/tg/Station 13

BYOND account: Artilljerist
Character name: I don't remember actually, there was a random generated name
Ban type: That was only server ban I assume
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: As a detective killed the clown and claimed they were a traitor over what I can assume was over the clown disarming them earlier in the shift. They were not online to discuss this ban. After the original fight with the clown at the bridge the captain told you the clown was acting as their lawyer, after this you should not attempt to start more fights with the clown over the stuff they did at the bridge as it was in self defence. Due to your negative history you've been given a ban longer than you would normally for killing a player. In the future bans will be longer.
Time ban was placed: 15:39:18
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 148231
Your side of the story: Four people on the bridge did some things to me during the whole round, like taking my boots and throwing glass shards under my legs, pushing in the walls, threw clowns at me, shooting my head with laser guns to the crit, knocking out using graytider stuff, nicking police baton, beating me with telescopic batons a lot of times, stoling my revolver, nicking my ID, and these people just behaved very strange.
Well I tried to resolve the issue with HoS, but he did not really care what was happening at the station. When the captain asked me to stop the showdown with the clown in the first time, I tried to persuade the clown to return my baton. It didn't change anything. But then he continued to push me into the walls already in the medbay and he begged to be shot. I realized that he was a traitor after I found some syndie cigarettes and some other traitor stuff in his backpack. There was something else very strange, but more than that I can’t remember. From the outside it seemed to me for a minute that they co-op'd all this time.
Why you think you should be unbanned: This round were full of angry and toxic robust guys, it seems to me that I was haggard in full and I already received my punishment by shooting my head off. I understand that making a picture of a person using notes is easier than talking to him directly, but I think that a lot of context is lost in them and sometimes you may have a wrong opinion.
References of good conduct: If serverbanned and **especially** if permabanned, have you played on other servers during the time you were banned? Name them here, in many cases good references of conduct and character can be crucial to a successful appeal. Otherwise, feel free to remove this portion.

Firstly, thanks for opening an appeal so soon after the ban was issued. It was not my intention to avoid talking to you directly however you were not online when I needed to get your side of the story.

I've read over your appeal and there's a few questions that I would like to ask you about it so I can get the full picture of the situation.

Firstly in regards to the traitor items besides the cigarettes could I ask what other items you found on them which were traitorous in nature. In your appeal you said you found something strange but couldn't remember, could you recall what sort of nature of item it was that you found?

I'd also like to ask about where you said "From the outside it seemed to me for a minute that they co-op'd all this time". By this do you mean you thought they were allied traitors, or something different? And furthering this were there any actions in particular that made you think this?

Once again, thanks for the appeal, I hope we can come to a resolution soon.

NamelessFairy wrote:Firstly, thanks for opening an appeal so soon after the ban was issued. It was not my intention to avoid talking to you directly however you were not online when I needed to get your side of the story.

I've read over your appeal and there's a few questions that I would like to ask you about it so I can get the full picture of the situation.

Firstly in regards to the traitor items besides the cigarettes could I ask what other items you found on them which were traitorous in nature. In your appeal you said you found something strange but couldn't remember, could you recall what sort of nature of item it was that you found?

I'd also like to ask about where you said "From the outside it seemed to me for a minute that they co-op'd all this time". By this do you mean you thought they were allied traitors, or something different? And furthering this were there any actions in particular that made you think this?

Once again, thanks for the appeal, I hope we can come to a resolution soon.

Glad that you answered here.

I cant remember. There was something else in clowns backpack of these items that you can only get thru an uplink. It was something that definitely made me think that the clown is a traitor, later I took it for myself, besides a pack of syndie-cigs. I think this can be verified using logs. He also had his clown PDA in his backpack, I'm not sure if the messenger was open in it. Usually people very rarely puting their PDA in a backpack. I also know for sure that the clown could not find or steal these items, because it didn't take long since the roundstart for someone to identify the traitor. It would be interesting to know at what roundtime I spoke to the captain.

It seemed to me that they used something like voicechat, yes, they acted synchronously and quickly, just talking a little in a regular in-game text chat.

Thanks for the response.

I've got a few more questions to ask just so I can make sure your perspective fits in with the full image we have at hand.

Firstly I just want to confirm that this is true, the reason that you went after the clown was because your remembered them as one of the four people on the bridge that were doing various hostile acts to you. and you were under the assumption that they had your baton. I'm currently acting under the assumption that this was your motive so correct me if I'm wrong.

I have two issues with this motive that I'd like to ask you about. The first is related to the clowns involvement with the 3 others at the bridge. Throughout the entire games logs I can only find two instances where the clown actually attacked you, the first of which was during the original bridge encounter which your actions were fine given the context, the second is after you had shot the clown multiple times. Outside of this the clown only shoved and stunned you with most of these being in response to you attacking the clown or people nearby. While the other people you had issue with did various graytider stuff like you gave as an example such as shooting you down to 5hp the clown was uninvolved with any of the things that would normally warrant force. Were you aware of this, or have a different perspective to add?

