[RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

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Mario90900
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:57 pm
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[RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by Mario90900 » #563532

BYOND account: Mario90900
Character name: Jon Riker
Ban type: Note on account
Note length: Permanent
Note: MRP - Plays a lizard named Jon Riker with a background of a father who left and a mother who remarried to a human. When asked to consider appending a lizard last name requested to be shown where in the rules this was not allowed. When pointed out, then requested to appeal the ruling and speak to someone else. Have at least some aspect of our naming system involved with your character if you're going to have them with any cultural tie to their species. Playing further without this adjustment may result in appearance ban. You are welcome to appeal this on the forums.
Time note was placed: Sunday May 31st
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: I don't have this unfortunately.
Why you think you should have the note removed: What was written in the note is not what his backstory is. Simply put, he has no ties to any real meaningful lizard culture. Him, his sister, and his father left the planet Jon was born on when his mother died early in his life, moving to a peaceful human colony that pretty much only had these three as the only aliens. His father eventually remarried, but Jon mostly grew up around humans and in human culture. I gave notes on this when I was asked, since I was currently playing in the round and doing a bunch of surgery back to back, but this note is just false. I asked for the rules, because what I last heard was that it wasn't an enforced restriction, and even now when I go to the wiki page on lizards, I see "There are no enforced restrictions on a name a Lizardperson can use (sans standard name rules) meaning you do not have to adhere to the Adjective-The-Nouns system but you should." right under the Roleplay section. Given my backstory for the character, I don't think I should be required to change my name. People who move to other countries in real life frequently change their names, and that is similar to what I have done here.
Jack7D1
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by Jack7D1 » #563560

Hi! Round ID was 138473.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by bobbahbrown » #563561

For future reference, you can find the round IDs in which notes/bans are placed on AtlantaNed's Statbus.

https://sb.atlantaned.space/me/messages
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Vekter
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by Vekter » #563567

I feel like, on one hand, I can see where Rave's coming from on this. However, it's rare that any of our players even begin to come up with a backstory for their character. I'd be willing to allow it given that he at least went through that much effort.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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RaveRadbury
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by RaveRadbury » #563587

Hi, thanks for taking the time to appeal.

The rules/precedents in question are
Image
(Underlining is mine)

In regards to the page you are citing, unless I am mistaken it is one of our open pages, which would mean that any assertions it makes are ultimately shaky and definitely superseded by the moderated rules page, which "can be referenced in OOC issues, such as ban appeals, complaints, reports, etc.", which also says "This may not apply to the pages this page links to." confirming that other, non-moderated pages carry less weight under these circumstances.

I was on the fence about what to do with it given that you had a backstory in mind. The backstory you provided was "For RP reasons, his father left the planet with him after his mother died, and remarried to a human and lived among mostly humans. So it made sense to adopt more human-like names." I suggested an idea of appending a lizard name to the end of Jon Riker's name, the provided example being "Jon Riker-Teeka". Your response to this was that no one had spoken to you about it in the last few weeks and that given the RP backstory Jon should be exempt from the rules. You also requested to be shown what rule you were violating, which I provided. You then stated you wished to appeal my decision and speak to other staff about it, at which point I created the minor note so that you could engage the appeal process. During the course of the conversation I also expressed that the idea of having no cultural reference to their species in their name without being orphaned was a bit thin.

Ultimately this is a clear violation of Rule 3 Precedents as written. The name is a human name and not a lizard one, therefore it is not species appropriate. As far as I am concerned, any addition of a lizard name to Jon Riker would make it species appropriate. Having partially or mostly human names makes sense, but for gameplay and atmospheric reasons we require a bare minimum of signalling species through naming convention. There is also the issue of providing you with an exception without there being any way for you to demonstrate your character's backstory (such as med or personnel records) without having to IC explain it to everyone.

We're trying to have a higher standard on MRP. You are not the first player that has been asked to make an adjustment to your name for this new environment. I get that you have a backstory for the character that is responsible for his unique name. Unfortunately we do not have the systems in place for such concepts to function without being disruptive. I think that a second last name is a small and reasonable adjustment.

As for the mistake I made with your character being raised by their mother, apologies for misunderstanding the backstory. However, given that the actual backstory is Jon living with two other lizards his whole life, I think that further emphasizes the likelihood that he would have a species appropriate name. I will edit the note to better reflect the correct backstory.

EDIT: Thinking about it more, our policy is concerned with species appropriate and makes no considerations for backstory appropriate. Our system simply isn't nuanced enough for the kind of exception you'd like seen, which is more in-line with a DnD campaign where you are regularly playing with a small static group of people who aren't going to have issue with a DM's ruling, rather than servers that see traffic 24/7 with an administration team.


