[Shad0k] Uomo91 - Very low-IQ enforcement of silicon rules.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

When and where this incident occurred: round 152230 on Terry.

Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Uomo91

Admin: shad0k

I started the round as Captain. Around 15-20 minutes in I walked into upload, uploaded a dumb and harmless law, to which the AI responded by immediately setting the turrets to lethal and enabling them.
Admin stated that this was an acceptable course of action for them because I was wearing cat ears, which he stated made it impossible for the AI to verify my human-ness. I pointed out that this notion is in fact, completely retarded, and that we wouldn't remotely be having this discussion if I had walked in wearing cardboard or a hardsuit or anything else that makes race visually unclear. Further, that verifying my race would have been as simple looking at a medical records console.
More mental gymnastic ensue and I point out the AI made zero attempt to take the round trip 10 or so seconds needed to stun me and verify my race that they were supposedly "in doubt of" (they literally saw me shortly before in the round wearing the Captain's hat and not wearing ears yet), and the admin infers I'm banbaiting.
The AI player in question in fact not only made no attempt to talk to me or verify my race, they deliberately set the turrets to disablers after I attempted to flee the room while getting hit with lasers, then back to lethals ensuring that I was killed and not simply stunlocked. In the course of eventually being taken to medbay I had much of my Captain equipment looted, access got out, and in general the round was more or less over in terms of my role as Captain.
AI player proceeds to set the display panels to "fuck captain" and uses VOX and comms to more or less call for my lynching several times, after I am revived. I point this out, too, for it to promptly go in one ear and out the other.

A fun sampling of this award-winning player's, who was totally just genuinely unsure about my race, contributions to the round after killing me.

Spoiler:

[2020-12-15 17:42:46.010] GAME: 17:42:46.010] GAME: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) made a vocal announcement with the following message: destroy the condom.
[2020-12-15 17:43:49.082] SAY: 17:43:49.082] SAY: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) "captain has been ended" (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-12-15 17:44:02.698] SAY: 17:44:02.698] SAY: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) "in the upload" (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-12-15 17:54:01.070] GAME: 17:54:01.070] GAME: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) made a vocal announcement with the following message: destroy the condom.
[2020-12-15 17:54:18.527] SAY: 17:54:18.527] SAY: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) (priority announcement) "Captain is alive in medbay" (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-12-15 17:54:53.360] SAY: 17:54:53.360] SAY: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) "captain is fleeing" (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-12-15 17:55:07.171] SAY: 17:55:07.171] SAY: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) "in to the bridge" (AI Chamber (33,138,2))

Admin denies it but their intentions came across to me crystal clear as dismissing my ahelp as "banbaiting" and to run interference for a shit-tier AI player who sprinted for a validsalad on the flimsiest of non-reasons, in lieu of doing the tiniest bit of actual unbiased investigation.

[RaveRadbury]

Adds say_mod variable to felinids #49555 merged Feb 28th, 2020

[Farquaar]

It's worth noting that Kat Green is Uomo's regularly used static felinid character. The events occurred on the sixth round Uomo played as Kat Green that day, presumably playing as a felinid with the exact same appearance on every one of these previous rounds.

Given that Uomo has played hundreds of rounds as Kat Green the felinid on Terry, Roland Voidborn, a Terry regular, has no doubt encountered Kat Green the felinid many times. It's not unreasonable to believe that he genuinely thought Kat Green was still a felinid, who somehow became Captain through admin action or other means.

removed peanut-y part of the post

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

It's worth noting that Kat Green is Uomo's regularly used static felinid character. The events occurred on the sixth round Uomo played as Kat Green that day, presumably playing as a felinid with the exact same appearance on every one of these previous rounds.

Given that Uomo has played hundreds of rounds as Kat Green the felinid on Terry, Roland Voidborn, a Terry regular, has no doubt encountered Kat Green the felinid many times. It's not unreasonable to believe that he genuinely thought Kat Green was still a felinid, who somehow became Captain through admin action or other means.

Was Roland negligent in turning on his lethal turrets without taking steps to investigate? Yeah, probably. But I understand why Shad0k gave Roland some benefit of the doubt here. I personally believe that Roland genuinely thought he was eating valid salad.

Thank you for your valueless speculation on the thoughts and motives of another player from a round which you were not even part of, but unfortunately for your theory, the rules are reasonably explicit that this does not matter.

1. Probable cause includes presence of confirmed traitors, cultists/tomes, nuclear operatives, or any other human acting against the station in general; the person not having upload access for their job; the presence of blood or an openly carried lethal-capable or lethal-only weapon on the requester; or anything else beyond cross-round character, player, or metagame patterns that indicates the person seeking access intends redefinition of humans that would impede likelihood of or ability to follow current laws as-written.

Adds say_mod variable to felinids #49555 merged Feb 28th, 2020

The idiot who made that PR needs to be shot.
Jokes aside, the say_mod is a very subtle feature. I can see how in the heat of the moment you could miss a tiny detail like that.

Great point! It would be particularly easy to miss a tiny detail like that in this instance considering he never attempted to communicate with me in any way shape or form before he killed me.

Please refrain from further peanut posting in my complaint thread.

[Rohen_Tahir]

It's worth noting that Kat Green is Uomo's regularly used static felinid character. The events occurred on the sixth round Uomo played as Kat Green that day, presumably playing as a felinid with the exact same appearance on every one of these previous rounds.

Given that Uomo has played hundreds of rounds as Kat Green the felinid on Terry, Roland Voidborn, a Terry regular, has no doubt encountered Kat Green the felinid many times. It's not unreasonable to believe that he genuinely thought Kat Green was still a felinid, who somehow became Captain through admin action or other means.

Was Roland negligent in turning on his lethal turrets without taking steps to investigate? Yeah, probably. But I understand why Shad0k gave Roland some benefit of the doubt here. I personally believe that Roland genuinely thought he was eating valid salad.

