[Skoglol] Rany_rain - Re-wiring An Event Borg

Rany_Rain · Post by **Rany_Rain** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:41 am #580911

BYOND account: Rany_Rain
Character name: Gannon Digson
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 1 Day
Ban reason: "Reset an event security borg that had just gotten on station with the reasoning "its no longer in the game" (parahrased). Didn't wish to discuss it in the adminhelp and suggested we discuss it on the forums instead. Reacquaint yourself with rule 1 in the meantime."
Time ban was placed: 2020-11-05 23:45
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 149751
Your side of the story:

I was the warden.

I had missed the CC announcement in regards to an old cyborg coming to the station

We found some old cyborg equipment sitting around, so we put it together. We dont really like this thing though, so it's your problem now.

Written by Central Command Update at 16: 43: 32ST

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/149751/newscaster

Around shift start a cyborg with a security module came into the brig. The captain proceeded to flash and kill the cyborg.

Spoiler:

MTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 85) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:55 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:56 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 55) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:57 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 40) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:58 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 25) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:59 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has flashed Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with the flash (NEWHP: 25) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:01 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 10) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:02 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -5) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:03 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -20) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:04 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -35) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:05 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -50) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:07 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -65) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:08 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -80) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:09 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -95) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:10 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:24 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has grabbed Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) passive grab (NEWHP: -100) (111, 165, 2) Brig
11:16:25 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with wrench (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100) (116, 82, 2) Robotics Lab
11:16:34 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with screwdriver (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100) (116, 81, 2) Robotics Lab

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/149 ... attack.txt

Exactly fifteen minutes later the same cyborg returned to brig

Following previous actions I assumed the cyborg was hostile and or valid.
I then proceeded to reset the cyborgs module to confirm it wasn't a saboteur, after repairing it Skoglol immediately admin pm'd me and then a few seconds after "smited" me with an explosion.

Spoiler:

https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/149 ... attack.txt

Why you think you should be unbanned:

Situation;

Reference:
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

I followed security policy when dealing with the cyborg. I had also followed escalation. I didn't immediately move to impair or otherwise remove the other player from the round. From my very little playtime as a cyborg, you can re-select your job through the module panel. As no harm was done I would consider this an IC issue. The fact the captain had just round removed the borg beforehand would give me reasonable suspicion that the borg itself was valid or otherwise hostile.

Rule 1;

Reference:
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules

I would argue that I didn't go out of my way as this all happened within brig next to the wardens office. The captain situation included.

Im unsure if its any different due to it being an admin spawned cyborg however I wouldn't consider clicking the modules menu and re-selecting security would be a serious impact to their round.

IC justification is me witnessing the captain kill and or otherwise remove the borg from the round giving me the valid suspicion that the cyborg was hostile or otherwise valid.

The event itself;

Removal of sec borgs -
Reference:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6247

Many people saw them as OP and game-breaking

Reference:
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct

Above all, you're here to keep the game fun and fair for the players.

I believe the event was poorly thought out and implemented.
Although somewhat irrelevant, why would you add an overpowered security cyborg to an otherwise fully staffed sec team? To my knowledge we had, one HOS, one warden, one detective and two sec officers on medium pop. Moreover it was confirmed not to be a green shift and the only typical antagonist confirmed was changelings. Surely its unfair to add an over powered cyborg mid round?

Moreover after the captain had killed the cyborg there was no clarification from the admins/CC as to if the borg was hostile or not. Im unsure as to why no actions were took to ensure the cyborg wasn't attacked again for example via another announcement. Skoglol can you hopefully shine some light?

Moreover I have an issue with the ban reason/note. Skoglol states the cyborg had just got to the station. Surely that would mean that the previous cyborg was implemented without a CC announcement further leading to confusion. If the announcement was before the first cyborg then it would mean the second implemented cyborg was implemented without an announcement.

However don't take this as fact, i'm unsure if the logs are referring to IC time or OOC time or if they are in different timezone. If I could get some assistance and or clarification I would appreciate it.

Summary as to why I should be unbanned/note amended:

I believe I acted in good faith when dealing with the sec cyborg player and otherwise didn't do anything rash.
I abided by all rules when dealing with the other player and would argue that the rule implemented doesn't apply to this situation.
I had IC justification for my actions.
I would argue that considering the captains actions and lack of clarification IC'ly from the admins, that this is an IC issue.
I believe the event was poorly implemented and poorly thought out with little regard to players mid-game.
I didn't severely negatively impact the other players round.

