[<FatalX1>] Flopodil - noted for doing basic detective work as sec

[BrotherCrow]

BYOND account: VerifyVenuzY
Character name: Flopodil
Ban type: Note
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: Stunned and arrested someone because they had minor bruise damage, pale skin (from being an albino), and a gas mask, about 5 minutes into the round, said person was a cultist but I don't think probable cause stretches quite that far, especially when you had no idea there was a cult at that point
Time ban was placed: 2020-08-29 16:32:09
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Your side of the story: I was playing Sec officer and early on into the round i got suspicious of cult because of multiple people with gas masks wandering the halls, i even mentioned it on the sec chat. I eventually spotted someone with the taletell signs of cult in the hopline and arrested them, ill try to go through each point in detail. 1. light bruising from potential spell prepping 2. Pale skin (i want to stress i had no idea albino people show up as pale skin when examining them, it was just bad luck for them) from blood loss from rune and spell prepping. 3 Gas mask over the face, classic. 4. the robo cultie was in hopline, why does a robo require additional access on a full shift? This was not enough probable cause for the admin involved and hence the note, fatal even says in the note he is not sure it was probable cause. I feel like im being punished for doing good detective work and told that it was dumb luck that i arrested a cultie when it was not. Even if this appeal gets denied i want someone to clear up what enough probable cause is because to me IC this was more than enough (im sure NT would teach seccies about early cult signs and being paranoid in general).
Why you think you should be unbanned: I believe fatal's decision is based on his incorrect interpretation and opinion on probable cause (again, i had no idea albinos show up as pale). That aside we can all learn how much probable cause is enough in this situation. Also, the last part of the note doesn't make sense, is sec supposed to play passive when they suspect cult? We would of been steamrolled otherwise since it was only two seccies shift start.
References of good conduct: Been playing here since ssethtide, i have few notes (compared to time played) and no bans yet.

[BrotherCrow]

Just wanted to add some things i feel i missed:
-i dont go around random stunning/ searching people, from ooc chat i can see this might be endemic with sec right now but i dont do this unless im certain (this is flopodil not krokodil).
-seems like fatal is basing his judgement on cult not being confirmed at the time i made the arrest, that seems incredibly unfair on sec, should we just wait until we get balanced stunned in maint? Or maybe when half the crew is cult? Whats the difference between this culty being obvious in public and a rune in maints?
-the culty wasnt any player, it was another admin and i cant let go that there was bias in this ahelp.

[Sylphet]

Just want to point out that notes are a record, not a punishment. You can read the thread on this, and note appeals in general, here. https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13422

[Fatal]

As the previous admin stated, notes are a record, not a punishment

As for doing basic detective work?

There was absolutely no suspected cult at the time of the arrest, the roboticist in question had a gas mask, pale skin (it was only after I applied the note that I actually found it was from albino), and mild bruising (7.5 points of damage to be exact)

The player in question had in fact, done absolutely nothing regarding cult, the bruise damage, to be honest, after extensive log diving, I could not find out where the hell it came from, pale skin is not grounds for arrest, and a gask mask again, is not really grounds for arrest, and being in the HoPline getting access? Come on now it's well established you can't just arrest people getting access at the HoPline

This was all about 5 minutes into the shift on a blue alert, you arrested them on a hunch and got lucky basically, I agree that it wasn't a RANDOM arrest, hence the note doesn't say random, but you do need a half decent amount of probable cause and I didn't feel that meet that criteria

I'm not sure what you want here, are you wanting the note gone? Or amended because you feel it's incorrect?

[BrotherCrow]

I guess i just needed to vent and im mostly over it now, i probably shouldnt care this much about a note on a 2D spessman game.

I still stand by that all the points mentioned combined were enough to warrant that arrest (including the paranoia that this game is known for after all). You tell me that i got lucky, this may be true but this doesnt mean my decisions leading to the arrest were based on luck.

Ideally i would like a second opinion on this situation and then remove/keep the note based on that.

[Agux909]

Just a quick reminder here that powergaming isn't rule breaking in LRP servers. The appealer acted following their powergaming hunch, and happened to be lucky about it.

Had the roboticist not been a cultie, the note wouldn't exist, because they would've been released without any other IC consequence after being searched for naught, maybe followed by a "sorry, I just got paranoid, go back to work" from the officer. Scenarios like this happen all the time, specially in LRP.

[Fatal]

Okay I'll leave this up for headmins to look at and get a second opinion

As for not caring about a note? You are completely in your right to appeal a note, I got no issue with that

Just remember, a note is not a punishment, merely a record of "This is what happened"

[TribeOfBeavers]

Just a quick reminder here that powergaming isn't rule breaking in LRP servers. The appealer acted following their powergaming hunch, and happened to be lucky about it.

Had the roboticist not been a cultie, the note wouldn't exist, because they would've been released without any other IC consequence after being searched for naught, maybe followed by a "sorry, I just got paranoid, go back to work" from the officer. Scenarios like this happen all the time, specially in LRP.

While there isn't a rule that says you can't "powergame", rule 4 says:

...but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

So this comes down to whether or not there was reasonable prior cause or the person being searched was acting like an antag.

[BrotherCrow]

I would like to know how much suspicion is enough for arrest, like do i need to see them printing 50 stacks of plasteel to up it to the magic number of 5 culty behaviours before i can arrest without being bwoinked?

Or am i never allowed to follow my instincts and observations before the 5 minute mark? (Is there a special no rush rule like in some rts games?). This would of also never of happened if cult werent so sloppy, in the arrested culties case they were just extremely unlucky to be albino and have minor bruising at the time i was inspecting.

Also its extremely frustrating to have fatal dismiss all my suspicions, sure, individually they mean nothing, but combined in a paranoia laden game makes them significant (to me atleast).

[Domitius]

We see no reason to overrule the note that Fatal placed on you about this situation.

Rule 4 states that without prior cause you cannot initiate pre-emptive searches as a non-antag without probable cause. Many players wear gas masks, many players run to the HoPline for more access or for a job change, these are not suspicious behaviours even when combined with the points you've brought up. This note simply lets us know that you have talked with Fatal about probable cause and that this incident did not fall into that category, full stop.

To answer your question on probable cause here if other players were shouting out about cult or if you have physically seen either a cult dagger or a blood ruin I believe you would have probable cause to arrest them. You could also have used your hunch to investigate areas for yourself for any sign of activity.

Domitius: Uphold.
Coconutwarrior97: Uphold.
Naloac: Abstained.