sand castle" but it's not ok to do the same because you believe that in a long run everyone will be better off when the op thing is fixed. Especially when I said that I believe that it was a bad strategy given what kind of a game SS13 is. I award you no points (c)

[Lazengann]

But yeah the reason I treated it as more than just a joke is because you made an actual ban appeal to try and make life easier for you to continue doing it. The difference between joking about shooting up a school and trying to purchase a gun if you want a dramatic example

[OFQ]

The difference between joking about shooting up a school and trying to purchase a gun if you want a dramatic

Wait. You mean it is ok to purchase a gun or to joke about shooting up a school, I'm confused.

- - - - - -


How about this instead. After I provided extra info you still believe that if I won't get permanently banned I will keep trying to abuse the game mechanics to get them fixed?

[Lazengann]

I pinged the headmins to rule on this mess a while ago by the way

[SkeletalElite]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... rd#p449902

EDIT: Actually, I'm going to lift this ban specifically. There was some precedent in the past for not banning for this, so it's not fair to ban you for something that was historically not punished for. However, future instances of this behavior will result in a ban.

I believe the same applies here. Historically, anomaly slime precedent is they are antags and rule 4 applies. It's what I was told first time I rolled it and I ahelped and asked if they were antags.

[peoplearestrange]

EDIT: I believe all the evidence has been layed out and it should be decided by the heads as this has become a rule 0/1 ban and as such should be dealt with in a more formal manner.
I would ask us all to refrain from posting unless genuine NEW information is brought to light over this situation.

[Hulkamania]

This isn't even really a question and the fact that it's sparked as much debate as it has is downright silly.

If someone is purposefully using an exploit of some kind (which I wouldn't necessarily even classify this as) once to demonstrate it, that's fine if it's not utterly game breaking. This is irrelevant to this case entirely though, despite the debate that it's sparked. As oranges has said, this is not how you get the code team to do what you want, and indeed your PR was merged because it was (what a shocker) a valid PR, not because you went on some self-righteous crusade fancying yourself as some kind of hero bringing about change when no one else had the guts to.

Lets face facts here, you've been banned for this exact behavior not once, not twice, but THREE times before this permaban took place. At that point, this is not a "the admins are wrong in this scenario I can't believe how unfair this is" because you were given nothing but AMPLE warning that your behavior is not allowed on the server. If you cannot abide by the simple instruction from three different admins to not do the very thing you've continued to do, you can officially be labeled "a fucking idiot" and as such, shouldn't be playing on the server to begin with.

You weren't online at the time that the ban took place, and that is indeed not how something should be handled, but from reading your history and reading your posts in this thread, it's painfully obvious to me that you still think you were the good guy in the situation. Worth noting is that you start the thread off by saying that it was a case of "broken telephone" as if laz had it all wrong, then you go on to continue to explain throughout the thread that you were indeed acting exactly like he thought you were, and that your motivations were exactly as laid out.

I would however like to thank you for your PR contribution to /tg/station. Have a secure day.