* the reason why I wanted this to be on the forums rather then on admin PM's is because I didn't want to argue with Skoglol in admin pm's. I wrongfully started the conversation with hostility and accused him of ban baiting and being antagonistic due to the smite IC'ly and due to the lack of announcement of an event (to be determined as of 01:29).
Arguing in admin pm's isn't constructive for either party and initially that was my fault.

References of good conduct:
Typically good security.
Have two minor notes within the past year of near constant playing, one kind of serious but the circumstances surrounding it is why it was a note and not a ban and a second for tiding AA to secure spare and disk with some escalation issues.
To paraphrase my last appeal I learn when I fuck up and avoid taking such actions again. In this instance i'm unsure if I've broken any rules.

Timonk · Post by **Timonk** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:39 am #580928

Okay I'm going to give some general information on what you picked up wrong about cyborgs:

Saboteurs can only go engie borg and they lose their disguise if you hit them once

Borgs can't freely change their modules, they have to get reset first, also resetting is not the same as repairing, borgs don't get reset when repaired. It instantly going to reset itself would have been against the point of the event anyways.

Rany_Rain · Post by **Rany_Rain** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:38 am #580943

Timonk wrote:Okay I'm going to give some general information on what you picked up wrong about cyborgs:

Saboteurs can only go engie borg and they lose their disguise if you hit them once

Borgs can't freely change their modules, they have to get reset first, also resetting is not the same as repairing, borgs don't get reset when repaired. It instantly going to reset itself would have been against the point of the event anyways.

I have limited experience as a cyborg, let alone syndicate cyborg, my mistake.

Sorry, I think either I wasn't clear or there is a misunderstanding in regards to your second point, I reset the cyborgs module in brig. I repaired the cyborg's wires immediately after resetting the module. I didn't repair the cyborgs HP.

If you refer to the attack logs from the captain and my reset logs there are two instances of two separately named cyborgs however only a single announcement from CC. My entire point stands on the lack of clarification/announcement from CC alongside a reasonable suspicion that the cyborg was hostile and or valid due to the previous actions from the captain and that my actions followed escalation policy alongside security policy.

Intercept0r · Post by **Intercept0r** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:40 pm #580959

If the announcement was before the first cyborg then it would mean the second implemented cyborg was implemented without an announcement.

That is incorrect. While there was no global announcement for the second time I was spawned, I have announced my arrival using security comms and specifically added:
Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-479) "Hello, crew." (124, 144, 2) Central Primary Hallway
Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-479) "Do not be alarmed." (108, 158, 2) Fore Primary Hallway

Additionally, to avoid a misunderstanding, after I had entered the brig, I have greeted you specifically with:
Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-479) "Hello warden" (115, 167, 2) Brig
Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-479) "I am your new security bot" (108, 169, 2) Brig

As I was making further introductions, you stood for a few seconds, then without saying a word took out a flash and proceeded to dismantle me. Did you have an IC reason (like deafness, lost headset) that would prevent you from seeing any of those messages?

Rany_Rain · Post by **Rany_Rain** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:03 pm #580964

Intercept0r wrote:
If the announcement was before the first cyborg then it would mean the second implemented cyborg was implemented without an announcement.
That is incorrect. While there was no global announcement for the second time I was spawned, I have announced my arrival using security comms and specifically added:
Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-479) "Hello, crew." (124, 144, 2) Central Primary Hallway
Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-479) "Do not be alarmed." (108, 158, 2) Fore Primary Hallway

Additionally, to avoid a misunderstanding, after I had entered the brig, I have greeted you specifically with:
Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-479) "Hello warden" (115, 167, 2) Brig
Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-479) "I am your new security bot" (108, 169, 2) Brig

As I was making further introductions, you stood for a few seconds, then without saying a word took out a flash and proceeded to dismantle me. Did you have an IC reason (like deafness, lost headset) that would prevent you from seeing any of those messages?

However don't take this as fact, i'm unsure if the logs are referring to IC time or OOC time or if they are in different timezone. If I could get some assistance and or clarification I would appreciate it.

Thanks for confirming as to if a second announcement was made.
For reference this confirms a second security cyborg was spawned without announcement.