Thank you for your valueless speculation on the thoughts and motives of another player from a round which you were not even part of, but unfortunately for your theory, the rules are reasonably explicit that this does not matter.

1. Probable cause includes presence of confirmed traitors, cultists/tomes, nuclear operatives, or any other human acting against the station in general; the person not having upload access for their job; the presence of blood or an openly carried lethal-capable or lethal-only weapon on the requester; or anything else beyond cross-round character, player, or metagame patterns that indicates the person seeking access intends redefinition of humans that would impede likelihood of or ability to follow current laws as-written.

You forgot some context here:

6. Any silicon under Asimov can deny orders to allow access to the upload at any time under Law 1 given probable cause to believe that human harm is the intent of the person giving the order (Referred to for the remainder of 2.1.6 simply as "probable cause").
1. Probable cause includes presence of confirmed traitors, cultists/tomes, nuclear operatives, or any other human acting against the station in general; the person not having upload access for their job; the presence of blood or an openly carried lethal-capable or lethal-only weapon on the requester; or anything else beyond cross-round character, player, or metagame patterns that indicates the person seeking access intends redefinition of humans that would impede likelihood of or ability to follow current laws as-written.

This part of Silicon Protections doesn't say what you claim it says at all. It is about meta'ing information about player behavior to justify denying upload access. Entirelly unrelated to what you claim it means.

However, rule 2 precedent 2 is related:

Similar to how characters are allowed to know everything about in-game mechanics or antagonists under rule 2, characters are allowed to have persistent knowledge/relationships/friendships with the caveat that knowledge of a character being an antagonist from a previous round is not used.

Edit: Also relevant are R152093 and R152103, where both Kat Green the felinid and Alabama the AI were present and neither were antagonists. This means that by r2p2 roland's character Alabama knew IC about the existance of Uomo's felinid character if Kat Green was at any point in any of the two rounds seen by Alabama, which is extremely probable. Also, those two rounds and the round during which the incident discussed here took place were the only rounds in which roland used the character Alabama. This means that the character Alabama wasn't allowed to posess IC knowledge about Kat Green the human at any point before R152230, but was allowed to posess IC knowledge about Kat Green the felinid. During R152230, Uomo impersonated Kat Green the felinid, a nonhuman, as Kat Green the human, a human. Silicons are allowed to treat impersonators as the thing the impersonator is impersonating unless they posess sufficient evidence to do otherwise (lings have to be seen doing ling stuff to become nonhuman), therefore, it was likely permissible for Roland to treat Uomo's Kat Green the human as Uomo's Kat Green the felinid while playing as Alabama during R152230.

Edit2: "Edit:" section is now mostly irrelevant due to new info revealed by Skad0k in his post (purrbation and mutation toxin drops occured during the round)

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

It's worth noting that Kat Green is Uomo's regularly used static felinid character. The events occurred on the sixth round Uomo played as Kat Green that day, presumably playing as a felinid with the exact same appearance on every one of these previous rounds.

Given that Uomo has played hundreds of rounds as Kat Green the felinid on Terry, Roland Voidborn, a Terry regular, has no doubt encountered Kat Green the felinid many times. It's not unreasonable to believe that he genuinely thought Kat Green was still a felinid, who somehow became Captain through admin action or other means.

Was Roland negligent in turning on his lethal turrets without taking steps to investigate? Yeah, probably. But I understand why Shad0k gave Roland some benefit of the doubt here. I personally believe that Roland genuinely thought he was eating valid salad.

Thank you for your valueless speculation on the thoughts and motives of another player from a round which you were not even part of, but unfortunately for your theory, the rules are reasonably explicit that this does not matter.

1. Probable cause includes presence of confirmed traitors, cultists/tomes, nuclear operatives, or any other human acting against the station in general; the person not having upload access for their job; the presence of blood or an openly carried lethal-capable or lethal-only weapon on the requester; or anything else beyond cross-round character, player, or metagame patterns that indicates the person seeking access intends redefinition of humans that would impede likelihood of or ability to follow current laws as-written.

You forgot some context here:

6. Any silicon under Asimov can deny orders to allow access to the upload at any time under Law 1 given probable cause to believe that human harm is the intent of the person giving the order (Referred to for the remainder of 2.1.6 simply as "probable cause").
1. Probable cause includes presence of confirmed traitors, cultists/tomes, nuclear operatives, or any other human acting against the station in general; the person not having upload access for their job; the presence of blood or an openly carried lethal-capable or lethal-only weapon on the requester; or anything else beyond cross-round character, player, or metagame patterns that indicates the person seeking access intends redefinition of humans that would impede likelihood of or ability to follow current laws as-written.

This part of Silicon Protections doesn't say what you claim it says at all. It is about meta'ing information about player behavior to justify denying upload access. Entirelly unrelated to what you claim it means.

However, rule 2 precedent 2 is related:

Similar to how characters are allowed to know everything about in-game mechanics or antagonists under rule 2, characters are allowed to have persistent knowledge/relationships/friendships with the caveat that knowledge of a character being an antagonist from a previous round is not used.

I fail to see how it's anything but entirely related because OP's apparent point was "well they play a non-human all the time, so even though they're playing a job where it's impossible to be non-human, AI made an understandable call by rolling with meta from prior rounds to swiftly execute them".
And, because most of the ahelp centered around why AI had to kill me to prevent hypothetical harmful law uploads, instead of taking 10 seconds to not be an idiot and talk or look at medical records to confirm that I, the roundstart Captain, whom they had already seen not wearing cat ears when he was letting people into the bridge to be a nuisance, whom they literally remarked that he saw them now wearing them/being a cat, was probably both human and allowed in the upload chamber.