The clown did however steal your baton and I understand fully that you may want to use force to get that back but based on the logs you should have come across your baton before killing the clown.

[2020-10-13 14:47:03.344] ATTACK: Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) has stunned Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) (NEWHP: 73.1) (Courtroom (177,123,2))
[2020-10-13 14:47:06.802] ATTACK: Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) has stunned Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) with the police baton (NEWHP: 73.1) (Courtroom (177,125,2))

About five minutes before killing the clown you were stunned with a baton that you could have assumed was yours by someone who was not the clown. And about 2 minutes later you killed that same person

[2020-10-13 14:48:47.271] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has fired at Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) with .38 bullet from Brig (NEWHP: -93.9) (Brig (199,129,2))
[2020-10-13 14:48:47.330] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has shot Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: -93.9) (Brig (199,129,2))
[2020-10-13 14:48:47.796] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has fired at Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) with .38 bullet from Brig (NEWHP: -112.7) (Brig (199,129,2))
[2020-10-13 14:48:47.864] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has shot Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: -112.7) (Brig (199,129,2))

Based on this encounter Dean should have been the main suspect but there is no record of you asking anyone on sec if your baton had come up during Dean's arrest. My question about this relates to why you thought the clown had your baton at this point.

[2020-10-13 14:51:39.399] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has shot Livrah/(Karandash) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: -27.6) (Medbay Central (170,94,2))
[2020-10-13 14:51:45.305] SAY: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) "would you tell me where is the baton?" (Medbay Central (170,93,2))

I'd also like to bring up that when questioning the clown about your baton you had already shot him into crit.
Of course I may be wrong here since I'm under the assumption that the baton Dean had was yours when it could have been from the derelict. But this information is lost after the round ended and seems like a far harder assumption to make.

The logs for this round can be accessed here. I've referenced the attack and game logs.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-148231/

NamelessFairy wrote:Thanks for the response.

I've got a few more questions to ask just so I can make sure your perspective fits in with the full image we have at hand.

Firstly I just want to confirm that this is true, the reason that you went after the clown was because your remembered them as one of the four people on the bridge that were doing various hostile acts to you. and you were under the assumption that they had your baton. I'm currently acting under the assumption that this was your motive so correct me if I'm wrong.

I have two issues with this motive that I'd like to ask you about. The first is related to the clowns involvement with the 3 others at the bridge. Throughout the entire games logs I can only find two instances where the clown actually attacked you, the first of which was during the original bridge encounter which your actions were fine given the context, the second is after you had shot the clown multiple times. Outside of this the clown only shoved and stunned you with most of these being in response to you attacking the clown or people nearby. While the other people you had issue with did various graytider stuff like you gave as an example such as shooting you down to 5hp the clown was uninvolved with any of the things that would normally warrant force. Were you aware of this, or have a different perspective to add?

The clown did however steal your baton and I understand fully that you may want to use force to get that back but based on the logs you should have come across your baton before killing the clown.

[2020-10-13 14:47:03.344] ATTACK: Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) has stunned Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) (NEWHP: 73.1) (Courtroom (177,123,2))
[2020-10-13 14:47:06.802] ATTACK: Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) has stunned Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) with the police baton (NEWHP: 73.1) (Courtroom (177,125,2))

About five minutes before killing the clown you were stunned with a baton that you could have assumed was yours by someone who was not the clown. And about 2 minutes later you killed that same person

[2020-10-13 14:48:47.271] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has fired at Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) with .38 bullet from Brig (NEWHP: -93.9) (Brig (199,129,2))
[2020-10-13 14:48:47.330] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has shot Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: -93.9) (Brig (199,129,2))
[2020-10-13 14:48:47.796] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has fired at Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) with .38 bullet from Brig (NEWHP: -112.7) (Brig (199,129,2))
[2020-10-13 14:48:47.864] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has shot Bdudy/(Dean Ivanov) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: -112.7) (Brig (199,129,2))

Based on this encounter Dean should have been the main suspect but there is no record of you asking anyone on sec if your baton had come up during Dean's arrest. My question about this relates to why you thought the clown had your baton at this point.

[2020-10-13 14:51:39.399] ATTACK: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) has shot Livrah/(Karandash) with .38 bullet (NEWHP: -27.6) (Medbay Central (170,94,2))
[2020-10-13 14:51:45.305] SAY: Artilljerist/(Homer Lombardi) "would you tell me where is the baton?" (Medbay Central (170,93,2))

I'd also like to bring up that when questioning the clown about your baton you had already shot him into crit.
Of course I may be wrong here since I'm under the assumption that the baton Dean had was yours when it could have been from the derelict. But this information is lost after the round ended and seems like a far harder assumption to make.