I don't recall you talking on common but I recall you talking in brig.

proceeded to dismantle me

Can you clarify this statement. Dismantlement would imply that I wrenched your body and dismantled your exoskeleton.
I cut your module wire to reset your module. This is the equivalent of stunning someone and taking a stun baton out of their backpack and is easily reversed via the module menu.

As I was making further introductions, you stood for a few seconds, then without saying a word took out a flash and proceeded to dismantle me. Did you have an IC reason (like deafness, lost headset) that would prevent you from seeing any of those messages?

Unless someone wants to correct me what you say IC'ly is irrelevant dependent on circumstance. In this instance I believe it to be invalid as I had the ability to rightfully suspect you of being hostile and or valid due to the captains action of killing and round removing you.

You then re-apppeared at brig fifteen minutes later and I reset your module. Before the situation had time to develop Skoglol had admin PM'd me and looking back at the logs fired BSA at me.

The IC justification is that the captain had already killed you in brig and you would rightfully be suspected of being hostile and or an antag. The actions I took were tame compared to what the captain did and otherwise justified due to no clarification from admins/CC that you were not to be attacked.

Intercept0r · Post by **Intercept0r** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:03 pm #580969

I cut your module wire to reset your module. This is the equivalent of stunning someone and taking a stun baton out of their backpack and is easily reversed via the module menu.

That is incorrect. As you know, security borgs have been removed from the game - and with that, the option to configure a borg as a security borg was removed as well. Secborgs are admin spawn only.

I don't recall you talking on common but I recall you talking in brig.

Before being dropped on the station, Skoglol briefed me on why secborgs were removed, instructed to refresh space law and warned not to abuse the event. I had originally planned for HoS/warden to introduce me to the crew as a new secmember, to avoid Judgement Day anxiety due to a self-proclaimed secborg. For this purpose, the introduction was on the security channel. I recall it wasn't unusually busy.

The IC justification is that the captain had already killed you in brig and you would rightfully be suspected of being hostile and or an antag. The actions I took were tame compared to what the captain did and otherwise justified due to no clarification from admins/CC that you were not to be attacked.

Bolded is incorrect. Although the captain was admittedly more committed to my dismantlement, both you and the captain have rebuilt me as default borg shortly thereafter. The captain's immediate absence after this event may have been a hint to not go in his footsteps.

Fixed.

Rany_Rain · Post by **Rany_Rain** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:35 pm #580971

That is incorrect. As you know, security borgs have been removed from the game - and with that, the option to configure a borg as a security borg was removed as well. Secborgs are admin spawn only.

Were you not spawned by an admin? Pardon my ignorance but i've never played as an admin spawned cyborg, or sec cyborg.

Before being dropped on the station, Skoglol briefed me on why secborgs were removed, instructed to refresh space law and warned not to abuse the event. I had originally planned for HoS/warden to introduce me to the crew as a new secmember, to avoid Judgement Day anxiety due to a self-proclaimed secborg. For this purpose, the introduction was on the security channel. I recall it wasn't unusually busy.

This is false;
EDIT: Reference: https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/149 ... e=game.txt

This is what you said face to face:

Spoiler:

This is what you said on common radio, not security radio:

Spoiler:

EDIT 2:

To further add that this is a lie here is the only reference to an introduction:

Spoiler:

That is incorrect. Although the captain was admittedly more committed to my dismantlement, both you and the captain have rebuilt me as default borg shortly thereafter. The captain's immediate absence after this event may have been a hint to not go in his footsteps.

Which part of this is incorrect? Its quite literally all visible within logs.
Your module was reset. Dismantlement implies that I had completely disabled you via cutting all of your wires and then dismantling your entire exoskeleton alongside all of your components.

Correct me if i'm wrong but the real version of events is that you were flashed, your module wire was cut, you were reset and then I fixed your wires and placed your battery back.
Ill reiterate but under normal circumstances you can re-select your module through the module menu.

The captain's immediate absence after this event may have been a hint to not go in his footsteps.

To my knowledge, the captain suicided. Unfortunately mid game no one but admins and the ahelp'er have access to adminpm's. I have absolutely no way of knowing, even now, who was ahelped and what the outcome was.

Point still stands that unless you can reference anything within security policy, escalation policy or the main rules list, no rules were broken.

I have absolutely zero way of knowing outcomes of ahelps and moreover I cannot and do not know what goes on in the background of events up until they are announced.

