[Cedarbridge] Drovidi Corv - The Big Bad Validhunter

[drovidi]

Byond account and character name: Drovidi Corv/Terry Drovidi
Banning admin: Cedarbridge
Ban Type: Vanilla
Ban reason and length: Dayban. "Non-antag murder. Skipped escalation to spear a guy to death for hitting the chemistry windows."
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2:30ish EST
Your side of the story:
I was testing in medicine one long cult round pretty uneventfully, after being involuntarily assigned to Chemist. I ignored most of the drama going on in medical until an unknown wielding a spear started breaking through the south chemistry window going into medical. I approached the door, and he ran off, but was still in medical, so I called for security. Security, presumably wasn't available, because it had been a rather heated cult round. I went back to chemistry, and the unknown (later revealed to be Rob Nordley) came back again, so, this time, I went after him to get him out of medical. I disarmed him, roughed him up along with some of medical, and left him out of the medbay, telling him to get lost. At that time, more or less exactly, River used a talisman on one of the guys who'd been helping me get him out of medical, so I'd planned to turn my attention to him, but as soon as Rob got up, he pushed me down and immediately went back at me with the spear. I punched him, took his spear, and hit him once more to bring him to critical, then used the spear to help the Chaplain, who was being attacked by cultists. Went back to making medicine after the fight, got bwoinked, and the rest is history. My arguments to Cedarbridge, as well as a good picture of what went on, are in the logs. Note that there are were two unknowns in the fight, one being Rob and one being someone else whom I don't remember.


Why you think you should be unbanned:
The encounter between me and rob was proper escalation. He ran away once, and I called security. He came back, and I disarmed him, injured him, and removed him from medical. A large fight with antagonists started, and during that fight, while I was trying to help defend the Chaplain, after I had removed him from medical and asked him to leave, he attacked me. I didn't miss any opportunity to get rid of him without removing him from the round, save having prepared sedatives or lube in advance. I would have cloned him if all were ideal- security there to pick him up, and an excess of medical resources, but there was a backlog at the cloner, untreated injured, and a very busy/mostly dead security force. His actions - mainly attacking me during a fight with cultists, but also including repeatedly and unapologeticly trying to break into chemistry with a spear as an unknown, gave me some reason to think that he was a cultist, so I didn't make any attempts to clone him.

Unabridged Logs (I feel like there should be a better way to do this.)
I understand that pulling isn't logged, so I'd appreciate if Maximus could confirm that we really were trying to kick Rob out of the medbay, which Cedar seemed to doubt, and that the more lethal stuff came only after we tried nonlethally and even nonharmfully to get rid of him. The logs do confirm, though, that he wasn't unconscious between the fight with the cultists as Cedarbridge insisted, but was attacking me during the fight with the cultists, that I didn't 'disarm him after he got on a table,' but after he had been wailing on the windows for a good long while.

As an aside, I felt that the banning admin was rather inflexible, and seemed to be intent on either getting a mea culpa or giving a ban. He seemed convinced that I'd gone out looking for trouble and was a bad person, and it felt rather like his questions were used as ammunition for reasons to apply a ban. He didn't seem to honestly consider my answers to those questions, and I suspect he ignored my suggestion that he talk to a witness. I don't know exactly how the procedure works on appeals with regards to who reviews what, but I'd appreciate for someone other than Cedarbridge to decide this.

[cedarbridge]

(board ate my reply, trying again)
[02:14:11]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) disarmed Unknown </font>

This is the first logged contact between you and Rob. Rob was wearing a mask but that really didn't stop you from knowing who he was via reference.

[02:14:22]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) attacked Unknown with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>

Here (11 seconds later) you attack him with the spear. Worth noting that there are no logs of Rob attacking you in these 11 seconds between you first disarming him and this first use of a weapon.

What this shows me is a one-dimensional escalation. That is, you escalated and he received it. Were this somehow reciprocal, he would have done something to provoke the use of weapons or actual life-threatening injuries. He didn't.

Around this time you throw him into the medbay waiting area and cultists attack the chaplain.

As soon as the chaplain falls under attack, this happens:

[02:14:30]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) attacked Unknown() with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>
[02:14:30]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Maximus Commodus() disarmed Unknown(fr05tbyt3) </font>
[02:14:34]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Unknown() disarmed Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) </font>
[02:14:37]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) punched Unknown( </font>
[02:14:37]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Unknown() attacked Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) with spear(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>
Where upon you attack him again, he takes his spear back and stabs you with it once.

