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[dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:13 pm
by ambrosia
BYOND account: ikrarkjr
Character name: Gorilla (number unknown)
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 10 days
Ban reason: Rule 1: Repeated IC issues, very confrontational in ahelps. Appeal on the forums if you want to.
Time ban was placed: 2020-08-27 20:33:20
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 145141
Your side of the story: I was a gorilla, who was made security by captain due to no sec at the time. I heard multiple reports about something of a golem being an ass or suspicious, I think just two messages. One of them told me to beat up a golem. I see a cardboard golem roaming the halls, and he is wearing the entire gear, including ID, of the warden (who I barely saw, so they must've arrived and rather quickly been murdered, as I would assume they wouldn't suicide after arriving) I beat him up into crit, due to several reasons. 1. They are a golem, not a crew member. 2. They clearly commit a crime, and possibly even murder. 3. They were definitely armed. 4. I am a gorilla.
After being crit he naturally died, pretty fast, and golems can't really be healed easily. Then after he died, I brought his body and belongings to the warden's office, as it had the warden's gear. The admin mentioned to me about me not bringing his body to medbay, but I did not see a point, as golems can't be defibbed as they don't have a heart, and he was specifically a cardboard golem, so he would likely have a shell to return his spirit to anyways.
So that is what happened for the "IC issues" part, as as for the "very confrontational in ahelps" part:
I don't know what this exactly means in terms of banning, I did not insult him, or say ridiculous claims nor lie, seems to be a personal qualm, as most of my notes in the past 6 months are from him.
Why you think you should be unbanned: Firstly I don't think I should've been banned at what seems to be reasonable IC reaction to a noncrew, but besides that, I was banned for 10 days, for Rule 1. I've not randomly murdered people before, no notes ever at least on Manuel, and not on Manuel it was forever ago. In addition to that, rule 1 precedent 1 says "Random murders are not acceptable nor is the killing of other players for poor or little reasoning such as ‘My character is insane’. Each unjustified kill is normally met with one 24 ban." yet I was banned for my first offense of 'random murder', for 10 days, and the murder MAY have been 'not justified' but definitely not 'little reason'. So in summary here, the ban doesn't make sense in any way you cut it.

Finally, I know this is off the script but I'd like to say a few things:
1. I wasn't able to copy paste the round ID, timestamp, and reason. So if there is a typo despite me double-checking, that's why.
2. I can't see my notes, so what I said is based off memory, not a lie. It SHOULD be correct, so this line I'm saying here should hopefully be pointless to say.
3. Yes, I am aware it says "*repeated* IC issues", however the notes i had in the past were solely related to yelling at people on comms, to which I was given two notes and this ban, by the same admin. I did not murder anyone regarding those notes.

Re: [dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:04 pm
by Dreathtil
I am very glad you made this appeal!

To start off with the ban reason is not for the round, but as a whole. The banned premise here is. Rule 1. Repeated IC issues and very confrontational in ahelps.
So lets start from the beginning here. Since I've been an AC and now Trialmin you have repeatedly come up as a point of contention for issues, and while a good amount of them have been for initially valid reasons. Further investigation and continued discussion with you has been considerably hostile. So lets begin with the first ahelp I had to deal with while still in my AC phase (And by proxy Vekter who was involved)

Round 143715 (While I was still AC)
Since I have alot to Ctrl-C alot. While I while be shortening Vekters Ahelp. but my own ahelp history I will retain in full I myself
Code: Select all
[2020-08-07 10:11:04.334] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #1: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): Is a doctor allowed to keep me permanently unconscious for attacking him? After he attacked me first, for me using telebaton on a person who kept trying to kill themselves
[2020-08-07 10:11:19.556] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vekter/(Gilbert Grissom)->Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): It's not great? Who's got you slept?

It is at this point that Vekter investigates and resolves the issue but starts having ss13 related problems and can be seen in the logs logging off, logging in. And the issue turns into you wanting to go back in as a golem that was slaved to you. Vekter finally returns and makes a verdict you were personally unhappy with, but I'm not to challenge. It also important to note that at this point during Vekter's Ahelp you have ghosted while Hates-The-Lizard had woken you up from anesthetic
Code: Select all
[2020-08-07 10:39:31.723] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vekter/(Cardboard Golem (197))->Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): I can't get someone to fill your shell for you. I already made my ruling, if you don't agree with it you're free to file a complaint on the forums.

