/tg/Station 13

BYOND account: Thebleh
Character name: Douglas Wheeler
Ban type: Note
Note length: Permanent
Note reason: Suicided into the SM because "my pasta arrived." Was told not to suicide into the SM even if their pasta arrived.
Time ban was placed: 2020-06-03 09:23:45
Server you were playing on when banned: Bagil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 138651
Your side of the story: I was helping an engineer with setting up the SM and halfway through the process my food order arrived. I finished setting up the cooling loop and made sure it's all working properly, then I ran into it. A ghost asked me why I suicided and I answered that "my pasta arrived". A few seconds later I get a PM from bgobandit regarding SM suicides and how they are station sabotage. I explained that the SM cooling was set up and there's no risk to its integrity and I thought that was the end of it but then I discover this note was applied to my account.
Why you think you should be unbanned: This was neither self-antagging nor ignorance of rules/game mechanics. Running into a properly cooled SM is perfectly safe and the same as an emitter hitting it. This was 20 minutes into the round and I was in a non-head role (Atmos tech).

Denied, it has been a bannable offense (and this isn't even a ban, it's just a note) to suicide into the SM for as long as we have had the SM. If you want to leave the round, there are many ways to do that not involving sabotage and potentially fucking up the round for everyone else.

the rule exists for when people suicide on an unset SME, especially roundstart, which makes it start delaminate if no one turns on all the pipes in 5 minutes but this isnt the case (except if he is lying about it being set up).
suiciding on a sm when it has all the pipes set doesnt cause any problem lol

Heres a basic sm with no upgrades. just turnt on.




as you can see from the video. An sm with no upgrades only turned on can easily handle multiple people throwing themselves into it. Tossing yourself into an sm that just has the cooling turned on is not dangerous and wouldnt be sabotage.

Suiciding into the SM has many detrimental effects both on the supermatter integrity and everyone around it: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... er.dm#L865

So, instead of trying to min-max the exact amount of people that can suicide into the SM, under which conditions, why not just... not suicide into the SM? Nothing is requiring you to suicide into the SM. Nothing is stopping you from ghosting, or going AFK in a dorm, or even just closing the client. There is zero reason why you need to do this, except to create more work and/or screw up the round for everyone else.

(And to be clear, your being an atmos tech has nothing to do with this note. Had you done this as a command role, you would have done not one but two things wrong, i.e., suiciding into the SM and suiciding as a head of staff.)

For those who still don't believe me that this has always been a bannable offense, here is Kor saying as much in 2017: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... sm#p290067

This policy thread is talking about suiciding into the SM, causing it to delam. this SM didnt delam and was perfectly safe so it doesnt apply.

bandit wrote:Suiciding into the SM has many detrimental effects both on the supermatter integrity and everyone around it: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... er.dm#L865

the code lines here just tell the sm to add 200 matter power (something that happens always when something touches the sm, its not dangerous at all with the cooling loop setup since emitters are shooting it all the time) and to irradiate mobs in a TWO radius a bunch
this is not detrimental to the sm and its not detrimental to anyone that isnt sitting right next to the supermatter
edit: it adds 200 matter power to the usual 200 matter power from being hit, so its 400 power added, still not a big deal

As a reminder, peanut policy still applies, as it has for literally half a decade now.

Bringing up precedent, or the code, or other factual matters covered by exemptions is good, getting into argumentation about the precedent or the note is bad.

As always it's up to the headmins to overrule if they feel that bandit has erred. Please and thank you no more peanut posting.

More precedent:

1. Ausops, a former headmin, upholding a ban for suiciding into the supermatter; the thread is about a drone, but Ausops' reply is not specific to drone laws, but rather states that "it was about griefing engineering." It also does not involve whether the SM delaminated or not, but rather the act of suiciding into it: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... de#p245244

2. The wiki entry on the supermatter, at the very top, in bold and highlighted: "Do NOT run into the Supermatter to commit suicide! You will be banned." Again, does not specify anything about roundstart, or delamination, but is an unambiguous statement not to do it: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_the_Supermatter

3. The administrator forums' guide to note severity, written in 2018 by CitrusGender, a former headmin. You will note the common thread of not giving a fuck about whether it delaminates or what time of round it is:

Minor severity - OOC in IC, IC in OOC, Running into the supermatter, suiciding after being converted into antag (ussually for stuff that would usually only be a note or would net a ban less than half a day)

.

(I don't remember what severity I put down, but if the note is not minor severity, I am happy to change it to minor severity.)

As should be abundantly clear by this point, I am enforcing the policy that currently exists. If you don't like the policy, then try to get it changed. But this is and always has been policy.

bandit wrote:2. The wiki entry on the supermatter, at the very top, in bold and highlighted: "Do NOT run into the Supermatter to commit suicide! You will be banned." Again, does not specify anything about roundstart, or delamination, but is an unambiguous statement not to do it: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_the_Supermatter

This is an unmoderated wiki page.

bandit wrote:As should be abundantly clear by this point, I am enforcing the policy that currently exists. If you don't like the policy, then try to get it changed. But this is and always has been policy.

See https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules and https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings
Our rules and headmin rulings are laid out in a format that is meant to be accessible to the players and serve to guide them into legal play. All of the precedent and examples you are linking here are not easily accessible to the players, and are specifically not linked on the headmin rulings page where policy and headmin rulings are kept for easy player reference.

bandit wrote:More precedent:

1. Ausops, a former headmin, upholding a ban for suiciding into the supermatter; the thread is about a drone, but Ausops' reply is not specific to drone laws, but rather states that "it was about griefing engineering." It also does not involve whether the SM delaminated or not, but rather the act of suiciding into it: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... de#p245244
.

I would like to add that in this ban you cited that yes indeed it wasnt about him delaming the SM via suicide but the action of him doing so, but the main purpose of the ban wasn't about SM suicide (although ausops can feel free to correct me on this if he sees this thread). The full ban reason in that case was "You can go sort this out on the forums. Deleted for actual mass greytiding at roundstart as a non-antag, proceeded to take a drone role and walk into the supermatter on deltastation. This is on top of previous notes." and from reading the logs for the round, and previous rounds leading to that in which he was banned, as well as that ban appeal, it is clear that this wasnt a matter of him suiciding in SM and thus being banned, it was a matter of him griefing sec and attacking random people as you can see if you check that rounds logs, which was followed by him, after being killed, being a drone and going to sm suicide in an attempt to grief engineering. You can also see that ausops states that player had 16 previous notes and was in general a shitter and from the way the appeal reads it looks like he was adding the SM suicide as not something that was wrong, but was something he did to try to be shitty and get back at people after he died.

Id also like to point out that ausops has stated that notes that paint players in an unfair light can be appealed and reworded as this wasnt the case of a player randomly SM suiciding and then going to eat pasta, it was a case of a player setting up the SM so that it was safe and then having to leave so he chose to suicide into the SM which had absolutely no impact on any other players rounds

We understand why bandit came to this decision, as it was reflected by policy which was in place for quite some time. Said policy has undergone a mostly unspoken change in recent years, which we have now put in writing here: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=26819 .
If someone suicides into the SM, and no delam/harmful effect follows as a result, it is not rule breaking. This note is overturned and will be removed shortly.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Overturn.
Phuzzylodgik: Overturn.
TWATICUS: Overturn.