[Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

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knewtoomuch
 
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[Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby knewtoomuch » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:31 pm #581088

BYOND account: Ricardomilos
Character name: Killa Adamn
Ban type: Server and sec department
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: As a sec officer gibbed an innocent person without Hos/ captain permission
Time ban was placed: 07/11/2020 21:21
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 149869
Your side of the story: I watched a chef try to drag an SSD security officer into the kitchen before doing CQC on them. I try to drag their prone body away and also get CQCed before the chef runs off with a stun baton. This person gets lynched by like 5 people and I gib them in front of the entire security department, the chaplain and the other chef. Absolutely no complaints (people were even talking about him as though he was an antag later in the round) about this by the hos, witnesses and so on until my ban - there were even complaints that he was free at all before this since he supposedly killed an assistant shiftstart.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I did nothing wrong. The chef tried to abuse the fact that a security officer was away to kill them/take their gear and he got killed for it. If the chef was 'innocent' (we thought he might have been a revhead since he had a flash, and there were suspicions about revs - later confirmed - about revs already) then that just means he should have been banned and not me. The idea that I should have gotten the explicit approval from the hos is a completely made up precedent - I've been lockered/gibbed many times in the past by non-department head security for doing similar things - and doesn't even apply because the HoS was right there, did not stop the gibbing whatsoever and only complained that I didn't wait for him to use a mindshield implant on his corpse to see if he was a revhead or not.



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WineAllWine
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby WineAllWine » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:39 pm #581092

Hello!

Firstly, thanks for appealing.

Now, the reason you were banned is for gibbing the chef in question, which is absent from your ban appeal. If you had perma'd them or taken them to the brig and had the captain or HoS authorise an execution we wouldn't be here.

Would you care to explain why you think gibbing was the correct course of action here?

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knewtoomuch
 
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby knewtoomuch » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:47 pm #581093

Because I don't like when people use OOC situations to try and grief and I think most people will agree with me on that. There are precedents available on this forum and the headmin decisions page of the wiki where similar situations have happened and the conclusion has pretty much been "you can do it, but don't complain if you get removed from the round." With this in mind, and presuming the chef made an ahelp and that's why you intervened, I'd go as far as to say this is on him for banbaiting.

As for the gibbing: I don't think it's really significant since as a punishment execution or permabrig is basically a matter of preference and the HoS is right there. Since it was a while ago and I wasn't really paying attention this might be wrong but I'm pretty sure it was even the hos who let me into the cold room - I had no reason to believe he was against this.

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WineAllWine
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby WineAllWine » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:59 pm #581094

I don't like to leave people waiting for no reason, I;ve been speaking to the headmins, and this appeal is unlikely to be responded to further in the next 12 hours - I don't want to move forward without their blessing.

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knewtoomuch
 
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby knewtoomuch » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:02 pm #581095

That's fine. Sorry that this is taking up so much of your time.

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WineAllWine
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby WineAllWine » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:14 pm #581097

having had counsel from headmins, this ban stands.

Headsmins are, of course, welcome to overrule any of my judgements.

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knewtoomuch
 
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby knewtoomuch » Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:00 am #581103

WineAllWine wrote:having had counsel from headmins, this ban stands.

Headsmins are, of course, welcome to overrule any of my judgements.


Would appreciate a little more explanation so I know what I should do in the future. I still don't think I did anything wrong in this situation.

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Vekter
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby Vekter » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:09 am #581119

knewtoomuch wrote:
WineAllWine wrote:having had counsel from headmins, this ban stands.

Headsmins are, of course, welcome to overrule any of my judgements.


Would appreciate a little more explanation so I know what I should do in the future. I still don't think I did anything wrong in this situation.


The correct decision would have been to either permabrig them or have the HoS or Captain authorize an execution instead of completely round removing them.
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Spoiler:
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PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
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Farquaar
 
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby Farquaar » Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:01 am #581120

I parsed the logs. It's a bit rough, but gives you an idea as to what was being talked about before the gibbing. I compacted the dialgoue for easy reading, all info can be verified here and here

---
Clown: Chef is killing assistant in kitchen
Chaplain: Suicide
Clown: HELP HIM RIGHT N I HEAR SKULL CRACKING
Chaplain: He killed himself, let the chef have his fun
Clown: He killed him...

While this exchange is occurring, presumably over the radio, security responds. At 33:07, Killa Adamn throws a flashbang into the kitchen cold room, stunning the Chef. At 33:16, Adamn and the Chef scuffle in the kitchen. The Chef resists with an aggressive grab, but is subdued and stunned.

The HoS inquires about the incident over radio.