Now I take over at Vekter's request
Code: Select all
ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #3: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): I was actually going to say something else to you, before you went offline and came back, the we were talking#I asked the AI to help me when I was being attacked by the doctor, and I could see where it was looking with the AI multitool#It came in and looked, after i asked for help, while the doctor had my baton and was hitting me with it#The AI has asimov laws yet never tried at all to help me, and additionally knew I had the nuke disc (As the AI personally gave it to me) and just let whoever grabbed my bag have the nuke disc#And, lastly, let the doctor keep me chained and knocked out for a long ass time, never trying to stop him either#He was on asimov laws the whole time and I sure am human
[2020-08-07 10:46:40.213] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): New Ticket so I'm taking over. Any further judgements are on my responsibility. I am not going to challenge anything Vekter has already stated. So on that note. The AI did try to help you. They set Hates to Arrest and Sent Beepsky. But there was also a Human involved, Syd and Tyson. And Technically Hates is still set to arrest.
[2020-08-07 10:49:18.946] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): You were not harmed at all in the altercation as well technically. Them keeping you under anesthetic and careful watch did not constitute you being killed or harmed. Albeit Vekter's statement is correct that they needed to do something with you other then keep you knocked out forever.
[2020-08-07 10:51:36.030] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): And why did that AI take the medical doctors word over mine, with me asking for help first and him hitting me with my own baton?#The AI had no proof I commit any crimes nor was a traitor#In fact having proof I was assaulted in medbay
[2020-08-07 10:54:17.016] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): Then even though you are no longer able to ask it, it sounds like an IC issue at hand. Maybe if you were still in your body. You could ask the AI why? In an observational view. Even if it's One Human, One Non-human, the testimonial evidence is higher against you.
[2020-08-07 10:54:39.293] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): Ask them why while unconscious for 10 minutes straight?
[2020-08-07 10:54:54.141] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): With no radio, as it was immediately stripped off me
[2020-08-07 10:56:53.596] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): Well the issue of you being perma knocked unconscious "was" resolved. After you ghosted and Vekter fully resolved that issue. You are no longer unconscious. In all fairness you had the ability to ask your "oppressors" but you ruined that chance
[2020-08-07 10:57:40.853] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): Yeah too bad by the time he came back they already killed my SSD body huh
[2020-08-07 11:07:59.071] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): What can I say? That the Catatonic Body that isn't revivable. That just tried to start a fight. Had Carp, was aggressive, was killed? To my understanding you Ghosted. Then they took you off anesthetic. You may have gotten too impatient. You ahelped to resolve the issue but ghosted.
[2020-08-07 11:08:35.929] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): I ghosted to get into a golem shell which I told you about when you said he was having technical problems
[2020-08-07 11:09:35.862] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose): I've been here the whole time. No you ghosted during the Ahelp.
[2020-08-07 11:10:01.984] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): I didnt say I didnt #I said I ghosted to enter the golem shell, and made sure I was allowed to before I did
[2020-08-07 11:10:28.021] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Ikrarkjr/(Ambrosia Rose)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): To which he said "Hold on a sec" and then disappeared, so I had to wait


At this point I just closed the ticket (at Vekter's agreement as well)
Now lets move to a middle point where after a few incidents, that I admit I may not of handled the best on the technical side but still I had observed your repeat crude and selfish behavior that would lead to ahelps that you yourself would get confrontational in (At request I can post/go digging for the rounds in question) I personally approached peers and Headmins for opinions on the case as a whole. And I should stress you were not noted for anything that wasn't some already
Round 144609
Image
During this round you had acted very well intolerably asking execution of staff heads due to a mishap in your department, and after 3 hours command opted to remove your tongue (not round remove or kill you but remove your tongue) And ahelped an IC issue. I tried to resolve things peacefully. But it was apparent to me that no answer would satisfy you.

Other Rounds that while I can post ticket information from on request but due to posting constraint's and to keep things tidy would rather avoid. As such I will Give round descriptions followed by ahelp context

144525
Started off by naming their Character "Special Needs Moth" Noted and asked for name change. Given a legitmate ahelp that someone was rule 1 breaking, but coming off as extremely aggressive, and was made it hard to negotiate while trying to investigate issue
Ticket Opened by ikrarkjr. 9 days ago. admins giving permission to violate rule 1 is kinda cringe


144685
Observed their behaviour with a Ticket handled by JusticeGoat. All of it centered around horrible IC handling of an undercover detective. Nobody was noted for the round and it was all closed/resolved as IC.

145089
Involved in 2 ahelp tickets regarding being a dick and shoving CMO into space as a non-antag (Even though they were in a hardsuit, still dick move) And taking the Top-Secret Folder, for no reason, or as a prank. I saw multiple logs and viewpoints pointing in all directions. Noted for the IC issue.

And Lastly
145141
A bwoink chain investigation that got started because I was asking for some perspective. You got defensive, and quote Policy Discussion at me (For Lavaland Free Golems) when it was a Slaved Xenobio Golem and while I can apologize on this ticket that I may have appeared as passive aggressive I was stating that I did not ask for. I decided to swing the hammer that I could have swung long ago. It ended with
Reply from dreathtil to ikrarkjr. 3 hours ago. I didn't want to have to do this but. Appeal on the forums. Interacting with you has been very unpleasent. You take everything very personally, and act pretty crude IC, and get very confrontational in ahelps. I've had alot of patience with you as a player.