Given the nature of this note and the player's request to hear opinions from other staff, I welcome admins to weigh in on this.
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wesoda25
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by wesoda25 » #563597

Excessively OOC names fall under rule 3. Make a minimum effort to have your name fit in a setting involving a wacky space station in the future. A firstname lastname minimum is required for humans and felinids; other species may instead choose to use the default names assigned to them, such as those given through random names, or otherwise any name that is species-appropriate. Honorifics and nicknames are not allowed. Admins may get involved if your name is dumb and can approve or disallow names at their discretion while in-game.
May, not have to. They can still choose first-name last-name.
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by RaveRadbury » #563600

wesoda25 wrote:
Excessively OOC names fall under rule 3. Make a minimum effort to have your name fit in a setting involving a wacky space station in the future. A firstname lastname minimum is required for humans and felinids; other species may instead choose to use the default names assigned to them, such as those given through random names, or otherwise any name that is species-appropriate. Honorifics and nicknames are not allowed. Admins may get involved if your name is dumb and can approve or disallow names at their discretion while in-game.
May, not have to. They can still choose first-name last-name.
The usage of "may" here is in reference to the two options being provided as an alternative in light of the contingency of a non-human character. The choice that "may" provides here is the choice between a generated name and an otherwise species appropriate name. Some uses of may include preceding options, this one doesn't, it is only in regards to the following options. Were this meant to be a fully inclusive principle, the usage would be "may also", but is instead selective with "may instead".
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bandit
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by bandit » #563608

Speaking as an admin here, as invited:

I think this is fine. Naming policy has been quoted here, but the parts that have been emphasized miss the forest for the trees. A more accurate emphasis would be this:
Excessively OOC names fall under rule 3. Make a minimum effort to have your name fit in a setting involving a wacky space station in the future. A firstname lastname minimum is required for humans and felinids; other species may instead choose to use the default names assigned to them, such as those given through random names, or otherwise any name that is species-appropriate. Honorifics and nicknames are not allowed. Admins may get involved if your name is dumb and can approve or disallow names at their discretion while in-game.
Excessively OOC is defined as names which are intentionally hard to read/spell, references to in-game mechanics or OOC terminology, and any form of nonsensical/bad-faith name (ex. Adolf Hitler, FAGGOT PUNCHER, Poop Boy, xXrobustspaceman420Xx etc).
As should be clear, the spirit of the naming policy is about content, not syntax. The policy is very clear on what it is trying to prevent: OOC names, dumb names, names that would not fit in on a station. It is meant to curtail meme names, edgelord bullshit, lazy celebrity inserts, and the like. It is not meant to curtail a reasonable name someone might have that is the product of valid roleplay (i.e. not pulled out of one's ass to invent your character's long lineage of Himmler Dongcocks) and backstory.
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admin feedback pls
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bandit
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by bandit » #563619

Also as a point of clarification: "I've always used this name and no one had a problem until now" is not a defense against naming policy. The policy has changed a lot over the years, and also has not been enforced as consistently as it could or should be. However, this specific name falls well within the spirit of the rules as I see it.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by oranges » #563663

RaveRadbury wrote:Our system simply isn't nuanced enough for the kind of exception you'd like seen, which is more in-line with a DnD campaign where you are regularly playing with a small static group of people who aren't going to have issue with a DM's ruling, rather than servers that see traffic 24/7 with an administration team.
This will probably get deleted as peanut which is sad, but providing this nuance is supposed to be your job
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by NecromancerAnne » #563701

Admins can act on something they believe to be disruptive without prompt from a player messaging about it. We do not first need someone to report an issue to then act upon it, it is just that often things may be overlooked if not for that prompt. Some players choose to not speak up or ahelp even if they believe something is a problem, and often players sometimes need to be poked to even say anything, mostly because of a desire to not snitch or let it lie as is. This often can lead to a culture of complancy even though they know it is a problem and it is negatively affecting the round or their experience.

If nobody ahelped a situation in which you obviously broke the rules, and maybe in an egregious way, that does not nean we can't touch the issue. There shouldn't be negative reinforcement towards ahelping at all, but for some reason it exists and to the benefit of bad actors, so we are empowered to act as necessary.

This isn't to say Mario is a bad actor, and I highly doubt that is the case, but I am merely explaining that you shouldn't equate a lack of players prompting admin investigation to make something right. If it is very clear all involved were onboard, like a high stakes game of supermatter shard baseball tag, that's potentially a different story. But this isn't one of those situations and even then we can still take issue (like a chain supermatter shard detonation levelling the station due to how many people were bat into the shards).
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Re: [RaveRadbury] Mario90900 - Note Appeal

Post by Coconutwarrior97 » #563720

In general, as bandit has said, naming policy is more about ensuring names aren't too dumb/OOC. For Manuel that also means names will generally be more restrictive. In this case there is clear good faith intent behind the name, and it doesn't really detract from the MRP experience. So we're going to overrule Rave here and have him delete the note; you're free to continue using this name. Keep in mind these kind of things are going to be context sensitive; so this does not serve as an excuse to start having every lizard named Bobby Bob.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Overrule.
Phuzzylodgik: Overrule.
TWATICUS: Overrule.
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