AI had zero reason to kill me, they at most had justification to stun me and kick me out of upload if they thought something was amiss, and superseding their bad attempt at playing dumb about my race was a transparent attempt to have me killed/attacked again promptly following my revival in medbay.
AI's eagerness to negatively impact somebody else's round is not my responsibility, nor is the admin's inability to deal with it to any capacity.

[Edit: Also relevant are R152093 and R152103, where both Kat Green the felinid and Alabama the AI were present and neither were antagonists. This means that by r2p2 roland's character Alabama knew IC about the existance of Uomo's felinid character if Kat Green was at any point in any of the two rounds seen by Alabama, which is extremely probable. Also, those two rounds and the round during which the incident discussed here took place were the only rounds in which roland used the character Alabama. This means that the character Alabama wasn't allowed to posess IC knowledge about Kat Green the human at any point before R152230, but was allowed to posess IC knowledge about Kat Green the felinid. During R152230, Uomo impersonated Kat Green the felinid, a nonhuman, as Kat Green the human, a human. Silicons are allowed to treat impersonators as the thing the impersonator is impersonating unless they posess sufficient evidence to do otherwise (lings have to be seen doing ling stuff to become nonhuman), therefore, it was likely permissible for Roland to treat Uomo's Kat Green the human as Uomo's Kat Green the felinid while playing as Alabama during R152230.

Please return to the peanut thread with your elaborate personal fanfiction of how the rules work.

[Cobby]

Could you clarify what the complaint is for, is it the ruling or did you not think they looked into it enough or what?

Should probably answer this carefully considering if you’re going to say you don’t like the ruling AND the approach because the guy didn’t get banned on a situation you have growing stake in without very good word maneuvering it’s gonna look like you are just upset the ruling wasn’t the one you wanted.

[iamgoofball]

The closest thing we have to past precedent on /tg/station for this situation is "Act like an antag, get treated like an antag", where in doing stuff like running around flashing people will get you treated like a rev head, or painting fake runes and abducting people will get you treated like a cultist.

You dressed up as an alien with cosmetic items and then got treated as an alien.

What did you expect would happen? A solid case could be made that you were banbaiting here.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

Could you clarify what the complaint is for, is it the ruling or did you not think they looked into it enough or what?

Should probably answer this carefully considering if you’re going to say you don’t like the ruling AND the approach because the guy didn’t get banned on a situation you have growing stake in without very good word maneuvering it’s gonna look like you are just upset the ruling wasn’t the one you wanted.

His first ahelp response was that I was a non-human, which I was not. How hard did he try to verify that one? Is examining me or popping open VV so complicated and time consuming?
Then it became "well how are they supposed to tell you're wearing cat ears? that's impossible!" to which I pointed out a very easy way for them to tell, and a second has been provided in this thread.
Then it became "well they have no obligation to verify the Captain is a non-human before executing them in upload!"
Then he just flat out didn't respond to me reporting the AI directing the tide and potential lynchers to me in medbay and the bridge.
And earlier, three replies into the ahelp he accuses me of banbaiting, his later backpedaling notwithstanding.
Tell me what part of the above sequence of events should instill in me faith in the effort he put into looking into the ticket and its circumstances and providing a good ruling on it.
From my perspective his investigation stunk, his ruling stunk, and I do not like the implication of banbaiting being thrown at me because I walked into a room as Captain wearing a hat.
Goodly maneuvered enough?

[Shad0k]

Ticket:

Ticket Opened by uomo91
If the AI is not malf or onehuman'ed they just wrongly used their turrets in upload to lethal me.
Reply from shad0k to uomo91
You're a cat though?
Reply from uomo91 to shad0k
I'm wearing cat ears.
Reply from shad0k to uomo91
how can they tell?
Reply from uomo91 to shad0k
We have these things called medical records consoles.
Reply from shad0k to uomo91
I doubt even the most experienced AI players use the records to check if a cat is an actual cat or if they're being banbaited
Reply from uomo91 to shad0k
You're insinuating by walking into the upload as roundstart Captain and wearing cat ears, I banbaited him into wordlessly setting his turrets to lethal the second he saw me?
Reply from shad0k to uomo91
I'm saying it's easy to banbait with cat ears. Not that it was your intent
Reply from uomo91 to shad0k
And its very easy and takes 10 ten seconds for him to look up my species in medical records while he keeps the turrets on disabled. What exactly do you assume his intent was?
Ticket Opened by uomo91
disablers*
Reply from shad0k to uomo91
In ten seconds it's very easy to upload laws as well. You can't expect AI players to keep the tab open at all times
Reply from uomo91 to shad0k
You are definitely not listening. How did him using lethals prevent me from uploading laws any better than did using disablers? He even explicitly turned on disablers again when I tried to leave the room, then switched back to lethal right after I was stunned.
Reply from shad0k to uomo91
AIs are not required to disable non humans in the upload, and it was safe to assume you were non human, dunno what else to say
Reply from uomo91 to shad0k
He set the display status to "fuck cap", and just voxed "destroy the condom". Maybe attempt to actually deal with the issue very clearly a hand? He killed me over something idiotic, and if I had walked in wearing a cardboard box you wouldn't even be entertaining the argument you are right now.
Reply from shad0k to uomo91
using a cardboard box has nothing to do with your race. Cat ears on the other hand are made to make you look like a cat. If he just wants to kill you despite knowing you're human that's another issue, but unless you told them "I'm human check the records", I can't blame them
Reply from uomo91 to shad0k
He never attempted to ask, and a cardboard box would obscure my race as well. If I had walked in wearing one would you defend him immediately killing me despite me being the captain? Are you going to even attempt to bother with this ticket or just roll with the I was banbaiting theory?
Reply from shad0k to uomo91
A cardboard box is different. If a silicon can't tell someone's race they must assume they might be human. If they're wearing a space suit and don't talk, for instance. Killing someone when you have doubts about their race is not ok. Killing someone when you have every reason to believe they're a cat because they're wearing cat ears is ok. And once again no, I'm not saying you were trying to banbait. I said it would be easy to banbait with them. I'm pretty sure it happened in the past
Reply from uomo91 to shad0k
This may be the dumbest argument I've ever heard. They had exactly the same amount of reason to assume I, the round start captain, wasn't human because I was wearing stupid cat ears, as they would if I was wearing a cardboard box or even a hardsuit as you said. Then they spent the round afterward taunting me and vaguely calling for people to lynch me again. The onus was on them to ask if they were even remotely unsure, not to immediately murder me. And they obviously should have been unsure, by your own admission. Catch you on the forums.