So you misunderstand. The round here is not the whole issue. Your repeated confrontational behaviour is the issue. Cause I and other Admin's genuinely saw certain improvements from you during your time on Manuel from getting along with more of the regular players and interacting more peacefully with other people (albeit a not great sense of escalation). And I hope you can come back in 10 days and show more improvement. And I hope this explains alot to you.

But as it stands Don't Rule 1 me. I will not change my decision on the 10 day ban

Re: [dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:43 pm
by Vekter
I'd like to back up Dreathil's notion here about our interactions with Ikrarkjr. He generally tends to be very difficult to deal with in adminhelps and could stand to be significantly less confrontational.

Re: [dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:53 pm
by ambrosia
Okay...look, upon reading those logs, long after it happened, I can definitely see how I could be seen as aggressive, and feel bad about it.
The thing... that in the majority of the tickets you mentioned, *I* was the one who was ahelping. Cause something happened that I felt was unjustified and annoyed or upset me enough to ahelp it instead of just ignore it.
This matters, because as an admin you didn't really get to interact with me, except in ahelps, you know? But yet these were the moments I was the most tense, too.
This may kind of come as a surprise, but I didn't really THINK about it. Like, I was the one being unjustly treated in game, being the one who ahelped, so it kind of lapsed my mind to not be abrasive.
Now I'm not excusing anything here, or using this as a trump card, but I have some issues irl. Not like, being retarded or autistic, but with emotions.
I do feel genuinely bad reading those back, because having completely forgotten the interaction and event makes me read it as if *me* isn't actually *me*, making me uncalloused towards what I said.

Being this as it may, I don't think you would, or could, trust me to honestly just go "I'll be better" and be unbanned, so I have another idea instead, to make this actually matter.
Instead of being banned, one month probation, with a temporary big note that says if I push the line too much, I get banned for a month, no appeals
I honestly can't say for myself that I'd be FULLY "reformed", as I didnt intent to look like that much of an asshole originally when I did, but I can say that I will do significantly better.
Also, you don't have to give it to me, but I'd prefer one warning for the probation too if you decide to do it, as it would be *one month long*, and I feel like there might be an event where after two weeks I get too hot headed over something really aggravating and...yeah. Although, the warning can count mid ahelp, as in if I get warned but yet continue, banned.

I wouldn't offer this if I didnt think it would be both better for me and the server
It benefits me by, obviously, not being banned
But it benefits the server, by that if i cannot be on my good behavior im gone for even longer than initially intended, by about 3 times

What do you say?

Re: [dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:58 pm
by Sylphet
I'd like to add that while it's true that there have been serious behavioural problems that I've experienced from them both as an admin, and while playing deadminned (I won't be naming specifics, because I don't think it helps anyone here) and they are very, very confrontational in ahelps - I do feel that they're genuinely (if slowly) improving as a player and integrating into the community. This ban is needed and I hope it sends a clear message that they are not currently meeting the standards of behaviour that we expect - but I also hope to see them take this, learn from this, and continue to improve, because I know that they have it in them.

Re: [dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:03 am
by Ivuchnu
If it matters anything, Ikrarkjr was Gorilla (809) in 145141 and golem that complained about being killed by gorilla was same player who first suicided as warden and then took stuff off their suicide corpse while joining golems who generally been seen as tiding. https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... /game.html

Re: [dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:05 am
by ambrosia
Ivuchnu wrote:If it matters anything, Ikrarkjr was Gorilla (809) in 145141 and golem that complained about being killed by gorilla was same player who first suicided as warden and then took stuff off their suicide corpse while joining golems who generally been seen as tiding. https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... /game.html


WOW
Just
I know this doesn't really change anything but holy shit

EDIT: Wait, actually, if this is true, I'm VERY surprised this went unnoticed, until being brought up by a player...

Re: [dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:13 am
by Dreathtil
I'm very glad to see your followup. And moving forward it's good to see your side of things. But I remain firm on my standpoint after, even reading your follow up. I will not change my decision on the 10 day ban
I hope you can understand and get some closure from this. Pick up and play some other video games if you can. Take a break from 2dspessmens. Take some time to review. And come back. I believe you can improve.

Re: [dreathtil] ikrarkjr - IC ban

PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:25 am
by ambrosia
I genuinely believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my suggestion would be better, as it would be forcing me to do what I should do, and then after it ends I will fall into the habit of what I've been doing
But I won't argue with you about it
I just hope you change your mind

EDIT: "I will fall into the habit of what I've been doing" *in the past month*