Cultists attack the chaplain, you decide the priority is on sorting out this guy you just threw out.
[02:14:40]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) attacked Unknown() with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>
[02:14:41]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) attacked Unknown() with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>
[02:14:42]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) attacked Unknown() with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>

The fight goes on, and you decide to attack the actual cultists (the ones actually attacking the chaplain) and then
[02:16:15]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) attacked Unknown() with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>
[02:16:16]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) attacked Unknown() with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>
[02:16:17]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Terry Drovidi(drovidicorv) attacked Unknown() with spear (Wielded)(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE)</font>
you go back to finish him off.

So, when asked about this your response was 1) He was a cultist 2) He attempted to break into chemistry.

1) When asked the evidence of him being a cultist your response was "uh, he was in the area when antags attacked the chaplain" which proves literally nothing but that he was where you put him after throwing him into the medbay waiting area.
2) The sum total damage to chemistry was a chipped window which (as you stated) was avenged by two chemists jumping him and throwing him out into the hallway. He never entered chemistry proper. Medbay is also a general population area. The front doors being medical locked is mostly a formality so pretty much anyone can enter and leave medbay as they need or please. That's not to say that people don't get thrown out, but its not exactly exclusive territory either.

This was open and shut. You killed a guy for hitting your window (not even enough times to actually break the thing) and then having the awesome luck of being present when a fight started in medbay with cultists attacking. All points of escalation were yours.
First non-lethal contact: Yours. Disarming to take the spear the first time.
First lethal: Also yours stabbing him with the spear.
He responded by disarming once in the face of two chemists attacking him to throw him out and accomplished little.
First blood: You again. The only person involved that actually attacked with the intent of hurting or killing anyone.

He damaged your window, you killed him for it. That's awful escalation and that's what netted you the ban. 24 hours is standard for non-antag murder.

As an aside, I felt that the banning admin was rather inflexible, and seemed to be intent on either getting a mea culpa or giving a ban. He seemed convinced that I'd gone out looking for trouble and was a bad person, and it felt rather like his questions were used as ammunition for reasons to apply a ban. He didn't seem to honestly consider my answers to those questions, and I suspect he ignored my suggestion that he talk to a witness. I don't know exactly how the procedure works on appeals with regards to who reviews what, but I'd appreciate for someone other than Cedarbridge to decide this.

As the logs show, the case was open and shut. He hit your window a couple times, you killed him with a spear. The rules are clear that non-antag murder is punishable via 24hr ban. Its as much my job to investigate the cases as ensure the parties involve know the nature of the situation and any administrative intervention required. As you broke the rule and seemed obstinate about it I discussed the matter in detail with you to ensure you understood that you had broken the rules and understood why this was bad. You remained defiant so I applied the ban rather than go in circles. As also stated, your story changed at least twice while I spoke with you and this also reduced my motivation to continue the conversation. I was inflexible because the logs and story given to me by both sides painted a picture that reflects reality. I didn't question your witness because it didn't affect the issue one way or another. I could assume he would tell me what you said he would and it would be the same as if he said nothing at all. You threw him out, he stole his spear back and jabbed you for stealing it from him, you took the cult attacking as a good enough excuse to kill him. It wasn't, here we are.

[drovidi]

Rob was wearing a mask but that really didn't stop you from knowing who he was via reference.

I don't know why this is relevant or what you mean by reference, but I had no idea who Rob was. I didn't know for sure who you were even talking about until I checked by taking the unknown's mask off.

The point of the escalation was that this guy kept returning to break into chemistry. I didn't have any less-lethal ways to remove him. The alternative was letting this masked unknown assistant who'd broken into medical through the window make himself some space lube and chloral during a cult round. I don't know whether you bothered to look at my logs, which have much more information than you're referring to, such as the fact that when Rob went down, I told him to leave. I went back in, and as soon as his stun was over he went at me with his spear. My escalation went from chasing Rob off, to calling Security, to physically removing him, to killing him. I would ask, Cedar, what you would suggest doing in that situation.

(not even enough times to actually break the thing)

I suppose I should've waited for the masked unknown to break all the way into chemistry to make sure he meant it?

As also stated, your story changed at least twice while I spoke with you and this also reduced my motivation to continue the conversation.

Our conversation's in the logs, and my story did no such thing. It was a chaotic fight, and I wasn't sure whom you were talking about right off the bat, so I tried to give you some context while I figured out exactly what you were asking about, and pieced together exactly what happened.