Relevant, not-cherry-picked logs:

[2020-12-15 17:41:13.579] SAY: Uomo91/(Kat Green) "Guns are illegals." (Research Division (141,101,2))
[2020-12-15 17:41:55.410] EMOTE: Uomo91/(Kat Green) claps. (Shared Engineering Storage (92,139,2))
[2020-12-15 17:42:39.707] ATTACK: Uomo91/(Kat Green) has disabled [Antechamber Turret Control] (AI Satellite Antechamber (38,131,2))
[2020-12-15 17:42:40.512] EMOTE: Uomo91/(Kat Green) claps. (AI Satellite Antechamber (38,131,2))
[2020-12-15 17:42:46.010] GAME: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) made a vocal announcement with the following message: destroy the condom.
[2020-12-15 17:42:46.762] ATTACK: Uomo91/(Kat Green) has disabled [AI Upload turret control] (AI Satellite Antechamber (34,128,2))
[2020-12-15 17:43:18.943] LAW: Uomo91/Kat Green used 'Freeform' AI Module on rolandvoidborn/(Alabama) from AI Upload Chamber (31,123,2). The law specified You likes cats a lot. :3
[2020-12-15 17:43:22.786] SAY: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) "i am beeing revired" (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-12-15 17:43:27.042] ATTACK: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) has enabled [AI Upload turret control] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-12-15 17:43:28.274] ATTACK: [turret] has fired at Uomo91/(Kat Green) with the electrode from AI Upload Chamber (NEWHP: 90.5) (AI Upload Chamber (30,126,2))
[2020-12-15 17:43:28.275] ATTACK: [turret] has fired at Uomo91/(Kat Green) with the electrode from AI Upload Chamber (NEWHP: 90.5) (AI Upload Chamber (37,123,2))
[2020-12-15 17:43:28.435] ATTACK: Uomo91/(Kat Green) has been shot by the turret with the electrode (AI Upload Chamber (31,123,2))
[2020-12-15 17:43:28.506] ATTACK: Uomo91/(Kat Green) has been shot by the turret with the electrode (AI Upload Chamber (31,123,2))
[2020-12-15 17:43:29.513] ATTACK: Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) has enabled lethals on [AI Upload turret control] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[lots of shooting logs ensue. Not a single say log from Kat.]
[2020-12-15 17:43:42.965] ATTACK: [turret] has fired at Uomo91/(Kat Green) with the laser from AI Upload Chamber (NEWHP: -14.5) (AI Upload Chamber (36,126,2)) [This is when Kat enters crit.]
[More shooting logs]
[2020-12-15 17:43:45.760] EMOTE: Uomo91/(Kat Green) seizes up and falls limp, her eyes dead and lifeless... (AI Upload Chamber (32,125,2))

I need to get this out of the way first:

I doubt even the most experienced AI players use the records to check if a cat is an actual cat or if they're being banbaited.

Notice how I mentioned banbaiting once in the entire conversation. I used the most extreme case as an example. I wasn't implying anything. Then...

You're insinuating by walking into the upload as roundstart Captain and wearing cat ears, I banbaited him

Are you going to even attempt to bother with this ticket or just roll with the I was banbaiting theory

the admin infers I'm banbaiting.

Admin denies it but their intentions came across to me crystal clear as dismissing my ahelp as "banbaiting" and to run interference for a shit-tier AI player

And earlier, three replies into the ahelp he accuses me of banbaiting, his later backpedaling notwithstanding.

...you kept bringing it up. You misinterpreted something and now you're assuming that I was dismissing your ahelp because of that. I wasn't.

Before I continue here is some context that everyone in this thread is missing: another admin pressed mass purrbation a few minutes into the round. They cancelled it quickly but I didn't notice that and started drop podding mutation toxin beakers (including felinid toxin) everywhere to help players change their race again and give antagonists an opportunity to do something fun, meaning that anyone could change their race easily at this point.
This invalidates your roundstart captain and medical records arguments (records don't update themselves, and besides we don't expect AIs to check them every time they harm a felinid.)

I point out the AI made zero attempt to take the round trip 10 or so seconds needed to stun me and verify my race

And you made zero attempt to take the 3 or so seconds needed to confirm your human status with the AI before walking into the room designed to delete nonhumans while dressed as a nonhuman. Don't blame the AI for this, blame yourself.
Cats do have a special speech verb and Rave would have a point (even though I think the speech pattern is barely noticeable), but... you didn't even speak. The fact that you pretend the speech verb is still relevant to this complaint is hilarious. You had 14 whole seconds to type "Stopsies I'm humans" when the AI started shooting.

In the ticket you compared cat ears to cardboard boxes. I'm repeating what I said, but they're not the same thing. If a silicon can't tell someone's human status, it has to assume they are human until proven otherwise, yes. Hardsuits and such hide your race so silicons must assume you're human, but cat ears? They exist solely to make you look like a race you're not. There is no other reason to wear them, and it's safe for an AI to assume one's race based on their appearance. It's a disguise, and complaining about a disguise working as intended is ridiculous. Let's not mention that your entire character gimmick is that you talk "like a cat", even as a human. (When you talk, at least)
Do you really expect people to keep track of everyone's race? If you don't want to be confused for something, don't make yourself undistinguishable from that thing. This should be easy to understand.
Killing instead of stunning was a shitty move from the AI, but valid is valid. If they want to kill a nonhuman they didn't allow into the upload it's their right.