HoS (over radio): Chef killed an assistant? is that True?
Chef: HE COMMITED SUICIDE YOU FUCKING IDIOPT HE SYICIDFED HOLY SHI HE SUICIDEd AR YOU AUTSITIC DO YOU HAVE LESS THAN 5 BRAINCELLS
Chaplain: Assistant was a suicide.
Officer Adamn: tried to disarm me. epic
HoS (over radio): then chef is based. also sad
Adamn: arrest him
Chef: YOU FUCKING RETARDS
Officer Yang (also in the kitchen): Sorry, sir. Guilty until proven innocent.
Chef: DO YOU HAVE LESS THAN 5 BRAINCESLLSlt
Chef (OOC): LY SHIT
Chef: IVESEEN DUMB SEC BUT NOT THIS DUMB

Chef is arrested by the security officers. General consensus among security appears to be that the Chef murdered an assistant, though the chaplain and chef insist that it was a suicide. The following conversation took place in the brig during the arrest, at 34:04

Officer Nep-Tui: what did the cook do?
Officer Yang: Uh... he killed an assistant. And tried to make something out of his meat. Which is also a crime.

The Chef gets free after a few minutes of brig time. At 42:17, he attacks the Clown, and the ensuing fight lasts until 43:42, when the Chef slips on a banana peel. Several crewmates including Paola Riker, Thomas Danforth, Miss Stocking, Officer Yang, and Officer Breeg subdue the Chef in the Bar, while he resists. Even the Chaplain calls security and tries to stun the chef, though they refrain from inflicting brute damage.

Chef: beat up the clwon he keeps yelling that i killed a suicided assistn

Adamn also enters the fray at around 45:31. The struggle goes on for a few minutes, where multiple crewmembers kick, beat and bludgeon the chef. At 46:28, the Chef finally dies of brute force trauma. During these final moments, the HoS is in attendance, cracking jokes about ERP.

Adamn asks the AI to open the kitchen back room. The HoS tries to get an understanding of the situation. Attending officers and civilians state that the Chef was attacking security officers. People begin calling for the Chef to be turned into meat.

Officer Breeg: Let's gib him now.
Officer Czar (over radio): I kinda wanna let him live
Adamn: open the gibber
HoS: how is he bad no no no wait
Officer Yang: He tried to kill me. Right here.
Officer Czar: I say we pax him. he can't attack people then
Detective Chug: being a catgirl. being black. something like that.
Chaplain: He was attacking officers
Adamn: he tried taking the catgirl into kitchen for cqc
Officer Yang: And yeah, he was italian
Adamn: then he cqced me
Officer Yang: That's what I said.
Chaplain : This is after he said he was going after sec
HoS: hold the fuck up
Detective Chug: in the grinder. turn them to meatballs.

At 47:16, Adamn puts the Chef in an aggressive grab. These are the final seconds before the gibbing. Another Officer looks through his belongings, and the HoS comments on the presence of a flash.

Officer Breeg: bro he is clean.
HoS: Is that a flash?

At 47:31, Adamn gibs the Chef.

At 47:34, the Captain states the following. It's not entirely certain what she is referring to from the logs.
Captain (Over Radio): I give HoS full authority

At 47:35
HoS: well, good meat
Officer Breeg: normal flash *claps*
HoS: now we can't check if he was rev or no

A few seconds later at 47:57, the HoS is called to the prisoner education chamber by the Warden, and leaves the scene.
---

Make of the above what you will. The moments leading up to the gibbing were confused and chaotic, with a number of people accusing the Chef of being an antagonist and calling for his death. While the HoS tries to slow things down, the Chef gets gibbed anyway. While the HoS expressed regret that they could no longer confirm whether Chef really was a revolutionary, he did not reprimand Adamn, the other officers, or the mob for the gibbing of the Chef. The Captain apparently issued authorization to the HoS for an execution seconds after the execution happened.

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XivilaiAnaxes
 
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:02 am #581171

I think the precedent regarding round removal is more that the corpse was gibbed. Admins will usually whinge at you for throwing a corpse into the SM as well.

This is because of the "slight" chance that they'll be revived and brought back into the round somehow.

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WineAllWine
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby WineAllWine » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:13 pm #581258

Well I think others above have, quite helpfully given some explanation as to why I came to the conclusion I did - Were this an execution with the HoS / captain approval I would have taken no action (unless I considered them to have been acting on flimsy evidence, in which case it would have been on them). As a sec officer, if you round remove someone you should be pretty sure they are a very bad guy.

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WineAllWine
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby WineAllWine » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:54 am #581329

Hello,

This ban is over now - Unless you'd like to appeal the contents of the ban message I think this issue is probably resolved?

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Domitius
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Re: [Wineallwine] Ricardomilos - banned for nothing

Postby Domitius » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:40 pm #581422

Hi! I want to step in on this appeal and expand upon our reasoning.

Before we start I want to state that this ban(Now note) will be upheld as it is.

While the situation was chaotic when you gibbed the chef he was not a threat to anybody while you did the deed and could have been brought to security for processing. While the implication of him trying to drag a security officer into the kitchen is something you hopefully(and did) follow up on the step you took in gibbing them was way over the line. As Farquaar has thankfully parsed for us the HoS was explicitly trying to tell you to wait before doing so. I understand that communication can get lost it's clear that you did not have their permission to do so from their prior statements.

To bring it home as many people have already stated this is primarily about round removing somebody without proper evidence or authorization.

In the future I strongly suggest you pump the breaks in removing somebody from the round and to instead differ to command staff for permission. The best thing to take away is to try and cover your ass, if they authorize it and it was not an okay thing to do the penalty is applied to them leaving you in the clear.


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