The logs for this round can be accessed here. I've referenced the attack and game logs.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-148231/

Hi again.

The last person which I remember that held my baton was a clown, that's why I looked for him. He was still very aggressive. I assumed that he could give it to Dean, but I got confused a bit, and couldn't notice that Dean probably acquired it already, because this mess hasnt stopped yet, and I didn't know what other tricks these guys could do. Uh, Dean stole my secondary stunstick and stunned me when I tried to arrest him for assaulting me when we went hallways, when he threw glass shards under my bare feet. Somewhere at the same time I took his body to the medbay.

There was a captain with some polish name that almost killed me. I couldn't shoot captain back for obvious reasons, luckily I had some medicines. In his presence I couldn't deal with his attachés - clown and Deen, whilst both of them continued to mocking me. Captain threatened me with shooting or demote, something like that. I was forced to obey him, despite in spite of everything that happened. Captain understood everything perfectly, but just decided to ignore that.

By that time it was possible to check clown's backpack, it was no longer necessary to ask him a question.

In regards to where you say that the clown continued to mock you I can only find 2 times where the clown mocks you while you are present.

[2020-10-13 14:34:27.229] SAY: Livrah/(Karandash) "You got robusted by the clown, my baton now" (Bridge (152,138,2))
[2020-10-13 14:45:48.160] SAY: Livrah/(Karandash) "unrobust" (Courtroom (181,123,2))

The second of these being while the clown was under fire from you.

To my knowledge, and as far as the logs show, every single combat encounter that occurred between the clown and yourself involved you attacking the clown and the clown only shoving back when words had either failed or were not an option. What this leads me to believe is that you treated all the people you met at the bridge as equals in terms of tiderish behavior, despite the clown not engaging in it.

However, given the fact that you've taken the time to appeal this after I was unable to contact you in game. As well as during my research for this appeal I've found multiple cases where the people you encountered at bridge attacked you to the point in which lethal force against them was justified. I've decided to reduce this ban to a day, and rephrase the note to better reflect the situation as well as reducing the severity of it.

I'm still open to discuss this appeal if you have evidence that contradicts my ruling on the situation. And if you can bring about evidence that does so I'm happy to further edit or remove the note altogether if needed.

NamelessFairy wrote:In regards to where you say that the clown continued to mock you I can only find 2 times where the clown mocks you while you are present.

[2020-10-13 14:34:27.229] SAY: Livrah/(Karandash) "You got robusted by the clown, my baton now" (Bridge (152,138,2))
[2020-10-13 14:45:48.160] SAY: Livrah/(Karandash) "unrobust" (Courtroom (181,123,2))

The second of these being while the clown was under fire from you.

To my knowledge, and as far as the logs show, every single combat encounter that occurred between the clown and yourself involved you attacking the clown and the clown only shoving back when words had either failed or were not an option. What this leads me to believe is that you treated all the people you met at the bridge as equals in terms of tiderish behavior, despite the clown not engaging in it.

However, given the fact that you've taken the time to appeal this after I was unable to contact you in game. As well as during my research for this appeal I've found multiple cases where the people you encountered at bridge attacked you to the point in which lethal force against them was justified. I've decided to reduce this ban to a day, and rephrase the note to better reflect the situation as well as reducing the severity of it.

I'm still open to discuss this appeal if you have evidence that contradicts my ruling on the situation. And if you can bring about evidence that does so I'm happy to further edit or remove the note altogether if needed.

Well, I don't know how this can help, but I'll post last thing that I remember.

About this clown. Initially I was going to arrest clown for breaking into the bridge, because then I didnt know that this was the captain's lawyer. This happened even before the captain and Dean appeared on the bridge. That guy was doing something at the captain's console having AA on his holographic badge. Clown nicked my baton just at this moment, starting to stun me, when I tried to detain him. It goes without saying that I would count them as tiders, correct.

Your actions in the original bridge encounter were fully acceptable, you saw the clown on the bridge with AA at the communications console. At this point you can arrest them under the assumption they've broken in. Then during the attempted arrest the clown managed to disarm you and then began stunning you. At this point you should count them as a tider and some degree of force here can be expected, however right after this the captain explained that they were acting as their lawyer and you were told to leave the bridge.