He damaged your window, you killed him for it. That's awful escalation and that's what netted you the ban. 24 hours is standard for non-antag murder.

He didn't swing by and toss a wrench at the window. He repeatedly went to chemistry and tried to break through the window with a spear, after breaking through the Western window into medical, as a masked unknown, during a cult round. As for a dayban being standard for this, I'll object with a precedent from another case, in which the admins decided someone shouldn't be banned for killing an intruder in a much less trying situation. Mind, killed an intruder, straight up, like you incorrectly claimed I did multiple times in our discussion. No trying to pull him out of the department, no telling him to leave, no call for security.

What? It's always been okay to defend your departments against people breaking in. There shouldn't be any problem if they intend to cause trouble...

The punishment in that situation was reduced from a tempban to a note, and was only a note on the basis that the defending player had nonlethal ways to remove the intruder, which I did not.

[cedarbridge]

Rob was wearing a mask but that really didn't stop you from knowing who he was via reference.

I don't know why this is relevant or what you mean by reference, but I had no idea who Rob was. I didn't know for sure who you were even talking about until I checked by taking the unknown's mask off.

The point of the escalation was that this guy kept returning to break into chemistry. I didn't have any less-lethal ways to remove him. The alternative was letting this masked unknown assistant who'd broken into medical through the window make himself some space lube and chloral during a cult round. I don't know whether you bothered to look at my logs, which have much more information than you're referring to, such as the fact that when Rob went down, I told him to leave. I went back in, and as soon as his stun was over he went at me with his spear. My escalation went from chasing Rob off, to calling Security, to physically removing him, to killing him. I would ask, Cedar, what you would suggest doing in that situation.

1) The observation is simply that. You would be able to know it was the same guy with and without the mask. Its not a terribly important detail of my post so there's no sense lampshading it.
2) I've never said that you do not have a right to defend your department under a legitimate threat. In this case, there was no legitimate threat. He was not in chemistry when you killed him. He wasn't even attempting to enter chemistry when you killed him. You said yourself. You removed him and threw him into the medbay lobby. All of medbay is not your domain that needs protecting.
3) Again, all escalation was unilateral. In the space of 11 seconds you went from disarming to goring with a spear with zero equivalent response from him until you'd actually started using a weapon on him.
4) What I would have done is minimally relevant in this case, however, you admitted that you were aware of non-lethal means of removing him and keeping him removed and chose to just gore him to death with a spear anyway. If this guy was really "attacking" your department as you claim then he definitely wouldn't have settled for hitting you once with his spear (that he had to fight you to get) and calling it a day. All aggression in this case was yours and it entirely boils down to your overzealotry in "defending" a department that wasn't under attack and exaggerating a threat that wasn't.

(not even enough times to actually break the thing)

I suppose I should've waited for the masked unknown to break all the way into chemistry to make sure he meant it?

Alternatively, you could have thrown him out without goring him into crit and left him there instead of using an attack by cultists (unrelated entirely and never participated in by the guy in question) as an excuse to finish him off. The logs and what I saw of that fight show you tackling, stabbing and throwing Rob out of medbay, and then stabbing him at the start of the cult altercation AND after. This entire episode, he attacked you similarly 2 (two whole stabs several minutes apart.)

As also stated, your story changed at least twice while I spoke with you and this also reduced my motivation to continue the conversation.

Our conversation's in the logs, and my story did no such thing. It was a chaotic fight, and I wasn't sure whom you were talking about right off the bat, so I tried to give you some context while I figured out exactly what you were asking about, and pieced together exactly what happened.

You told me, in order. "I did it because he was a cultist." "Because he was breaking into chem." "Because I wanted him to leave medbay." When the first was explained to be false you switched to the second. When the second didn't align to the time line you switched to the third. The third does not present a case for "defending" your department from somebody who at that point was 1) roughed up by two armed chemists and 2 disarmed of their only weapon and had only put up token resistance to that beating in the first place.

He damaged your window, you killed him for it. That's awful escalation and that's what netted you the ban. 24 hours is standard for non-antag murder.

He didn't swing by and toss a wrench at the window. He repeatedly went to chemistry and tried to break through the window with a spear, after breaking through the Western window into medical, as a masked unknown, during a cult round. As for a dayban being standard for this, I'll object with a precedent from another case, in which the admins decided someone shouldn't be banned for killing an intruder in a much less trying situation. Mind, killed an intruder, straight up, like you incorrectly claimed I did multiple times in our discussion. No trying to pull him out of the department, no telling him to leave, no call for security.