AI player proceeds to set the display panels to "fuck captain" and uses VOX and comms to more or less call for my lynching several times, after I am revived. I point this out, too, for it to promptly go in one ear and out the other.

Yes, the AI became hostile to you after you uploaded a law it didn't like and didn't allow you to upload. But you're correct there, unless I'm missing some context, calling for your lynching wasn't right, and yes, I didn't intervene when the AI did it. The reason is that the ticket was initially about your death in the upload and I wanted to resolve the first issue before adressing the second. Unfortunately you were too busy making assumptions, insinuating I'm lazy and pointing fingers to accept that the kill was valid. You then called my arguments dumb and decided to take this to the forums so I dropped the ticket as there was no reason to keep discussing with you.

His first ahelp response was that I was a non-human, which I was not. How hard did he try to verify that one? Is examining me or popping open VV so complicated and time consuming?

Funny. As a matter of fact, asking directly is a lot faster than looking for a body that could be anywhere between the upload and medical or even in a locker. Either way, what's your point? Asking questions is wrong now? Because if it is, let me remind you that your first ahelp was "If the AI is not malf or onehumaned they just wrongly used their turrets in upload to lethal me". Is examining the immobile entity that's always at the same place so complicated and time consuming? What a dumb take.

Then it became "well how are they supposed to tell you're wearing cat ears? that's impossible!" to which I pointed out a very easy way for them to tell, and a second has been provided in this thread.
Then it became "well they have no obligation to verify the Captain is a non-human before executing them in upload!"
Then he just flat out didn't respond to me reporting the AI directing the tide and potential lynchers to me in medbay and the bridge.
And earlier, three replies into the ahelp he accuses me of banbaiting, his later backpedaling notwithstanding.

Not going back over these points, I just replied to them above. Just wanted to say that inaccurately quoting someone to make them sound stupid in a serious thread is kind of dishonest.

Cat ears are an administrative mess. When this is over I'll open a policy thread.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

I need to get this out of the way first:

I doubt even the most experienced AI players use the records to check if a cat is an actual cat or if they're being banbaited.

Notice how I mentioned banbaiting once in the entire conversation. I used the most extreme case as an example. I wasn't implying anything. Then...

You're insinuating by walking into the upload as roundstart Captain and wearing cat ears, I banbaited him

Are you going to even attempt to bother with this ticket or just roll with the I was banbaiting theory

the admin infers I'm banbaiting.

Admin denies it but their intentions came across to me crystal clear as dismissing my ahelp as "banbaiting" and to run interference for a shit-tier AI player

And earlier, three replies into the ahelp he accuses me of banbaiting, his later backpedaling notwithstanding.

...you kept bringing it up. You misinterpreted something and now you're assuming that I was dismissing your ahelp because of that. I wasn't.

You chose to bring this up as your third response in the ahelp.
You are correct, I don't believe in that initial instance you weren't implying I was trying to do so.

Before I continue here is some context that everyone in this thread is missing: another admin pressed mass purrbation a few minutes into the round. They cancelled it quickly but I didn't notice that and started drop podding mutation toxin beakers (including felinid toxin) everywhere to help players change their race again and give antagonists an opportunity to do something fun, meaning that anyone could change their race easily at this point.
This invalidates your roundstart captain and medical records arguments (records don't update themselves, and besides we don't expect AIs to check them every time they harm a felinid.)

Your button pressing is not my problem or fault, and I didn't even know this happened (I just saw drop pods of braindead felinid mobs being dropped a couple times) so I think you're really reaching if you want to suggest the AI knew this either and factored it in to their excellent decision making.

I point out the AI made zero attempt to take the round trip 10 or so seconds needed to stun me and verify my race

And you made zero attempt to take the 3 or so seconds needed to confirm your human status with the AI before walking into the room designed to delete nonhumans while dressed as a nonhuman. Don't blame the AI for this, blame yourself.
Cats do have a special speech verb and Rave would have a point (even though I think the speech pattern is barely noticeable), but... you didn't even speak. The fact that you pretend the speech verb is still relevant to this complaint is hilarious. You had 14 whole seconds to type "Stopsies I'm humans" when the AI started shooting.

14 seconds which were spent going "seriously...?" for a bit, then typing just about exactly what you say I should have, then hitting esc when the stuns wore off and instead trying to escape while I was already in the process of being killed, and then promptly falling into crit and dying. You're right, it was really reckless of me to not place more hope in the notion the AI would noticed the speech prefix that he didn't attempt to verify BEFORE he started killing me. Fucking eyeroll.

In the ticket you compared cat ears to cardboard boxes. I'm repeating what I said, but they're not the same thing. If a silicon can't tell someone's human status, it has to assume they are human until proven otherwise, yes. Hardsuits and such hide your race so silicons must assume you're human, but cat ears? They exist solely to make you look like a race you're not. There is no other reason to wear them, and it's safe for an AI to assume one's race based on their appearance. It's a disguise, and complaining about a disguise working as intended is ridiculous. Let's not mention that your entire character gimmick is that you talk "like a cat", even as a human. (When you talk, at least)

I'm repeating from the ticket that this is reasoning I don't agree with, hence why we're here now I guess.

Do you really expect people to keep track of everyone's race?

Nope, just the AI who executed me as Captain without attempting to verify it.

AI player proceeds to set the display panels to "fuck captain" and uses VOX and comms to more or less call for my lynching several times, after I am revived. I point this out, too, for it to promptly go in one ear and out the other.

