[Melbert0 Manuel Note appeal

[Kassori]

BYOND account: Kassori
Character name: Nettles
Ban type: Server/Role/Null
Ban reason:
Ban length: As a non-antagonist chemist, injected a clown-captain-traitor with 50u sulfonal on the emergency shuttle. When the clown-captain-traitor pulled out a weapon to defend themselves, proceeded to inejct them with additional syringes (50u chloral hydrate), killing the clown-captain-traitor on the cockpit of the emergency shuttle. When asked, they had thought that the "clown-captain" gimmick was an obvious antag gimmick, giving them a valid reason to syringe them after they called the shuttle early. This breaks Manuel's validhunting rules. (We had a legitmate captain. who after hitting the clownmtain with a chlora-sulofo salvo, ordered me to shoot the clown with their clown revolver, I did, shooting myself in the face.
Time ban was placed: 2020-12-12 06:44:25
Round ID in which ban was placed:[/UNKNONN]
Why you think you should be unbanned: Clown "captain" calls shuttle at 30 minutes, clown "captain" is obviouss traitor as NT would never allow a CLOWN to be captain, and if they did, they would clealrly state so in an announcement.

When discussed in OOC, players are confused that I would earn a ban of attacking obvious traitors.
References of good conduct: If serverbanned and **especially** if permabanned, have you played on other servers during the time you were banned? Name them here, in many cases good references of conduct and character can be crucial to a successful appeal. Otherwise, feel free to remove this portion.

When making a peanut thread "clown caps are not valid?" Especially when Cencom does not confirm their valdity?

Refs of good conduct I have 1005 rounds on TG and 3 notes, one of them is blapping the clowntain. Come on, Mr Blueskies. Last time I fucked up, I self exiled Nettles for a month for accidentally max capping an apprentice. This is a bad note.

[bobbahbrown]

This happened on round 152010 on Manuel. (src, statbus, scrubby)

You were Nettles (the medical doctor, not chemist as the note incorrectly says, assuming you've copied the actual note text), and the clown was Blacklight, who was played by TheMidnightRose.

[Kassori]

thank you Mr Bee-man, it was a couple of weeks ago

[TheMidnghtRose]

Oh hey I remember this! I got forced into my clown slot and kinda shrugged for ideas. Then I decided to grab a set of wizard gear from the vendor and declare myself Wizard Captain to the HoP (A traitor that I didnt know about) He goes along with it and I become captain. And do some silly captain things before calling the shuttle when the SM nearly delammed.

The point is I hadnt bought ANY gear at all till you decided to wipe me out with the syringes. I bought the gun when my vitals dropped to under 50% and were nearing red. Wasnt able to use it on you though before dropping again when you syringed me more. I ahelped that since it seemed very valid hunty to me considering I hadnt done anything to the crew besides an early shuttle call.

[Kassori]

Hadn't done anything beside declare yourself clowntain. That is fairly relevant.

[Kassori]

Admin unironically says clown captain

[TheMidnghtRose]

Which from what I am aware, depending on the command staff, is fairly harmless for most clowns. I also declared myself as a Wizard Captain from the Wizard Federations.

What I'm saying is that the security team didn't do a damn thing about it, and neither did the rest of the command team. both of which could of shut down the gimmick at any time. Hence why I tossed the ahelp up since you were neither of those things.

Now if Rhials, who was captain, decided that I shouldn't be Clown Wizard Captain. Then sure, him murdering me wouldn't of lead to the ahelp since Captains can execute people within reason. And subverting command chain is a decent reason, specially as I also had captain gear, the disk, and the captaincy medal.

[mrmelbert]

Hey, thanks for taking your time to appeal your note. I will note that this note was applied when I was still in admin candidacy, which may or may not change how people view this appeal.

I'd like to mention that the crux of this note isn't whether a clown-captain is valid. Your reasoning for appealing this note only covers whether a clown-captain should be seen as valid / if a clown-captain is or isn't "an obvious traitor". This note was applied because I and the other admins online saw it as breaking Manuel's validhunting rules.

MRP Rule 4:

If you are not part of the security team (HoS, Sec officer, Warden, or Detective, sorry lawyers) you should not go out of your way to hunt for potential antagonists. You can defend yourself and others from violent antagonists, but you should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present...

In this case, you went out of your way to load a syringe gun with multiple bluespace syringes as a medical doctor so you could enter the cockpit at the shuttle and syringe them, partially because they decided to called the shuttle early. As such, you were noted for validhunting. Nothing in this appeal convinced me of otherwise. I will offer at least to lower the severity of the note (and fix the job to the proper one, oops).

[Kassori]

Clown captains are not a thing, clown captains are obvious traitors, even on MRP.

Clowns are NOT command staff.

Clowns are NOT command staff.

Why does a fake, traitorous command staff take priority?

After the first salvo. I was told by the actual captain TO SHOOT THEM.

Had I not, I would have taken them to a stasis bed on the evac shuttle. They would have lived.

Being that I shot an admin, there seems to be a conflict of interest here.

[TheMidnghtRose]

The conflict of interest would of been if I was the one to note you, or if I was adminned up at all during the ahelp. I did not admin up till the round rebooted as the server defaults you to being an admin if you are are one.