No announcements were made in the second instance from the admins, not yourself.

I had IC justification to suspect you of being hostile and or an antag and took reasonable action as per the security policy to address it.

Rany_Rain · Post by **Rany_Rain** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:52 pm #580974

Intercept0r wrote:
I cut your module wire to reset your module. This is the equivalent of stunning someone and taking a stun baton out of their backpack and is easily reversed via the module menu.
That is incorrect. As you know, security borgs have been removed from the game - and with that, the option to configure a borg as a security borg was removed as well. Secborgs are admin spawn only.

I don't recall you talking on common but I recall you talking in brig.
Before being dropped on the station, Skoglol briefed me on why secborgs were removed, instructed to refresh space law and warned not to abuse the event. I had originally planned for HoS/warden to introduce me to the crew as a new secmember, to avoid Judgement Day anxiety due to a self-proclaimed secborg. For this purpose, the introduction was on the security channel. I recall it wasn't unusually busy.

The IC justification is that the captain had already killed you in brig and you would rightfully be suspected of being hostile and or an antag. The actions I took were tame compared to what the captain did and otherwise justified due to no clarification from admins/CC that you were not to be attacked.
Bolded is incorrect. Although the captain was admittedly more committed to my dismantlement, both you and the captain have rebuilt me as default borg shortly thereafter. The captain's immediate absence after this event may have been a hint to not go in his footsteps.

Fixed.

To address your edit. Im going to reiterate your attack logs;

Spoiler:

MTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 85) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:55 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:56 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 55) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:57 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 40) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:58 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 25) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:14:59 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has flashed Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with the flash (NEWHP: 25) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:01 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 10) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:02 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -5) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:03 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -20) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:04 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -35) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:05 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -50) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:07 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -65) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:08 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -80) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:09 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -95) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:10 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with officer's sabre (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100) (111, 166, 2) Brig
11:15:24 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has grabbed Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) passive grab (NEWHP: -100) (111, 165, 2) Brig
11:16:25 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with wrench (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100) (116, 82, 2) Robotics Lab
11:16:34 ATTACK Goodoldtimes/(Frank Horrigan) has attacked Intercept0r/(Security Cyborg-491) with screwdriver (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100) (116, 81, 2) Robotics Lab

Spoiler:

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

Reference: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Escalation

Intercept0r · Post by **Intercept0r** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:07 pm #580975

There's raw logs elsewhere, they're easier to read:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... mms.txt.gz

Rany_Rain · Post by **Rany_Rain** » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:12 pm #580976

Intercept0r wrote:There's raw logs elsewhere, they're easier to read:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... mms.txt.gz

Pardon, completely my fault. https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/149 ... e=game.txt doesn't appear to include comms channel chatter barring binary and it all appears to be as if its face to face. Ill retract everything in regards barring the fact I don't recall you talking on there

Edit:
Reference: https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/149 ... attack.txt / https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/149 ... e=game.txt
After investigation as to why it was missed, I was busy reviving the mime at the time Interceptor radio'd to security.

Spoiler:

skoglol · Post by **skoglol** » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:43 am #580988

Please stop arguing between you two, it wont lead to anything.

Here's the full ahelp:

Code: Select all

[2020-11-05 23:33:26.620] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Skoglol/(Scott Smith)->Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson): Hi there, wanna let me in on what you are doing there?
[2020-11-05 23:33:54.145] ADMIN: Skoglol/(Scott Smith) punished Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson) with Bluespace Artillery Device.
[2020-11-05 23:33:59.105] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson)->Skoglol/(Scott Smith): Are you retarded
[2020-11-05 23:34:14.144] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Skoglol/(Scott Smith)->Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson): Did you seriously ask ME that?
[2020-11-05 23:35:22.013] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson)->Skoglol/(Scott Smith): Yes. It appears as if secborgs have been re-added in a PR ive missed. Typically sec borgs are the works of syndie TC. After resetting the borg in a non-harmful manner you've not only decided to boink me but also smite me. So yes. Why are you being stupid
[2020-11-05 23:36:22.218] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Skoglol/(Scott Smith)->Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson): Why would you assume a non hostile borg that rolled up in your brig and said "Im at your disposal" is a syndicate trick? Your playstyle fucking sucks.
[2020-11-05 23:38:15.574] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson)->Skoglol/(Scott Smith): Im not aruging with you. Sec borgs were removed over a year ago. If your influencing the round, that is fair, what isn't fair is when you have not announced an event or hinting that the borg isn't using the syndie borg chamelon. This is literally ban baiting
[2020-11-05 23:38:26.628] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson)->Skoglol/(Scott Smith): This has happened twice now, firstly at round start with the captain
[2020-11-05 23:39:33.070] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Skoglol/(Scott Smith)->Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson): Syndicate borgs cant camo as anything else than an engineer borg, and the camo fails if you hit them. You flat out rewired the borg. Your excuse doesnt hold water.
[2020-11-05 23:40:25.442] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Skoglol/(Scott Smith)->Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson): Also, I did send a centcom announcement about sending a borg.
[2020-11-05 23:40:29.746] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson)->Skoglol/(Scott Smith): https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules "Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists" Ban or note me and we can take it to the forum
[2020-11-05 23:41:18.264] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson)->Skoglol/(Scott Smith): can't see the announcement would you mind copying and pasting it please
[2020-11-05 23:41:32.150] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Skoglol/(Scott Smith)->Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson): Sure, you are allowed to know mechanics. That does not mean you are okay to delete a secborg because it is admin spawned. This is not at all how the rule you cited works.
[2020-11-05 23:42:52.185] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson)->Skoglol/(Scott Smith): That wasn't referring to re-wiring the borg it was referring to you accusing me of metagaming. Ban or note me we can take it to the forum I don't want to aruge with you. This has happend to my knowledge twice throughout the round now. Id appreciate a copy and paste of the announcement though
[2020-11-05 23:44:08.811] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Skoglol/(Scott Smith)->Rany_Rain/(Gannon Digson): Okay pal, lets discuss on the forums.

Let me first off direct you to the following headmin ruling from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings

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Killing nonhostile admin spawned entities | Against the rules, don't do it. | PKPenguin321

Naturally, I understand that as a player you do not have perfect information. That does not give you a free pass to act as you want on that limited information. In this case, you knew security borgs were not in the game, and according to yourself in the ahelp thats the reason you decided to reset it. "This is admin spawned/a TC trade so it must be bad." is over the line metagaming, pure and simple.

Let me adress some of your points.

the reason why I wanted this to be on the forums rather then on admin PM's is because I didn't want to argue with Skoglol in admin pm's.

Considering where the conversation was going, this was probably a good idea.

I then proceeded to reset the cyborgs module to confirm it wasn't a saboteur, after repairing it Skoglol immediately admin pm'd me and then a few seconds after "smited" me with an explosion.

I didn't severely negatively impact the other players round.

As youve been informed by others, saboteurs do not work like this. In addition, since it is disabled in configs the security borg module is not available for selection after a module reset. You effectively killed its chances to be a security borg, unless I intervened and made him one again (for the 3rd time that round).

The fact the captain had just round removed the borg beforehand would give me reasonable suspicion that the borg itself was valid or otherwise hostile.

I had IC justification for my actions.
I would argue that considering the captains actions and lack of clarification IC'ly from the admins, that this is an IC issue.

I believe I acted in good faith when dealing with the sec cyborg player and otherwise didn't do anything rash.

The captain round removed the borg for no IC reason. It was almost literally the exact same situation as with you, the borg came to brig, said hi, got flashed, then fucked up. When questioned, the captain said he did it because he thought it was funny. The fact that the security borg came back alive after having been killed (you thought it was the same one) and was not the reason the captain died (you said you knew this was a suicide, his corpse was outside your office) should have been an indication that maybe whatever reason the captain had to kill it in the first place had been resolved. I do not agree that this was in any way good IC reasoning on your part, just metagaming it as an admin spawn as I indicated above.

I followed security policy when dealing with the cyborg. I had also followed escalation. I didn't immediately move to impair or otherwise remove the other player from the round.

Since when is security policy to flash and reset borgs that have done no reported wrong? How do you think this follows escalation? There was nothing to escalate in the first place.

Moreover after the captain had killed the cyborg there was no clarification from the admins/CC as to if the borg was hostile or not. Im unsure as to why no actions were took to ensure the cyborg wasn't attacked again for example via another announcement. Skoglol can you hopefully shine some light?

You had no reason to assume the borg was hostile to you. You are not entitled to an announcement about everything that happens in the game, or even with events.

I believe the event was poorly implemented and poorly thought out with little regard to players mid-game.