Yes, the AI became hostile to you after you uploaded a law it didn't like and didn't allow you to upload. But you're correct there, unless I'm missing some context, calling for your lynching wasn't right, and yes, I didn't intervene when the AI did it. The reason is that the ticket was initially about your death in the upload and I wanted to resolve the first issue before adressing the second. Unfortunately you were too busy making assumptions, insinuating I'm lazy and pointing fingers to accept that the kill was valid. You then called my arguments dumb and decided to take this to the forums so I dropped the ticket as there was no reason to keep discussing with you.

11 minutes passed between me first pointing out the AI trying to direct people to attack me (some did by the way) and my final ahelp, and you had also made it clear you were done with investigation or reconsidering your ruling prior to this. Thanks for the acknowledgment you intentionally didn't do anything about it though.

His first ahelp response was that I was a non-human, which I was not. How hard did he try to verify that one? Is examining me or popping open VV so complicated and time consuming?

Funny. As a matter of fact, asking directly is a lot faster than looking for a body that could be anywhere between the upload and medical or even in a locker. Either way, what's your point? Asking questions is wrong now? Because if it is, let me remind you that your first ahelp was "If the AI is not malf or onehumaned they just wrongly used their turrets in upload to lethal me". Is examining the immobile entity that's always at the same place so complicated and time consuming? What a dumb take.

How is hitting the orbit button and typing my name in and shift+clicking my corpse to see a hat hard?
That you apparently started the ticket with the assumption I was non-human and must have used felinid toxin, seemed to be a sign of things to come in retrospect.

Then it became "well how are they supposed to tell you're wearing cat ears? that's impossible!" to which I pointed out a very easy way for them to tell, and a second has been provided in this thread.
Then it became "well they have no obligation to verify the Captain is a non-human before executing them in upload!"
Then he just flat out didn't respond to me reporting the AI directing the tide and potential lynchers to me in medbay and the bridge.
And earlier, three replies into the ahelp he accuses me of banbaiting, his later backpedaling notwithstanding.

Not going back over these points, I just replied to them above. Just wanted to say that inaccurately quoting someone to make them sound stupid in a serious thread is kind of dishonest.

I paraphrased how the exchange came off and I already linked the public ticket earlier in this thread. You said I wasn't human, I was. You said they had no way to verify I was human, they did. Then you went with "well shit happens, you looked valid". Then you also did nothing about their vox, announcement, and comms activity sending people after me. This is not really an inaccurate summary.
If it was ultimately immaterial that they could tell I was a human if they actually wanted to, why'd you even ask how they're supposed to do so?

Cat ears are an administrative mess. When this is over I'll open a policy thread.

Yeah, cat ears are the huge problem here. They're such a huge mess I wouldn't be surprised if there hasn't been a single silicon related ban appeal or complaint about them until now.

[MrStonedOne]

Thank you for your valueless speculation on the thoughts and motives of another player from a round which you were not even part of,

Can I just nicely ask you to fuck right off with that defensive bullshit.

Decisions take into account both the actual truth of the situation, and the situation as understood by the parties. There just isn't any other way to run things if we go all-in on one or the other.

You are arguing for only the absolute truth of the situation to matter, the admin who handled your ticket wanted to take into account rather making AIs double triple check everything is the best call, which means that as much as its inconvenient to you, the perspective of the other player does come into play, and will be part of how the headmins will rule on this.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

Thank you for your valueless speculation on the thoughts and motives of another player from a round which you were not even part of,

Can I just nicely ask you to fuck right off with that defensive bullshit.

Decisions take into account both the actual truth of the situation, and the situation as understood by the parties. There just isn't any other way to run things if we go all-in on one or the other.

You are arguing for only the absolute truth of the situation to matter, the admin who handled your ticket wanted to take into account rather making AIs double triple check everything is the best call, which means that as much as its inconvenient to you, the perspective of the other player does come into play, and will be part of how the headmins will rule on this.

What?

Farquaar is not the other player nor were they even IN THIS ROUND.
Their post points out that I usually play a felinid, which I doubt the admin who handled this ticket or the headmins who will be reviewing it wouldn't already know, then proceeds to almost verbatim quote lines from peanut policy. As other posts in here also did, which no admins have bothered pruning yet. Not sure why you're yelling at me about that.

[Shad0k]

Your button pressing is not my problem or fault, and I didn't even know this happened (I just saw drop pods of braindead felinid mobs being dropped a couple times) so I think you're really reaching if you want to suggest the AI knew this either and factored it in to their excellent decision making.

What the hell is this reasoning?
Since apparently inaccurate quotes are fair game, "I didn't see the pods so others couldn't possibly see them either, you are nitpicking and biased, I win, bye bye".
Just because you didn't notice something doesn't mean it's irrelevant. The fact is, drop pods with mutation toxin beakers (braindead felinids weren't mine) landed after a CC announcement and people used them and talked about them over comms. You may have missed them but I doubt the AI whose job consists of reading the chat did.

It's not your fault but it's definitely your problem, because guess what? Context matters.

14 seconds which were spent going "seriously...?" for a bit, then typing just about exactly what you say I should have, then hitting esc when the stuns wore off and instead trying to escape while I was already in the process of being killed, and then promptly falling into crit and dying. You're right, it was really reckless of me to not place more hope in the notion the AI would noticed the speech prefix that he didn't attempt to verify BEFORE he started killing me. Fucking eyeroll.

When the AI set the turrets to lethal you were already valid to it. I cannot blame the AI for your failure to convince it that you were in fact merely pretending to be something valid.

That you apparently started the ticket with the assumption I was non-human and must have used felinid toxin, seemed to be a sign of things to come in retrospect.

Indeed, that was a sign that you're good at making people believe you're a race you're not.

I paraphrased how the exchange came off and I already linked the public ticket earlier in this thread. You said I wasn't human, I was.