[Kassori]

So, besides TMR taking a gimmick to blantantly obvious antag levels, what i the appropriate escalation in this scenario? I was quite surprised when I actually killed them and did feel bad about it, but come on, they were as obvious as a nuke op.

[Kassori]

Validhunting and security.
If you are not part of the security team (HoS, Sec officer, Warden, or Detective, sorry lawyers) you should not go out of your way to hunt for potential antagonists. You can defend yourself and others from violent antagonists, but you should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present. The exception to this rule is when game modes such as blob or nuke ops appear on the server - you are free to fully engage with these antagonists, after all, they're a pretty massive threat to everyone onboard.

Beides, I was on the escape shuttle itss not like I hunted them to pods, this is where I am expected to go as a normal crew member. The fact they were in the command quarters, as a clown, when I myself was let in as a doctor should be irrelevant.

I prepared knockout drugs, intended to be non-harmful, admittedly, my math on the toxin damage was off, and that is solely my fault.

However - When you do something as blatant and loud as clown-tain traitor, you should expect people gunning for you.

I'd also like to point out that a 30 minute shuttle call is pretty significant. The whole ordeal played out like a sybil round.

[Timberpoes]

Clown Captain is within the limits of SS13 gimmicks on MRP and is something that does legitimately happen regardless of the Clown's antag status.

There is no policy, precedent or rule that states any Captain that wasn't a roundstart Head of Staff is a traitor and is instantly valid.

Likewise, there is no policy, precedent or rule prohibiting any crew member from eventually becoming Captain, including Clowns.

It usually occurs when there's no official captain and an acting captain or other Head of Staff decides that today is the day most Clowns dream of and they get legitimate authority to hold the Captain's Spare. It falls well within https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Roleplay_Rules Roleplay Rule 9.

(Emphasis mine)

Play as a coherent, believable character.
Real life realism is not required, and you are encouraged to be a little silly within the context of the SS13 game world. (Clowning around, people spontaneously exploding and creating ridiculously elaborate machinery are all non-serious things but yet a vital part of the game world.) There's a good chance your character still wants to have a job at the end of the day, so you should probably act like it.

Furthermore, you should not be stepping into security's lane. You can defend yourself and others from violent antagonists but you should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present. This is all covered by https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Roleplay_Rules Roleplay Rule 4 and Roleplay Rule 10.

(Emphasis mine)

Validhunting and security.
If you are not part of the security team (HoS, Sec officer, Warden, or Detective, sorry lawyers) you should not go out of your way to hunt for potential antagonists. You can defend yourself and others from violent antagonists, but you should not act like a vigilante if a security force is present. The exception to this rule is when game modes such as blob or nuke ops appear on the server - you are free to fully engage with these antagonists, after all, they're a pretty massive threat to everyone onboard.

Stay in your lane.
Stay in your lane. This mean that you should do the job you signed up for and not try and do other people’s jobs for them. If you need something from another player you should attempt to ask them to get it for you instead of just taking it. If there is no one around to do a job or you get permission to help or grab something it is acceptable to stray from your lane.

Compared to LRP, MRP antags do get additional protections from the roleplay rules and are not instantly valid to the whole crew without a good IC justification. (RP Rule 4, RP Rule 6 and RP Security Policy & Precedents). What constitutes good IC justification is always going to be an admin judgement call.

[Kassori]

Cool, I hope you decide to take that clown ruling seriously and establish a precedent, because when I was bwoinked and talked about it in OOC, the general consensus was confusion, and that they thought that clown-tains were valid.

Almost like it has no place on MRP. Because what corporation would allow the "real and believable character" of a clown to lead what is basically an oil platform in space?

Lets not forget, calling the shuttle at 30 minutes? On MRP? Dick move. My actions had no impact on the round, the shuttle was already called, crew was already on it, there were no casualties other than the clown calling the shuttle at 30 minutes because they already fulfilled their greentext. Calling the shuttle when you've gotten your objectives is also considered pretty lame on Manuel.

[TheMidnghtRose]

This is prob going to be peanut. But the reason we called the shuttle was the rapid delam of the SM. Otherwise I would of done the inspection of the various departments that I was planning.

They only fixed right after the point of no return on we (Me and the HoP) red alerted when the SM dropped below 30%. I hate doing short rounds on MRP. I would of let the gimmick run longer otherwise.

[Domitius]

This sort of behavior wouldn't fly on the regular servers either. Clowns being captains has never made them "valid" and is a pretty common gimmick so I'm sorry that you had players feed you that misinformation. If you walk around with a syringe gun full of sulfonal looking for a reason to pump somebody full of it you have the duty of making sure that whoever you are doing it to is actually an antagonist before you open fire.

On station command staff have the authority to legitimately promote other members of the crew within their power. So the clown was a legitimate part of command staff after the HoP promoted them.

Melbert already went over the MRP rule 4 pretty thoroughly so I differ to his post.

Being that I shot an admin, there seems to be a conflict of interest here.

I cannot deny that there may be a conflict of interest. However admins play just as much as players do so instances like these will eventually happen and must be looked at as objectively as possible. They will be treated just as if there are any other player.

This note is valid and is merely a record of the interaction. It will be upheld.