I believe the event was poorly thought out and implemented.

Calling it an event is arguably a bit far, as it was just a single borg sent to assist the station. You chose the path of no interaction instead of exploring something unusual. You are making this statement without even knowing what the event was. If you tried to participate in it instead of ending it, I might be more inclined to take your criticism.

Surely its unfair to add an over powered cyborg mid round?

The borg was just instructed to enforce space law, and thats pretty much it. It had a custom lawset that I believe put it in a good position to do so, and without causing anyone any harm. The antags that round were lings, who have EMP abilities if they worry about borgs. The borg was instructed to make sure criminials (by space law) served time and to prevent any harm coming to them.

So to sum it up. You saw something unusual and assumed it had to be bad because it was admin spawned. Even in this appeal you are demonstrating a complete lack of understanding that what you did was shitty, and you keep trying to lean on security policy (??) and escalation policy (????) to defend your actions.

The bottom line is pretty much what I already told you in the ahelp. Your playstyle fucking sucks, and you're a dick. You deserved this day off, even if all it did was to force you to re-evaluate why you did what you did. Please, in future, just play fair. We are all here to have fun, and the way you played yesterday is antithetical to that.

Rany_Rain · Post by **Rany_Rain** » Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:45 am #581014

Naturally, I understand that as a player you do not have perfect information. That does not give you a free pass to act as you want on that limited information. In this case, you knew security borgs were not in the game, and according to yourself in the ahelp thats the reason you decided to reset it. "This is admin spawned/a TC trade so it must be bad." is over the line metagaming, pure and simple.

Reference: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Escalation

Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists

Pardon I can see i wasn't clear in the admin pm's.
This was the reason given in the admin pm's;

Sec borgs were removed over a year ago. If your influencing the round, that is fair, what isn't fair is when you have not announced an event or hinting that the borg isn't using the syndie borg chamelon

I'm attempting to highlight the fact that the event was poorly implemented with lack of clarification as to what was occurring. I watched the event cyborg die and thus the event end. A separately named cyborg/revived cyborg then re-appeared causing suspicion. IC justification and escalation has already been clarified before, please expand as to why it was wrong of me to trust the Captain's decision.

As youve been informed by others, saboteurs do not work like this. In addition, since it is disabled in configs the security borg module is not available for selection after a module reset. You effectively killed its chances to be a security borg, unless I intervened and made him one again (for the 3rd time that round).

In regards to saboteurs and my previous statement:

I have limited experience as a cyborg, let alone syndicate cyborg, my mistake.

In addition, since it is disabled in configs the security borg module is not available for selection after a module reset. You effectively killed its chances to be a security borg, unless I intervened and made him one again

I have zero knowledge of TG's user panel nor do I have experience with admin spawned cyborgs and I doubt anyone would expect me to have any. If this happened three times in a round how many times was that due to confusion or just tiding?
What steps did you take to prevent it from happening a fourth time if 2/3 recreations were due to confusion/a miss understanding.

The captain round removed the borg for no IC reason. It was almost literally the exact same situation as with you, the borg came to brig, said hi, got flashed, then fucked up. When questioned, the captain said he did it because he thought it was funny. The fact that the security borg came back alive after having been killed (you thought it was the same one) and was not the reason the captain died (you said you knew this was a suicide, his corpse was outside your office) should have been an indication that maybe whatever reason the captain had to kill it in the first place had been resolved. I do not agree that this was in any way good IC reasoning on your part, just metagaming it as an admin spawn as I indicated above.

That is no where near identical to my situation? I didn't round remove the cyborg and I didn't attempt to harm or otherwise maim them and I didn't do it because it was funny?

When questioned, the captain said he did it because he thought it was funny

I had no way of knowing this at the time.

should have been an indication that maybe whatever reason the captain had to kill it in the first place had been resolved

I again had no way of knowing this at the time

I do not agree that this was in any way good IC reasoning on your part, just metagaming it as an admin spawn as I indicated above.

As per my admin pm's and as per my appeal form I rightfully assumed the cyborg had been round removed.
I took reasonable steps to confirm the cyborg wasn't a threat due to the last situation so the situation could be clarified IC'ly and then rectified afterwards. You immediately pm'd me and then BSA'd me not allowing the situation to develop.

Since when is security policy to flash and reset cyborgs that have done no reported wrong? How do you think this follows escalation? There was nothing to escalate in the first place.