[2020-10-13 14:32:59.445] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "Get out of brigde" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:00.723] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "now" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:03.728] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "you not autroaized" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:05.037] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "hout" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:08.417] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "he is my lawyer" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:19.404] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "Are you fukin deaf" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:30.885] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "i told you to leave" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:31.610] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "now" (Bridge (150,140,2))

After the situation was explained to you the perspective that they were a tider breaking into the bridge should not be carried over. At this point the only thing the clown has done wrong is pocket your baton, which means the clown its easily valid for arrest, but not to be wordlessly killed.
I assume the reason the clown stunned you is because from the clowns perspective they were expected to be on the bridge contacting CentCom, whereas you came in and wordlessly harmbatoned them.
After the bridge incident the clown never initiated conflict with you again, its to be expected that you may try to arrest them in the future but your next two encounters with the clown were opened with you using immediate lethal force.

I understand that you were not aware that the clown had been hired as the captain's lawyer at the bridge and thus I have no issue with how you acted at the bridge. But after that fact had been made clear to you there shouldn't be any remaining reason for you to kill the clown. Of course, even after the ban length reduction and expiration, this appeal will still be open for a few more days, so if you have a justified reason to kill the clown then I'll reconsider the note.

NamelessFairy wrote:Your actions in the original bridge encounter were fully acceptable, you saw the clown on the bridge with AA at the communications console. At this point you can arrest them under the assumption they've broken in. Then during the attempted arrest the clown managed to disarm you and then began stunning you. At this point you should count them as a tider and some degree of force here can be expected, however right after this the captain explained that they were acting as their lawyer and you were told to leave the bridge.

[2020-10-13 14:32:59.445] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "Get out of brigde" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:00.723] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "now" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:03.728] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "you not autroaized" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:05.037] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "hout" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:08.417] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "he is my lawyer" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:19.404] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "Are you fukin deaf" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:30.885] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "i told you to leave" (Bridge (150,140,2))
[2020-10-13 14:33:31.610] SAY: Kacperpl123pl/(Marczin Szebeszynszki) "now" (Bridge (150,140,2))

After the situation was explained to you the perspective that they were a tider breaking into the bridge should not be carried over. At this point the only thing the clown has done wrong is pocket your baton, which means the clown its easily valid for arrest, but not to be wordlessly killed.
I assume the reason the clown stunned you is because from the clowns perspective they were expected to be on the bridge contacting CentCom, whereas you came in and wordlessly harmbatoned them.
After the bridge incident the clown never initiated conflict with you again, its to be expected that you may try to arrest them in the future but your next two encounters with the clown were opened with you using immediate lethal force.

I understand that you were not aware that the clown had been hired as the captain's lawyer at the bridge and thus I have no issue with how you acted at the bridge. But after that fact had been made clear to you there shouldn't be any remaining reason for you to kill the clown. Of course, even after the ban length reduction and expiration, this appeal will still be open for a few more days, so if you have a justified reason to kill the clown then I'll reconsider the note.

I already said that I couldn't arrest this clown because he was the captain's lawyer and any attempt to approach him and ask for the police baton back was accompanied by severe humiliation from Dean and the Captain. I also didn't intend to kill him for sure, clown was trying to get me to shoot him at teast thrice, as well when I entered the medbay with Dean's corpse when the clown was being treated by doctors. After a while, he got up and continued to push me into the walls, I fired several shots, but he continued to follow me.

Look, this guy did some very strange shit during the whole round along with Dean and the Captain, considering that clown was a traitor. Is this some kind of joke or what? I think you don't reading my posts at all actually.

A fact of the matter here that you appear to be missing was that the clown was not a traitor.

If at this point, you believe that killing the clown was justified for shoving you and minor theft then you'll have to take it to a head admin to overrule my decision.

NamelessFairy wrote:A fact of the matter here that you appear to be missing was that the clown was not a traitor.

If at this point, you believe that killing the clown was justified for shoving you and minor theft then you'll have to take it to a head admin to overrule my decision.

No? These guys acted like total brainrots and interfered with my work, clown hindered me about seven times when I tried to defend myself from the shard-o-glass guy and tried to get my stick back. I had every right to use the revolver, and I don't know what these guys were thinking, but they understood for sure that I could start shooting at them and even that did not stop them. By pushing me into the wall clown could tie me up and kill me, for example, and you would just ignore the ahelp complaint, finding kind of excuse.

Also by the time I was in the medbay, all I had with me was a revolver. What should I do, then? Surrender and politely ask him to kill me? It's absurd, no. Three co-op douchebags decided to to spoil my mood and I must get a ban for them? No, thanks.

You rightfully attempted to detain the clown for seemingly tiding into the bridge with other crewmembers present, which resulted in a scuffle. The captain then intervened informing you of the clown's unique status, which should effectively absolve him of execution worthy crimes such as grabbing AA. While the theft of your baton and some shoves 100% make them valid for arrest, it does not constitute execution.

This ban will be upheld.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Uphold.
Domitius: Uphold.
Naloac: Uphold.