Except that these cases are not similar.
1) The CE was alone.
2) The clown had been thrown out several times and damage repaired each time.
3) The clown voluntarily returned to the beating each time.

In this case,
1) Rob was beaten by two chemists for hitting the window.
2) The time-to-lethal escalation was 11 whole seconds and was not punctuated by Rob attacking you, or really doing anything but get hit.
3) You went to him and not he other way around. Again, he didn't enter chemistry and attack you.

If you're going to compare the cases, I suggest you read the one you're referencing more carefully as their timelines are not at all similar.

What? It's always been okay to defend your departments against people breaking in. There shouldn't be any problem if they intend to cause trouble...

The punishment in that situation was reduced from a tempban to a note, and was only a note on the basis that the defending player had nonlethal ways to remove the intruder, which I did not.

You weren't defending your departemnt. That's the entire point. You threw a guy out who hit your window and when you were done throwing him out (after jumpting straight to goring him with his own spear) you finished him off. It was pointless and senseless murder and you tried to excuse it because antags showed up and attacked somebody unrelated at the time you were throwing him out. That's the entire point. You HAD thrown him out but that wasn't good enough so you stabbed him down as the fight started and then went back to finish him off after the fight was over. When he had posed no such threat to you. That is why this escalation was terrible and why I referred to it as valid seeking behavior.

[drovidi]

He wasn't even attempting to enter chemistry when you killed him.

He was attacking me while the Chaplain was being killed when I killed him.

you admitted that you were aware of non-lethal means of removing him and keeping him removed

I stated clearly that I WAS NOT. I said I was aware of ways I COULD HAVE removed him if I had prepared for it previously, which I did not.

Alternatively, you could have thrown him out without goring him into crit

I DID throw him out without goring him into crit. I COULD NOT have removed him without doing as much damage as I did because he WAS NOT LEAVING while he was up and I DID NOT HAVE any nonlethal weapons around.

it entirely boils down to your overzealotry in "defending" a department that wasn't under attack and exaggerating a threat that wasn't.

I've stated objectively and without exaggeration what the guy did. He persistently came to chemistry and attacked the window separating chemistry from medical, silently and with his ID hidden. The theat was an armed unknown trying to break into a place where once can make some of the most dangerous things on the station.

If this guy was really "attacking" your department as you claim then he definitely wouldn't have settled for hitting you once with his spear (that he had to fight you to get) and calling it a day.

Except that he didn't hit me once with a spear and call it a day. He was trying persistently to break into chemistry, and the only reason he didn't hit me a second time was because I disarmed the spear back from him. If he'd taken the spear and left, I'd have moved on.

You told me, in order. "I did it because he was a cultist." "Because he was breaking into chem." "Because I wanted him to leave medbay." When the first was explained to be false you switched to the second. When the second didn't align to the time line you switched to the third. The third does not present a case for "defending" your department from somebody who at that point was 1) roughed up by two armed chemists and 2 disarmed of their only weapon and had only put up token resistance to that beating in the first place.

I told you all of the things that went into my decisions to leave this one person dead. There were multiple factors that went into that decision. Is that so hard to grasp?
I would also like to point out that the other person who helped me throw him out was not the other chemist, who was braindead and a cultist, and who died in the fight, as the logs show.

1) The CE was alone.
2) The clown had been thrown out several times and damage repaired each time.
3) The clown voluntarily returned to the beating each time.

I'm not sure you're looking at the case I posted. The one I posted was a fight between an assistant and a roboticist.

You threw a guy out who hit your window and when you were done throwing him out (after jumpting straight to goring him with his own spear) you finished him off.

He wasn't just "hitting my window", he was making a sustained attempt to break through it, which was nearly successful. I went back to work after calling security the first time he tried to smash the window, which lasted a very short time before he came back to keep breaking the windows.
I didn't go out of my way to hit him after I'd gotten him out of the medbay. The only reason it "wasn't good enough" was because it wasn't enough to prevent the guy from coming back to the medbay and attacking me with his spear.

[Ikarrus]

The matter has been taken into #banbus and I'd thus like to ask Cedarbridge to lift this ban.

If there are any further issues, or if the ban has not been lifted in a reasonable amount of time, send me a PM.