I had no reason to assume the captains actions were bad or unjustified and due to this had the reasonable suspicion that the cyborg was hostile and or otherwise an antag as you wouldn't instantly assume another player would round remove someone because they thought it was funny. IC justification and escalation has already been clarified before, please expand as to why it was wrong of me to trust the Captain's decision.

You had no reason to assume the borg was hostile to you. You are not entitled to an announcement about everything that happens in the game, or even with events.

I had absolute reason to assume the cyborg was hostile too me. I had fifteen minutes earlier watched the Captain round remove them and had no reason to assume this was for an invalid reason.

You are not entitled to an announcement about everything that happens in the game, or even with events.

Completely true but I don't think your considering that most of security had just watched the Captain round remove said cyborg. Absolutely no one had reason to doubt the Captains decision and thus caused this incident.

Calling it an event is arguably a bit far, as it was just a single borg sent to assist the station. You chose the path of no interaction instead of exploring something unusual. You are making this statement without even knowing what the event was. If you tried to participate in it instead of ending it, I might be more inclined to take your criticism.

If this isn't an event then what would it be sorry? My interaction with the cyborg lasted a minute at best and there was no opportunity to develop the situation due to the admin sit.

The borg was just instructed to enforce space law, and thats pretty much it. It had a custom lawset that I believe put it in a good position to do so, and without causing anyone any harm. The antags that round were lings, who have EMP abilities if they worry about cyborgs. The cyborg was instructed to make sure criminals (by space law) served time and to prevent any harm coming to them.

This is fair but again I had no way of knowing this at the time. The only thing I knew about the cyborg was the Captain round removing them, which at the time I had no reason to doubt was justified.

My own summary:

This entire reply completely skirts around any justification and the entire perspective of myself and uses information that I wouldn't have in an attempt to invalidate any IC situation beforehand. I think my takeaway is that you need to tackle the fact that I had just watched the Captain kill said cyborg rather then using catch-all statements like I was working with limited information.

This entire situation falls back on if my actions at the time were justified given what had happened before.

Again to reiterate, the cyborg was flashed and then its module reset. In any normal circumstance this would be equivalent of stripping someone of weaponry.
Past that point the situation wasn't allowed to be developed.

The reason I am relying on escalation and security policy is because the saying;

Your playstyle fucking sucks, and you're a dick

Is subjective and vague. I'm attempting to display a clear willingness to not jump from confusion to round removal such as the Captain and in your own words, exploring something unusual alongside attempting to display that I was or was attempting to abide by server rules and policy.

If you want to attempt to invalidate that by stating that I am a dick and that my play-style fucking sucks I would like to have it expanded upon.

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:39 pm #581101

"Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists" gives you permission to KNOW things your character wouldn't otherwise know (IE a security officer performing surgery, or a NT employee finding an uplink and even knowing the syndicate usually have a standard password for them). It does not condone any action apart from knowing.

IE you are allowed to KNOW the AI COULD be malf but you are NOT allowed to setup the pipenet so the AI cannot interact with it.

The above post should have said something like "I am allowed to know TC trades are a possibility and X/Y/Z suggested that this was in fact a TC trade rather than a normal event", as using it as justification alone is misinterpreting the rule. Wanted to clarify since policy discussion posts also would seem to suggest others interpret that rule a bit too liberally.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

I'd just like to clarify that killing non-hostile admin-spawned or created beings just because they're admin-created and admins often create hostile entities has been against policy for three years, as clarified in the headmin rulings page on the wiki.

Domitius · Post by **Domitius** » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:55 pm #581424

As this has been several days and I believe conversation has been exhausted I want to step in to clean this up.

While I understand not memorizing every single Headmin ruling you made zero attempt to engage with the situation and to instead wordlessly flash and re-wire a player who was excited to have the rare chance of being a sec-borg who also had clear instructions to work with you. They were not given the chance to fully introduce themselves as you went to town immediately on them. When we reference rule 1 "don't be a dick" this is the type of situation we have in mind.

If you have any situations in the future that you believe is the result of a malicious TC trade please ahelp it.

Edited: This ban(now note) will be upheld as it is.

/tg/Station 13

[Skoglol] Rany_rain - Re-wiring An Event Borg

[Skoglol] Rany_rain - Re-wiring An Event Borg

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