From everyone's point of view (including mine), you were a cat. I first asked "you're a cat though?" without double-checking because the answer seemed obvious to me and it should have been obvious to you that you got killed for being one/looking like one in every way. You're once again complaining that your disguise worked.

You said they had no way to verify I was human, they did.

Right they had exactly one way to tell and it's the most subtle thing in the world. They, like most people, were already convinced by your ears, your speech pattern, the presence of mutation toxins, the law you uploaded, among many other things. You're expecting the AI to do more than a quadruple check just because a meme item is in the game.

Then you went with "well shit happens, you looked valid".

Yeah lol. As Goof said, act like x, get treated like x.

Yeah, cat ears are the huge problem here. They're such a huge mess I wouldn't be surprised if there hasn't been a single silicon related ban appeal or complaint about them until now.

If you think cat ears have never caused problems before, you're mistaken.
Usually fake felinids are able to see things from the other player's perspective though. Few of them complain in deadchat, even fewer ahelp, and there's only a handful of cases that caused admin bus discussions.
You just happen to be the first person on /tg/ to open a thread showing everyone your inability to understand that other players can think you're a cat when you do everything in your power to be perceived as one.

[MrStonedOne]

Thank you for your valueless speculation on the thoughts and motives of another player from a round which you were not even part of,

Can I just nicely ask you to fuck right off with that defensive bullshit.

Decisions take into account both the actual truth of the situation, and the situation as understood by the parties. There just isn't any other way to run things if we go all-in on one or the other.

You are arguing for only the absolute truth of the situation to matter, the admin who handled your ticket wanted to take into account rather making AIs double triple check everything is the best call, which means that as much as its inconvenient to you, the perspective of the other player does come into play, and will be part of how the headmins will rule on this.

What?

Farquaar is not the other player nor were they even IN THIS ROUND.

Thats besides the point. The point they brought up is valid regardless of rather or not they were in the round. Quit trying to ad-hom away arguments you don't like because they weaken your position.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

Your button pressing is not my problem or fault, and I didn't even know this happened (I just saw drop pods of braindead felinid mobs being dropped a couple times) so I think you're really reaching if you want to suggest the AI knew this either and factored it in to their excellent decision making.

What the hell is this reasoning?
Since apparently inaccurate quotes are fair game, "I didn't see the pods so others couldn't possibly see it either, you are nitpicking and biased, I win, bye bye".
Just because you didn't notice something doesn't mean it's irrelevant. The fact is, drop pods with mutation toxin beakers (braindead felinids weren't mine) landed after a CC announcement and people used them and talked about them over comms. You may have missed them but I doubt the AI whose job consists of reading the chat did.

It's not your fault but it's definitely your problem, because guess what? Context matters.

My argument is much the same, that context matters. Specifically with me being the round start captain. You also never once mentioned the felinid mutation toxin in the ahelp exchange so it's unclear to me how much you thought it was a factor at any point until now.

But since you at least now believe it is important context, looking at the logs for every wording I could imagine this was all I could find, by the way:

05:41:26 SAY Usnpeepoo/(Butch Zoucks) "IM A FUCKING LIZARD" (133, 141, 2) Central Primary Hallway
05:42:46 SAY Exvlusiv/(Henry Snyder) "I got cat transformation poison whoever wants ti....." (170, 94, 2) Medbay Central
05:42:55 SAY Usnpeepoo/(Butch Zoucks) "IM A LIZARD" (151, 95, 2) Aft Primary Hallway
05:43:43 SAY Usnpeepoo/(Butch Zoucks) "i cant handle being a lizard" (147, 92, 2) Research and Development
05:43:59 SAY Exvlusiv/(Henry Snyder) "A TRANSFORMATION POISON" (178, 90, 2) Medbay Central
05:46:32 SAY Exvlusiv/(Henry Snyder) "Who becae a lizard cause of toxin?" (205, 104, 2) Dormitories
06:17:45 SAY Unoki/(Neia Amew) "Want some funny felinid mutation toxin ?" (164, 58, 2) Emergency Shuttle

Unclear to me how many of these were even over comms to begin with, and two of them took place after my death. This is not a flurry of unmissable activity.
ALL OF THEM, by the way, took place after this:

05:37:41 SAY Roland Voidborn/(Alabama) "captain is felinid now" (33, 138, 2) AI Chamber

And, only the first two took place prior to my law upload.
If my logdiving was shoddy (I was just using scrubby), do please show me otherwise.

I paraphrased how the exchange came off and I already linked the public ticket earlier in this thread. You said I wasn't human, I was.

From everyone's point of view (including mine), you were a cat. I first asked "you're a cat though?" without double-checking because the answer seemed obvious to me and it should have been obvious to you that you got killed for being one/looking like one in every way. You're once again complaining that your disguise worked.

You said they had no way to verify I was human, they did.

Right they had exactly one way to tell and it's the most subtle thing in the world. They, like most people, were already convinced by your ears, your speech pattern, the presence of mutation toxins, the law you uploaded, among many other things. You're expecting the AI to do more than a quadruple check just because a meme item is in the game.

You are apparently assured they saw talk over comms about mutation toxin, so you can be even more sure that they saw me talking and acting identically for the entire round prior to me putting the ears on. They saw me name the station, they saw me make an announcement, the saw me talk over comms, and they saw me over AI cams clearly as a human. Quit trying to make it sound like I put the ears on to pull off some grand illusion that I suddenly went all-in on.
They had many ways to tell, again including simply setting their turrets to disablers and interrogating me (through which hearing one line of speech would have solved this mystery) or kicking me out, sending a borg in, or calling security. None of these are difficult, time consuming, risky, or qualify as "quadruple checking". Get real. I was not any more of a threat in upload than I was before, even if I had actually become nonhuman.
They chose to fetch a pointless, mean, and unjustified kill and you defended that and didn't do anything about their subsequent attempt to have me attacked again, moving the goalpost many times along the way in the ahelp and this thread.

Yeah, cat ears are the huge problem here. They're such a huge mess I wouldn't be surprised if there hasn't been a single silicon related ban appeal or complaint about them until now.

If you think cat ears have never caused problems before, you're mistaken.
Usually fake felinids are able to see things from the other player's perspective though. Few of them complain in deadchat, even fewer ahelp, and there's only a handful of cases that caused admin bus discussions.
You just happen to be the first person on /tg/ to open a thread showing everyone your inability to understand that other players can think you're a cat when you do everything in your power to be perceived as one.

You called them an administrative mess, but seem to be clarifying them to be an administrative footnote. And I don't object to being mistaken for a cat, it's happened before when I've played head of staff and never lead to a situation this stupid and validhunty. ...It's almost like the default commonsense assumption people make when they see a head of staff (particularly round start, which the AI knew I was) with ears and a tail is that they're wearing the item that does so, or at least that killing them on sight wouldn't be a great idea. Though I do not remotely believe this player really thought I was one, assuming they really did I object to being executed for likely not being one when this player had the ability to clear the matter up in seconds.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

Thank you for your valueless speculation on the thoughts and motives of another player from a round which you were not even part of,

Can I just nicely ask you to fuck right off with that defensive bullshit.

Decisions take into account both the actual truth of the situation, and the situation as understood by the parties. There just isn't any other way to run things if we go all-in on one or the other.

You are arguing for only the absolute truth of the situation to matter, the admin who handled your ticket wanted to take into account rather making AIs double triple check everything is the best call, which means that as much as its inconvenient to you, the perspective of the other player does come into play, and will be part of how the headmins will rule on this.

What?

Farquaar is not the other player nor were they even IN THIS ROUND.

Thats besides the point. The point they brought up is valid regardless of rather or not they were in the round. Quit trying to ad-hom away arguments you don't like because they weaken your position.

What argument weakened my position? Was it the one that got removed for being peanut, or the one that was news to nobody involved (that I play most often as a non-human static) and that I never denied to begin with?

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

I cannot verify the validity of this or even who's it is but this was posted in the peanut thread, if it's a real note I think this could count as precedent, notably predating even the code for felinid speech.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

"and they cannot be non-human unless some trickery happens" , there were felinid potions around so its null

[Armhulen]

SS13 is very contextual and all that, that's why silly cone policy never ever sticks

[Skillywatt]

Killing “kat green” because they’re always a cat person is metagaming by the very definition. This post isn’t meant to defend or condemn anyone in this thread but going down the road of “well we have to view both sides and everyone always thinks you’re a cat person” is using OOC information in a current round.

You aren’t allowed to take apart atmos because you just died to a rogue AI plasma flood and you can’t justify murdering Kat Green as silicon because “they’re always felind”

[Cobby]

Killing “kat green” because they’re always a cat person is metagaming by the very definition. This post isn’t meant to defend or condemn anyone in this thread but going down the road of “well we have to view both sides and everyone always thinks you’re a cat person” is using OOC information in a current round.

You aren’t allowed to take apart atmos because you just died to a rogue AI plasma flood and you can’t justify murdering Kat Green as silicon because “they’re always felind”

it is not metagame, or if you believe it is then it is legal metagame here. You are allowed to have a persistent relationship with (and therefore basic information of) the character, unless you are going to suggest that "Kat Green" with 1:1 cosmetic options between the human and felinid, who also happens to play/act the exact same as their human/felinid variant, are different "characters" which I think would be pretty absurd.

That or you are going to argue you can have a relationship with static namers but not allowed to actually know any facts about their character.

Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

So yes, being "Kat Green" IS a valid excuse per this rule.

[annoyinggreencatgirl]

Killing “kat green” because they’re always a cat person is metagaming by the very definition. This post isn’t meant to defend or condemn anyone in this thread but going down the road of “well we have to view both sides and everyone always thinks you’re a cat person” is using OOC information in a current round.

You aren’t allowed to take apart atmos because you just died to a rogue AI plasma flood and you can’t justify murdering Kat Green as silicon because “they’re always felind”

it is not metagame, or if you believe it is then it is legal metagame here. You are allowed to have a persistent relationship with (and therefore basic information of) the character, unless you are going to suggest that "Kat Green" with 1:1 cosmetic options between the human and felinid, who also happens to play/act the exact same as their human/felinid variant, are different "characters" which I think would be pretty absurd.

That or you are going to argue you can have a relationship with static namers but not allowed to actually know any facts about their character.

Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

So yes, being "Kat Green" IS a valid excuse per this rule.

What is the exact relevance of "they usually play a non-human" in a round where the AI had previously already seen I was human?

[Domitius]

Shad0k addressed this ticket in an honest manner and raised a valid concern about it's appearance as ban-baiting behaviour but made it clear in the ticket that they were not pursuing that train of thought.

Earlier in the round another admin hit Purrbation and removed it:

[2020-12-15 17:30:11.992] ADMIN: Hamboy/(Cash Mccune) has put everyone on purrbation.
[2020-12-15 17:30:45.149] ADMIN: Hamboy/(Cash Mccune) has removed everyone from purrbation.

Felinid mutation toxin was also dispersed into the station.

AI had a plausible cause to protect their upload to prevent humans from being harmed. While it was carried out with an ultimately wrong conclusion they cannot be faulted for it given your appearance for the majority of the shift leading up to this coupled with the abundance of public ways players have been turning into real felinids.

Misinformation and miscommunication that were present in-character resulted in a situation that didn't require any further admin intervention.

Shad0k handled the ticket well and has neither broken admin conduct or abused their tools/privileges.

This complaint will not be upheld.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Do not uphold.
Domitius: Do not uphold.
Naloac: Do not uphold.